What does re-opening look like?

masik

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At this point, we don't know how long it will take to get an effective treatment or a vaccine; even if there is a vaccine, nobody knows how much protection it will afford. On the one hand, that means we have to be cautious, open things up gradually and take reasonable precautions. On the other hand, it means that we have to figure out a way to live with this, and that means going beyond only opening up essential places. That's an appropriate step when things are only getting back to normal, but it leaves too many people without sources of income, social and spiritual support.

I'm not remotely religious, so I don't understand the need to pray at a synagogue, a church of a mosque. But clearly there are people for whom their religious traditions are very much important, and faith communities are also a source of social and emotional support (which many people desperately need these days). If it's done carefully, with a limited number of people present at any one time and best public health practices, opening religious institutions can probably be a net positive.

As I wrote, not every country can keep businesses and people financially afloat over an extended period of time. So you weigh the risk of allowing businesses to open, and in some places it is low enough that you can go ahead.

There isn't going to be a one-size fits all approach to dealing with CV at the country/regional level. If you look at the NYT link I posted about New Zealand, you can see that Jacinda Ardern isn't wearing a mask. Does anyone doubt that she's responsible and attentive to the public health concerns? What's right in New Zealand is different from what will work best for Israel, or Senegal, or Germany, or of course the US. And I think it's worth remembering that as we discuss things - yes, it's a global pandemlc affecting us all, but it's hitting different places in different ways, and that affects our perspectives.
This is how my more religious friend answered this question:

”Praying from anywhere works. However, many of us find great comfort in worshipping with our fellow parishioners.
Also, the the sacrament of Holy Communion is a very important part of the Catholic Church. This sacrament is not done outside of mass“.

So it is important/essential for some people...
 

becca

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Church may not be essential for all of you but it is Essential for some.

Catholic worship is different than Protestant Worship it’s centered on the Eucharist. I cannot receive this virtually.

A vaccine may be years away.

I am part of a team that’s going to sanitize after mass. Masks are required except for taking Communion. They’re is literally stickers on the pews to indicate six feet. And yes only the choir will sing. Church sanitized after every mass.

Ushers will seat people. There are a lot of safety measures being taken.

Do I think the regular way with people packed together lightening rod yes. But with all these precautions being taken. If the ***** numbers going down I think we are doing our best.

And I know the Archbishop will suspend again if numbers go up.
 
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MacMadame

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”Praying from anywhere works. However, many of us find great comfort in worshipping with our fellow parishioners.
You can do that via Zoom / Facebook live

Catholic worship is different than Protestant Worship it’s centered on the Eucharist. I cannot receive this virtually.
You probably could. I know they tell us that it is literally Jesus' body but it clearly isn't literally a piece of a person. There's no reason people couldn't have a piece of bread at home that the priest says the prayer and it "becomes" Christ just as much as it does in a church building.
 

skatfan

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Church may not be essential for all of you but it is Essential for some.

Catholic worship is different than Protestant Worship it’s centered on the Eucharist. I cannot receive this virtually.

A vaccine may be years away.

I am part of a team that’s going to sanitize after mass. Masks are required except for taking Communion. They’re is literally stickers on the pews to indicate six feet. And yes only the choir will sing. Church sanitized after every mass.

Ushers will seat people. There are a lot of safety measures being taken.

Do I think the regular way with people packed together lightening rod yes. But with all these precautions being taken. If the ***** numbers going down I think we are doing our best.

And I know the Archbishop will suspend again if numbers go up.
Sounds like your diocese is doing good work. I pray it is enough. We're still in the "when do we try" stage, and partly it is our demographics, so we're doing a survey. It's not easy work, anyone who thinks it is - don't go to that church!
 

skatfan

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You probably could. I know they tell us that it is literally Jesus' body but it clearly isn't literally a piece of a person. There's no reason people couldn't have a piece of bread at home that the priest says the prayer and it "becomes" Christ just as much as it does in a church building.
Different Christian traditions are coming down differently on this. Catholics and Episcopalians also emphasize being the Body of Christ gathered in one physical space, and specific consecration of the elements by the priest so our local Episcopalians are going without until they can get into one room.

That contrasts with us heretic Lutheran and Presbyterians who don't have a problem with virtual communion. I'm even permitting our non-technic folks getting communion on the phone because I think it's the right thing to do.
 

becca

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Sounds like your diocese is doing good work. I pray it is enough. We're still in the "when do we try" stage, and partly it is our demographics, so we're doing a survey. It's not easy work, anyone who thinks it is - don't go to that church!
I know a number of people who won’t be going to Mass so not all will go. I feel like If I am going to take the risk of going I should also be willing to serve which is why I am helping with the clean up team.

Catholics do not believe any individual can pray over the host and it will become the Body of Christ.

There is the concept of Spiritual Communion but not the same. For the record Mass was cancelled here for two months.

My Mom has no problem with taking Communion by herself but she also doesn’t believe in the Real Presence.
 

canbelto

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I know a number of people who won’t be going to Mass so not all will go. I feel like If I am going to take the risk of going I should also be willing to serve which is why I am helping with the clean up team.

Catholics do not believe any individual can pray over the host and it will become the Body of Christ.

There is the concept of Spiritual Communion but not the same. For the record Mass was cancelled here for two months.

My Mom has no problem with taking Communion by herself but she also doesn’t believe in the Real Presence.
Well your church seems to be taking a lot of precautions so that's good. But not all churches that are opening are as responsible. Governors have to weigh that knowledge when they make decisions.
 

becca

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Well your church seems to be taking a lot of precautions so that's good. But not all churches that are opening are as responsible. Governors have to weigh that knowledge when they make decisions.
Well Churches should be responsible no doubt. The restrictions though are from our Archbishop people will be turned away to many people. He got criticism for canceling Mass.
 

sk8pics

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And yes only the choir will sing.
You're having a choir sing? :eek: That is one of the things expressly forbidden here. I hope all the members will be six feet apart from any other person there. In which case, it becomes less like a choir and more like people in the congregation singing.
 

MacMadame

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Catholics and Episcopalians also emphasize being the Body of Christ gathered in one physical space, and specific consecration of the elements by the priest so our local Episcopalians are going without until they can get into one room.
I was raised Catholic both before and after Vatican II so I know both what they say now and what they used to say. If the Pope were to announce that the Priest does not have to be physically in the room with the host to cause the transformation, then that would be it and doing it over Zoom would work just fine. To me, that's a less radical change that moving the mass from Latin to English or saying confession isn't always necessary before taking communion.

Catholics do not believe any individual can pray over the host and it will become the Body of Christ.
I didn't say any individual. I said a priest but over Zoom.

I hope all the members will be six feet apart from any other person there.
Unless they are outside, they should be farther than 6 ft apart. Or they'll be like that WA choir where one person infected 2/3 of the choir.
 

el henry

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For Episcopalians, I would suspect, although not a tenet, that most of us believe in the real presence after consecration of the elements. Holy Eucharist is the central point of worship.

I do not intend to attend services until my county has been “green” for quite some time. Our Bishop is strongly discouraging gathering, HE, and choral music, which pretty much means no.;)

We can be and are the church with rituals adapted to safety. But I suspect that we are not the Christians that DJT is attempting to appease.
 

once_upon

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I don't understand this approach at all. What benefit is there in telling people that their lives are going to suck for an extended period of time? I don't see how it'll make anyone happier or more compliant with health and safety measures. Why not let people look forward to have something that they can enjoy, even if it's in a different/more limited way? Being hopeful isn't "cute", it's human.

The Bundesliga is already back. Every major US sport is trying to figure out how to finish or start their season safely. There are clearly a lot of people who are motivated to have sports come back in the safest way possible. I for one hope they'll find a way to do it.
Well I want it to be played this fall. I'm missing my college sports and NFL. The people I'm talking about expect that we will fill stadiums sitting side by side on narrow benches drinking beer with thousands of your closest friends and pumping up the decimal level. That's just not going to happen.

The zoo is opening June 1. From my Facebook friends they seem to think that there will be no restrictions on numbers. Maybe they are right, but with hospitals at 80% of capacity this weekend and cases rising I dont think there is much wiggle room.
 

becca

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I was raised Catholic both before and after Vatican II so I know both what they say now and what they used to say. If the Pope were to announce that the Priest does not have to be physically in the room with the host to cause the transformation, then that would be it and doing it over Zoom would work just fine. To me, that's a less radical change that moving the mass from Latin to English or saying confession isn't always necessary before taking communion.


I didn't say any individual. I said a priest but over Zoom.


Unless they are outside, they should be farther than 6 ft apart. Or they'll be like that WA choir where one person infected 2/3 of the choir.
Confession is necessary if in Mortal Sin. Church teaching is clear. Venial Sins are not the same...

I realize Latin versus vernacular was a huge change for the people but historically it’s not like the Mass throughout time was in Latin. At one point in time Koine Greek was the language of the day.

And other rites used other languages always the Orthodox never used Latin.

Rites and liturgies have changed. Language used has changed there was precedent for stopping using Latin. The people screaming about how the changed the Sacred Mass have no historical standing.

However it has ALWAYS been the case that the Eucharist was the center of Catholic Worship and it has always been the Case that it’s the Priest/Bishop who blessed the Host.

Once can participate Spiritually yes through Zoom But saying something it can be done in such a casual way will cause something to lose specialness.

I am sorry I would rather go with out than have the Church take a sacred thing and change it.

And no the pope doesn’t have the authority to Change this. And if he tried we could kiss ever uniting with the Eastern Orthodox again.

For the record I love the fact that our Worship is centered on the Eucharist and not someone’s sermon or the specialness of someone’s music.
 

missing

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My county is scheduled to reopen on Tuesday. I don't even know what that means but I'm excited.

I'm also nervous that the Chasidic town, which opened one of its schools to hundreds of boys, will screw it up for the rest of us.
 
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becca

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You're having a choir sing? :eek: That is one of the things expressly forbidden here. I hope all the members will be six feet apart from any other person there. In which case, it becomes less like a choir and more like people in the congregation singing.
I definitely think better not to have sing although they will be using masks while singing. However singing Catholic Masses is like four songs spread throughout the Mass. I wont be singing in choir.
 

MacMadame

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I hate it if I am wrong - just now German media reported two large clusters from church gatherings:


and both say that they followed social distance rules with 1.5m distance, no singing etc - this makes me so sad - we had such a good track record the last couple of weeks.
This doesn't surprise me at all. You can't have a room full of people, even socially distancing, all talking for an hour and not have outbreaks as long as the ***** is still all over your community. It's going to be even worse when offices open up IMO.

I can understand why people want to go back to the building and worship together.
I can understand it too. But I can also understand that it's not possible in most of the US right now. People's faith should be strong enough to weather this storm. I believe for most people, their faith is strong enough.

Going to sound un-pc here but the drive to reopen churches is more white entitlement. The pastors I see most eager to open churches are white evangelicals. Meanwhile Muslims around the world just celebrated Ramadan with closed mosques. African-American churches have also been slow to reopen because C19 has devastated African-American communities across the country.
It's both here in the Bay Area.

I think it's Christian entitlement though. I think it's also the relationship that a lot of Christian religions have to science. (I figured this out last night listening to the rationale for completely ignoring the law given by the Chrisitan ministers vs. the reasoning for why they would not defy the law given by the Muslim leaders.)

Do we have somewhere some solid research data for people to see how social distancing does or does not work inside a building over the course of an hour?

And with someone talking?
There have been studies. And a number of articles posted here that explains those studies in a way that a layperson can understand. There is a link in General Resources to an article by Erin B. that I found particularly good.

Why not let people look forward to have something that they can enjoy, even if it's in a different/more limited way?
I think it's worse to promise things and then not deliver them. They can promise something reasonable but sports being back exactly as they were before by late-summer, early Fall is not reasonable.

Confession is necessary if in Mortal Sin. Church teaching is clear. Venial Sins are not the same...
Which is what I said. You do realize that I've been Catholic longer than you? I studied the dogma twice a week for most of my childhood too. Plus again when I had children.

However it has ALWAYS been the case that the Eucharist was the center of Catholic Worship and it has always been the Case that it’s the Priest/Bishop who blessed the Host.
And I have said over and over that the priest can still do that. Just not in the same room. But where he can see it.

I am sorry I would rather go with out than have the Church take a sacred thing and change it.
They take sacred things and change them all. the. time. Confession is a sacred thing. it's a sacrament! But they changed it. They can change this.

Though personally I think it's more of a clarification than a change. The Priest will say the exactly same words. He just won't physically be present.
 

once_upon

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My pastor said she doesn't think new normal will happen until 2021 (singing, saying liturgy outloud). Unless I misunderstood her. But I am fairly certain i understood her.

I think one of the ways communion is offered will be like this https://www.churchsupplywarehouse.com/celebration-cup-pre-filled-communion-cups.html

At least I've heard discussion about it .

I dont think we will have in person services until August 1 at the earliest
 

BittyBug

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”Praying from anywhere works. However, many of us find great comfort in worshipping with our fellow parishioners. Also, the the sacrament of Holy Communion is a very important part of the Catholic Church. This sacrament is not done outside of mass“.
I am nitpicking, but this is not true. Communion is delivered outside of mass quite frequently to the elderly and ill who cannot make it to church.


Regardless of whether the illness causes moral or physical impossibility, the Church is still obliged, insofar as it is possible, to meet the spiritual needs of her faithful. From these needs arise the Church’s ancient pastoral practice of visiting the sick. This practice includes taking the Eucharist to the elderly, the sick and the infirm.
Obviously home visits would be dangerous during YKW, but for the record, Communion can be, and frequently is, delivered outside of mass.
 

MacMadame

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This article says that only about half the states in the US are really ready to reopen:


Note: this is based on modeling that hasn't been peer-reviewed. The article mentioned the numbers for one state agreed with that state's internal models but their models say that CA's cases are still rising but that's not what various websites that report on our stats say. (They say level.) So who knows...

Also I think for larger states, you really need to divide them up. For example, in CA, the southern counties of Los Angeles, San Bernardino, San Diego, Riverside, and Orange accounted for 77% of Thursday's new cases and 88% of Thursday's fatalities, but only have about half of CA's population. And most of that is in Los Angeles County. They had 33 new deaths yesterday which is about 40% of all deaths in the entire state. Likewise, they have 2,049 deaths out of 3,708 in total (55% of all deaths).

In the meantime, there are rural counties that have had no fatalities at all or are in the single digits.
 

Prancer

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I am nitpicking, but this is not true. Communion is delivered outside of mass quite frequently to the elderly and ill who cannot make it to church.
Yes, my in-laws had communion every week in assisted living and at home before that.
 

misskarne

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Churches are not essential services. Surely, if your faith is strong enough, you needn't go to a church to feel its presence; it should be with you all the time.

Churches are also primarily attended (in my experience) by older, more vulnerable people. So that makes it doubly vital that they stay closed. Stream the mass, read your book. Isn't the Christian God supposed to be one of love? Surely, if that is so, then he would understand that you cannot go for the safety of yourself and others.
 

FSWer

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This article is about whether or not restaurants can truly re-open if they have to run at 50% capacity:


And also if dining will change because of the restrictions.
I'm glad somebody started this thread. Because I can only say that what would make the difference if you eat outside or in? You still have to be 6'' apart. Also, I can't see restaurants only having outdoor dining forever. Because if they did they wouldn't make any money.
 

becca

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I am nitpicking, but this is not true. Communion is delivered outside of mass quite frequently to the elderly and ill who cannot make it to church.




Obviously home visits would be dangerous during YKW, but for the record, Communion can be, and frequently is, delivered outside of mass.
yes it is but it would be difficult to travel the homes of hundreds of families. I think my old parish would have a 1000 a week at least come. So yes it is delivered to the sick but not to whole parishes at home. Not feasible.

But it was still consecrated at a physical Mass.
 

overedge

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But it was still consecrated at a physical Mass.
Which IIRC doesn't necessarily have to take place during a regularly scheduled church service. The priest can conduct the Eucharist as long as there is another member of the congregation present, or even on their own in an emergency, and as long as they're not doing it for clearly forbidden reasons.

In a church with a big congregation, the priest might be going out throughout the week to administer the Eucharist in the community as @BittyBug describes. There would have to be a lot of bread consecrated at each weekly Mass to have enough on hand throughout the week.
 

skatfan

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I’m letting all the Roman Catholics here duke it out with each other and I will stay in my little Presbyterian corner all by myself. ;)
 

Zemgirl

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Well I want it to be played this fall. I'm missing my college sports and NFL. The people I'm talking about expect that we will fill stadiums sitting side by side on narrow benches drinking beer with thousands of your closest friends and pumping up the decimal level. That's just not going to happen.
That seems... unlikely. The more likely possibility is football on TV and a barbecue with a much smaller number of your actual friends ;)
 

ballettmaus

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I just read that Thüringen might lift the requirements to wear a mask and keep social distance in a couple of weeks. If they do it, they'd put limitation back in place when they have 35 new infections per 100,000 people over a time of 7 days. Without social distancing (and possibly also regular school and kindergarten (although, they want to be able to test teachers regularly for that even if they're asymptomatic)) it sounds like they'd get there in no time. :wideeyes:

German source: https://tinyurl.com/yd4345t6
 

Hedwig

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I am mad about this. if one Bundesland starts the other will soon follow. what the heck is so difficult about wearing a mask inside a shop? This tiny adjustment in daily life is so insignificant for most people and it seems to help a lot.
 

ballettmaus

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I am mad about this. if one Bundesland starts the other will soon follow. what the heck is so difficult about wearing a mask inside a shop? This tiny adjustment in daily life is so insignificant for most people and it seems to help a lot.
And the CDU guy saying people want normality again? It hasn't even been three full months and it's too much to ask people to wear a mask and stay physically distant from strangers? The entitlement is mind-blowing.
 

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