What does re-opening look like?

manhn

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12,846
I live a few minutes walk to the mall, which has been opened throughout but mainly the Walmart and big pharmacies and banks were open.

I heard the Apple Store reopened and I have an issue with my phone. Lineup was huge, so I had to make an appointment for NEXT FRIDAY. That was the earliest time.

I was so used to the mall being dead but there is quite a bit of people. The weekend will be big.

Also, seniors really are the worst when it comes to social distancing. So many standing around looking at the tv screen to look at lottery numbers. I have never understood that game.
 

MacMadame

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I know for Mass the rules are everyone not in same household sits 6 feet a part and masks are required to be on accept for communion plus no sign of peace etc.
Sitting apart can mitigate the risk but people are still indoors and with a large group of people they don't live with. Also, masks should be worn the entire time and there should not be communion at all IMO. (Yes, I know that won't go down well with Catholics.) And no singing! (sad)

IMO the stages should be something like this:

If cases are rising and hospital capacity is an issue:

Stage 1: essential activities only. Plus whatever you can do in your home (so that includes working for many). Exercise outside the home allowed as long as you stay in your "neighborhood" (i.e., no driving an hour to use someone else's park)

Once the curve is flattened, go to:

Stage 2: all low-risk activities are allowed with social distancing. i.e., outdoor activities with less than X people and no/minimum high-touch equipment, any indoor activity where people are in and out, say in under an hour, and strict occupancy rules can be enforced. So all retail, dining on a patio, some non-essential workplaces.

If this doesn't result in a surge that threatens to overwhelm your hospitals and keeps the deaths to a level people can accept, then go to:

Stage 3: medium risk activities are allowed. So more indoor activities and more outdoor activities that are high touch. No activities of over X people (say 100? 500?) This is where people go back to the office, go to the movies, eat at dine-in indoor restaurants.

Once there is adequate treatment and/or a vaccine, go to:

Stage 4: everything allowed.

Discuss. :D
 

once_upon

New condo owner
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13,922
I know for Mass the rules are everyone not in same household sits 6 feet a part and masks are required to be on accept for communion plus no sign of peace etc.
I consider church to be an extremely high risk situation. I've yet in my 66 years sit through any prayer where no one coughs. Coughing is a forceful expulsion of moist air particles. Many studies show coughing expels up to 12-18 feet. Singing, saying liturgy all expel for a long distance probably that 12-18 feet distance. Communion is prime for spreading any *****, that's why hand sanitizer has been used for years. However, the percentage of people who use it correctly is extremely small. And I doubt serving communion will be paused to re-sanitize if suspected contamination occurs (as some religious leaders have said will happen). Plus cleaning pews and bathrooms just wont happen if there are multiple services in one day.

I miss my church family, just as they miss each other, but spreading ***** is not caring for each other
 

skatfan

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4,668
I know for Mass the rules are everyone not in same household sits 6 feet a part and masks are required to be on accept for communion plus no sign of peace etc.
But you are still in a room with a lot of other people for about an hour. The third dimension risk is time exposure, which is why a short grocery visit may be safer than worship. Plus taking masks off for communion is adding to risk. No common cup I hope.

I hope it stays safe for everyone and that folks follow the rules.
 

mag

Well-Known Member
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12,173
Sitting apart can mitigate the risk but people are still indoors and with a large group of people they don't live with. Also, masks should be worn the entire time and there should not be communion at all IMO. (Yes, I know that won't go down well with Catholics.) And no singing! (sad)

IMO the stages should be something like this:

If cases are rising and hospital capacity is an issue:

Stage 1: essential activities only. Plus whatever you can do in your home (so that includes working for many). Exercise outside the home allowed as long as you stay in your "neighborhood" (i.e., no driving an hour to use someone else's park)

Once the curve is flattened, go to:

Stage 2: all low-risk activities are allowed with social distancing. i.e., outdoor activities with less than X people and no/minimum high-touch equipment, any indoor activity where people are in and out, say in under an hour, and strict occupancy rules can be enforced. So all retail, dining on a patio, some non-essential workplaces.

If this doesn't result in a surge that threatens to overwhelm your hospitals and keeps the deaths to a level people can accept, then go to:

Stage 3: medium risk activities are allowed. So more indoor activities and more outdoor activities that are high touch. No activities of over X people (say 100? 500?) This is where people go back to the office, go to the movies, eat at dine-in indoor restaurants.

Once there is adequate treatment and/or a vaccine, go to:

Stage 4: everything allowed.

Discuss. :D
@MacMadame for President :cheer2:
 

ballettmaus

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13,974
Thus undoing everything they've spent all day avoiding?? Or am I missing something.
Nope.

Also, my mom's colleague takes care of her mother, so she said that she wouldn't work during the last hour. That's possible, so no problem there but that means that every child who stays until the end of the day has a teacher they didn't necessarily have for the three hours before that.
In a way, I'm not surprised, because Berlin likes to do sh*t like that but it still makes me :wall:


Stage 3: medium risk activities are allowed. So more indoor activities and more outdoor activities that are high touch. No activities of over X people (say 100? 500?) This is where people go back to the office, go to the movies, eat at dine-in indoor restaurants.
I like the suggestions. I think I'd add one more stage, though. Stage 2 barely allows for people to congregate and then Stage 3 seems to allow for large gatherings in many different places all at once and I think I'd have a stage in between to limit those gatherings/control it a little more. So, let's say indoor restaurants, gatherings of about 50 people and only small offices first (or larger places have to alternate days) and when that's okay, I'd say let's go one step further.
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
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27,505
I ran some errands this afternoon, and while there were more people wearing masks than in previous days, a lot of people seemed to think, la la la, the stores are open so I don't have to stay six feet away from anyone :scream:

IMO the question now isn't whether there's going to be a second wave. The question is how soon will it hit, and how long the second lockdown is going to have to be.
 

AxelAnnie

Graceful men lift lovely girls in white!
Messages
12,070
I consider church to be an extremely high risk situation. I've yet in my 66 years sit through any prayer where no one coughs. Coughing is a forceful expulsion of moist air particles. Many studies show coughing expels up to 12-18 feet. Singing, saying liturgy all expel for a long distance probably that 12-18 feet distance. Communion is prime for spreading any *****, that's why hand sanitizer has been used for years. However, the percentage of people who use it correctly is extremely small. And I doubt serving communion will be paused to re-sanitize if suspected contamination occurs (as some religious leaders have said will happen). Plus cleaning pews and bathrooms just wont happen if there are multiple services in one day.

I miss my church family, just as they miss each other, but spreading ***** is not caring for each other
Couldn't church be outside?
 

AxelAnnie

Graceful men lift lovely girls in white!
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Oh yes they can. It's a less than 10 people, barrier in place activity. At least in some areas I've seen reports
What does that look like, exactly. Confessionals are closed in spaces. One goes in, one goes out, one goes in, etc.
 

Prancer

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I thought the Catholic Church had stopped doing confessions where people sat in little boxes and talked to priests through screens a long time--or rather, that that is still available in some churches but is not the way it's usually done.

It's usually something relatively open, like this.
 

skatfan

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4,668
So apparently my chiropractor doesn’t think any precautions are needed. Neither he nor his receptionist wearing masks, not sanitizing surfaces. Receptionist didn’t distance. It’s going to be a while before I go back 🙄

OTOH, Trader Joe’s was a model of sanity.
 

MacMadame

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I like the suggestions. I think I'd add one more stage, though. Stage 2 barely allows for people to congregate and then Stage 3 seems to allow for large gatherings in many different places all at once and I think I'd have a stage in between to limit those gatherings/control it a little more. So, let's say indoor restaurants, gatherings of about 50 people and only small offices first (or larger places have to alternate days) and when that's okay, I'd say let's go one step further.
The number of people in the gathering is an area I struggled with as to what #s to have in each stage. I think it depends too much on the circumstances.

Well, it is not like Catholics can go to confession anyway!:shuffle: It is all a mess.
They don't even need to for venal sins anymore. You can just say a little prayer. They started that back when I was in Junior High. So as long as you aren't murdering people... :D
 

MacMadame

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With the priest sitting nearby (less than six feet) and with no cleaning in between confessors? Not safe at all.
If both wear a mask, it's probably fine because confession is very short. And each person faces in the same direction, not facing each other.

They should clean the congregant's chair as much as possible or have them kneel or stand.
 

once_upon

New condo owner
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13,922
I think it's so cute that sportscasters think college football will return like :normal". They weren't even able to do spring training. They should be deep into practice now.
I dont think it will happen. No football this fall.
 

Karen-W

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4,032
I think it's so cute that sportscasters think college football will return like :normal". They weren't even able to do spring training. They should be deep into practice now.
I dont think it will happen. No football this fall.
I think you highly underestimate the love affair Americans have with football. I fully expect we will have both college and pro football in some form (even with empty stadia) this fall.
 

once_upon

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I think you highly underestimate the love affair Americans have with football. I fully expect we will have both college and pro football in some form (even with empty stadia) this fall.
Oh I dont think I underestimate the love. I live in Nebraska Cornhusker and KC Chiefs nation. I know much these fans want it. I actually got emails about purchasing single game tickets for KC Chiefs season.
 

becca

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19,675
I thought the Catholic Church had stopped doing confessions where people sat in little boxes and talked to priests through screens a long time--or rather, that that is still available in some churches but is not the way it's usually done.

It's usually something relatively open, like this.
It’s actually either or! Some churches still have the booth and people can choose more anonymity.

The Common Chalice isn’t going to be available.
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
Messages
27,505
If both wear a mask, it's probably fine because confession is very short. And each person faces in the same direction, not facing each other.
They're close enough together that droplets could be transmitted.

They should clean the congregant's chair as much as possible or have them kneel or stand.
There's no guarantee that they will.
 

AxelAnnie

Graceful men lift lovely girls in white!
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12,070
The number of people in the gathering is an area I struggled with as to what #s to have in each stage. I think it depends too much on the circumstances.


They don't even need to for venal sins anymore. You can just say a little prayer. They started that back when I was in Junior High. So as long as you aren't murdering people... :D
Wow. They did not have that when I was in Catholic school
 

MacMadame

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I never had a curtain. There was that little window that slid open. I think the newer more open ones are probably safer though.
 

Louis

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14,164
The lockdown house of cards is crumbling:

After saying he'd veto the bill allowing real estate to resume (and be like the other 49 states), PA Gov. Wolf had to cave and allow it. Then he had to move all of PA to yellow ahead of schedule.

Gov. Cuomo got a talking to from the ACLU and NYCLU about allowing religious gatherings of up to 10 people, so now all gatherings up to 10 people are allowed. (Yay for secularism.)
 

Hedwig

WoolSilk Fanatic
Messages
18,280
Restaurants (indoor), fitness centres, churches- opening of those things make me so mad.

all evidence points That they are high risk and none of it is essentiell
 

Zemgirl

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Messages
12,800
Restaurants (indoor), fitness centres, churches- opening of those things make me so mad.

all evidence points That they are high risk and none of it is essentiell
None of these things may seem essential, but there are people for whom they are meaningful (certainly places of worship) and others for whom they provide their livelihoods. Not every government is in a position to keep incomes afloat indefinitely, not to mention the mental health implications.

I wouldn't have these anywhere near the top of the list of places to reopen, and indeed they rarely are. But in countries where community transmission is limited to non-existent, it seems reasonable to me to try and get as many people as possible back to a normal life, with reasonable precautions (distancing, hygiene, masks).

New Zealand, for instance, is allowing restaurants and movie theaters to open again. They've done really well (though contrary to what the article suggests, their lockdown wasn't unusually severe compared to other countries) and it makes sense for them, and for countries in a similar situation, to move forward.
BTW, there's been a lot written about New Zealand's success, but I came across this interesting article about lesser known examples that seems worth sharing:
 
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