What does re-opening look like?

becca

Well-Known Member
Messages
19,675
Is there a reason you have so little respect and compassion for your fellow human beings?

I know that you're of the opinion that we're at home to protect only the older generation and that that upsets you. Many have pointed out that the ***** also kills young people already. But even if it didn't, even if it didn't wreak havoc in a young person's body so badly that the Pentagon is considering to disqualify recruits who have been hospitalized and did serious harm to even a child, did you ever stop to consider that the generation who is affected the most, paved the way for the lives we're able to lead right now? You say they don't contribute to society, so even if they didn't (I still think they do), they once did; they fought wars, fought for laws and rights and changes in the system, they improved and invented technology, improved education, health care etc. and all of that has shaped the world we're now able to enjoy.
Sure, it's not perfect. There still are many flaws and things that need to be improved. But we, in the Western world, have been living in the longest consecutive time of peace and we have an abundance of comforts, amenities and privileges right now that are the result of what the older generation contributed to society and of their sacrifices.
Of course, we did not ask them to do what they did, but we're still the beneficiaries and I don't think it's too much to ask that we give up a tiny bit of the comfort and convenience that we have thanks to them and follow and adhere to health guidelines/recommendations and stay socially distant for 12-18 months and not ask them to make sacrifices (in many cases the ultimate sacrifice) for us and our convenience yet again. They already did that, I'd say, now it's our turn. (And there's even the added benefit of protecting everyone else, too).
Comfort! Small sacrifice. I have not seen in person a single person I care about in over two months. Haven’t touched another human being in over two months. If I had some company that would be different.

And there is no guarantee in 12 to 18 months time there will be this magical cure so how long is it suppose to go on. And in people who are struggling to feed their families. I mean my struggle is only companionship.

And I don’t think the elderly people you are saying you want to protect many who live alone would want to be 12 to 18 months of no one.

I am fine with their being restrictions maybe not traveling maybe no big concerts. But there has got to be a balance. There really does.

We are always going to be much safer living at home never going out but well then you don’t live.

As mentioned I have been quarantining I realize there will still have to be sacrifices. But there is going to have to be balance too.

And once again add in the lives that could be lost due to a global depression many smaller poorer countries are reliant on the global supply chain and if they can’t work they won’t be able to feed their families.

Death by starvation as just as much a death as death by disease.

Once again there does need to be restrictions I get that.
 
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MacMadame

Staying at home
Staff member
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33,768
I was wondering... do you think we could keep the discussion of whether or not we should have locked down to PI?

This thread is about how to open up after locking down. Endless discussions of whether we were right to lockdown in the first place are (a) off topic and (b) are now taking place in almost every thread in this part of the forum and many other threads all over FSU and it's making it hard to talk about anything else including the actual topic of those threads.

(Yes I know I have no authority to tell people what to post where. It's just a voluntary request.)
 

attyfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
8,533
My county (Ventura) just got the state permission to go to the next phase of re-opening; possibly, by next weekend, it may be possible to have a sit down meal in a restaurant -- with social distancing. The downtown area has blocked cars from a five block (or so) area so restaurants can seat people in the street!
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
Messages
27,505
I am fine with their being restrictions maybe not traveling maybe no big concerts. But there has got to be a balance. There really does.
Do you think that the policy makers and legislators are deliberately trying to make everyone as miserable as they can? Or that they don't realize that balance is important?

IMO "balance" is whatever is going to make the majority of the population the safest and the healthiest. And if that means staying at home and/or no big gatherings of any kind, I'm fine with that. It only takes one person with the v*r*s for it to be transmitted to many other people.
 

becca

Well-Known Member
Messages
19,675
Do you think that the policy makers and legislators are deliberately trying to make everyone as miserable as they can? Or that they don't realize that balance is important?

IMO "balance" is whatever is going to make the majority of the population the safest and the healthiest. And if that means staying at home and/or no big gatherings of any kind, I'm fine with that. It only takes one person with the v*r*s for it to be transmitted to many other people.
Except for the fact that mental health matters too. Suicide is up. Drug death is up. Hunger is big time up some are saying 150 million at risk for starvation due to lockdowns.

I mean we could save life’s and ban driving. Once again I accept we need to make changes and there will be a new normal but lockdowns for 12 to 18 months aren’t feasible and people will revolt. Decide they would rather get the *****.
 

Louis

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,164
I think it might be news to the airlines that one of their seats is your property. :lol:
If I paid for a seat, I expect that seat to be free of other people's limbs and possessions. I don't think that's an unreasonable request, but if there's any doubt, I can call the airline CEO and ask. I have his details. He offered me a job last year (probably good I didn't take it).

In this instance, I informed the flight attendant that I was moving to an empty row and let rude mask-selfie princess do as she wishes. If I were nasty, I would have "accidentally" coughed on her phone while it was in my face.

Is there a reason you have so little respect and compassion for your fellow human beings?
I ask the same question of you. I know it's newsflash to liberals, but many of us think you're as morally deficient as you think we are. At best, I see selective respect, compassion, and empathy in your posts, and that's generous.
 

PRlady

Nerdy flack
Messages
34,830
Yes I could mind my own business, but....with your sensitive stomach, why wouldn't you just pack your own food in a cooler? It's sure the be 1,000% better than any fast food grub, and you'd eliminate a source of exposure.
Oh, I'm packing GF cookies and crackers and whatnot, but the thing people don't get is that for IBS/D, colitis etc, a MacDonald's hamburger is easier to digest than that healthy kale salad with all the veggies. We don't own a cooler (I think) and we're trying to limit ourselves from more stuff. We went through a drive-through last weekend on our day trip to Fredericksburg, and given that there's more evidence that it's very very hard to catch a ***** from surfaces, and that in a drive-through someone in a mask is handing you food in a few seconds, it's safe enough.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
Staff member
Messages
33,768
Sources please?
I actually went looking for suicide stats for March and April and couldn't find them. (The links @becca posted that worked all said that these things may spike and that we should expect increases but didn't have any numbers of actual increase. They were all predictions not reporting of actual numbers.)

I think it's too soon to know what the impact will be on suicide. Stats tend to lag a few months and we've only been at this for a few months.

But my governor constantly talks about mental health and how important it is for people to get help if the SIP is impacting their mental health. I've heard plenty of policymakers talking bout this. It absolutely is part of their calculations as is the harm to the economy.

IMO the world isn't staying locked down forever. All 50 states in the US are opening up right now. In CA, which is as big as something like 21 of the states put together, we have smaller, more rural counties that are more open than the rest of the state. And something like 1 or 2 counties that are locked down slightly more. But all the counties are in the process of opening up. Many, many countries are opening up as well.

So I don't understand why people keep saying "we can't stay locked down forever!" Literally no one is advocating for that. No one. And not only are they not advocating for that, TPTB are in the process of opening up their areas. So even if people were advocating for staying in lockdown forever, policymakers aren't listening to them.

The question isn't: Should we open up? That decision has been made. It's how do we open up so that we don't undo all the work we put into the SIP. And for that, I think the answer should be: open up a few things at a time that are similar, wait 2-3 weeks to see how that changes the numbers and then proceed from there with either shutting those things back down or opening up more.

If you just open up everything* at once and it all goes south, how will you know what caused those numbers to go south? The only way to know is to do a few at a time so you can separate out the different variables. Otherwise you open everything up at once and shut everything down over and over. That will drive people crazier than opening up slightly slower than they want to IMO.

*by everything I mean either literally everything or everything but the large gatherings where social distancing isn't possible like county fairs and sporting events.
 

becca

Well-Known Member
Messages
19,675
I agree we can’t open up at once. For the record I have every intention of being careful wearing a mask, I have been following the rules.

Bars are opening I have no intention of going. None. I am going to Mass though with a mask on.
 
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allezfred

#EpidemiologistsNotEconomists
Staff member
Messages
55,927
If I paid for a seat, I expect that seat to be free of other people's limbs and possessions. I don't think that's an unreasonable request, but if there's any doubt, I can call the airline CEO and ask. I have his details. He offered me a job last year (probably good I didn't take it).
But it isn't your property. And I am glad we agree that freedom does have limits. ;)
 

SkateSand

Cat Servant
Messages
429
Our major, close to the city national park is opening on Friday, with all beaches, concessions, boat launches, and bathrooms available. Just as well since people were flocking to it already. At least now the bathrooms will be open so the water people are swimming in will be cleaner. :p (See, this is where the powers-that-be don't think things through, lol - you either enforce the closure or open the bathrooms.) Our national park closest to my house is still waiting for approval from the feds to open.
 

becca

Well-Known Member
Messages
19,675
Evidence is showing that it’s difficult to get the ***** through surfaces and outside. So really might as well keep parks open.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
Staff member
Messages
33,768
Evidence is showing that it’s difficult to get the ***** through surfaces and outside. So really might as well keep parks open.
I think the reason they closed the parks was because people weren't social distancing. At least here, the parks started out open and then they started closing them because they were mobbed. Then they opened them up but closed some (or all) of the parking lots so less people would come. It was a mess, FTR

Though they closed the water fountains because they didn't want people to get C19 from them (which I personally thought was dumb) and they closed the bathrooms because they didn't have the staff to clean them which seemed okay to me at first but apparently I over-estimated people again. 💩

If I paid for a seat, I expect that seat to be free of other people's limbs and possessions.
What airlines are you flying where that's the norm? :eek: (I want in)

But it isn't your property.
It's the airline's property which they are renting us the use of. But I actually want Louis to ask his CEO friend if the seat is his property. I'd pay good money to see his face when he's asked that question! :lol:
 

million$momma

Well-Known Member
Messages
337
Oh, I'm packing GF cookies and crackers and whatnot, but the thing people don't get is that for IBS/D, colitis etc, a MacDonald's hamburger is easier to digest than that healthy kale salad with all the veggies. We don't own a cooler (I think) and we're trying to limit ourselves from more stuff. We went through a drive-through last weekend on our day trip to Fredericksburg, and given that there's more evidence that it's very very hard to catch a ***** from surfaces, and that in a drive-through someone in a mask is handing you food in a few seconds, it's safe enough.
Are there public restrooms available for use along your route? We would usually use fast food restrooms when travelling but all our food places are locked up with curbside and drive thru service only so no open restrooms.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
Staff member
Messages
33,768
News today had a feature on proposed TSA changes:

-you won't hand them your boarding pass anymore. They have to look at it while you hold it

-if your bag doesn't pass screening, you have to unpack it yourself

-they recommend you put your wallet and small items into your bags before they are screened

I am okay with unpacking my own bag. I hate it when strangers paw through my stuff. But I have no idea what packing my wallet is supposed to do? And the whole not touching your boarding pass is just dumb. They aren't going to get this from touching my boarding pass. Anything that makes me stand there longer is increasing their risks so that's where their efforts should be.
 

PRlady

Nerdy flack
Messages
34,830
Are there public restrooms available for use along your route? We would usually use fast food restrooms when travelling but all our food places are locked up with curbside and drive thru service only so no open restrooms.
The state rest stops in VA and NC are open. Truckers have to pee.
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
Messages
27,505
Evidence is showing that it’s difficult to get the ***** through surfaces and outside. So really might as well keep parks open.
The problem with parks is not that they're outside. The problem is that many people are not staying six feet away from each other when they're at the park.
 

Prancer

Needs More Sleep
Staff member
Messages
49,689
I just feel like we have to develop a balance if this is going to be going on for years we cannot ask people to lock themselves for years.
Is anyone at all asking people to lock themselves down for years? Anyone?

Is any place NOT seeking a balance?
 

GarrAargHrumph

I can kill you with my brain
Messages
18,937
My region will be one of the last in the state of NY to open up. I think only Long Island and NYC will open more slowly.

One of the things I'd wanted to do this summer was visit some ocean (or really, any) beaches here, but this may not be the summer for that. It's not that I wouldn't go - I would, if they were open, because the beaches I go to, I go to at times when others are not there. The trick is that the bathrooms need to be open when I get there, because I have to drive a good while to get there, and if the beach isn't formally open, there are no bathrooms, and with the restaurants and etc. all closed, those aren't options, either. No bathroom = no beach visit.

I used to live on the beach in Massachusetts, and although I'm not one for sunbathing, being wicked freekin pale, I really like doing things like running along the beach, or walking, or sitting in the shade and reading; and I've been missing it since I moved to NY a million years ago. I found a beach I really liked last summer, because I filmed a movie there.* I'd decided that this year, I'd go to the beach more often, check out some additional beaches - I'd even bought a tiny beach chair and umbrella to keep in my car so I could drive and park when the mood hits.

The state run beaches will be open this summer, but none of those are near me. The ones nearest to me are NYC beaches, which are closed, and county beaches, which are on lakes (I'll take it, but it's not ideal) and when I went to the only county beach I know of, it was still closed. So alas.

*I filmed this movie on the boardwalk at Coney Island. I'd never been there before. Coney Island is a much nicer beach than what I'd expected, with actual parking if you know where to look for it, and if you go there in the morning on a weekday, it's (don't tell anyone) pretty empty. I also hoped to check out Rockaway Beach, because the Ramones and the Beastie Boys told me it's a nice beach. I've never been to the Jersey Shore - those beaches are a bit far, and I don't know which ones are crowded and which are not; would take some research to find which ones aren't too far from me, and aren't wall to wall people.

The closest ocean beaches to me are actually in Connecticut, but they're private, which is ridiculous. How can you own the ocean? Growl
 

once_upon

New condo owner
Messages
13,922
The thing I miss most is actual hugs with my kids and especially my grandkids - but my kids are concerned about their kids and us. Also my group of friends (12 of us), but we are all in high risk groups. And my church friends, again a group that is at high risk.

Do I disregard everyone's health or concerns for us? I wont.
 

GarrAargHrumph

I can kill you with my brain
Messages
18,937
I'd also hoped to do more background/extra work in tv and film this summer, but productions all shut down here in March, and even once they do reopen, which here in NY may not be soon, it looks like part of the plan is to rework productions so you don't need extras. It's understandable, but I'd wanted to do a few more this summer, for the cash and also to be able to say "look, that's the back of my head!"

I'd met a lot of people who do backgrounds work for their entire living. I'm not sure what those folks are doing now. I'm not sure if they qualify for unemployment, since it's not that you work for one employer - you work for a different company with each production. A lot of the crew do similar - they basically are freelance. I think the tv/film industry will come back to NY again; this place is too much of a draw not to. But it will be a while, as production is restarting elsewhere (Georgia, Sweden, France, Iceland) before it's even on the radar to restart here. I think productions that aren't tied to/married to NY as a location will move, so they can get started.
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
Messages
27,505
I'd met a lot of people who do backgrounds work for their entire living. I'm not sure what those folks are doing now. I'm not sure if they qualify for unemployment, since it's not that you work for one employer - you work for a different company with each production.
For what it's worth I think some of the government shutdown-benefit plans in Canada are based on weeks of work, not necessarily whether that work was for a single employer. To me that makes a lot more sense because it would include folks in industries like TV and film, who, as you point out, work for individual productions and not for one company.
 

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,974
wait 2-3 weeks to see how that changes the numbers
I've heard/read that 2-3 weeks is not enough time. I've heard that it'll take 6 weeks until we know the effects of opening up. (Mixture of German and US sources).

The Atlantic had an article about the "Patchwork *********" and it mentions this:

This means that new infections can take weeks to manifest in regional statistics. May’s declining cases are the result of April’s physical distancing, and the consequences of May’s reopenings won’t be felt until June at the earliest.

The article also raises this concern:
Economic indicators support this view. Even in conservative states, activity plummeted before leaders closed businesses, and hasn’t rebounded since restrictions were lifted. As such, Redbird doesn’t share the widely held fear that Americans have become inured to social distancing and will refuse to suffer through it again. The bigger risk, she says, is that demoralizing bouts of shutdowns and reopenings will nix any prospect of economic recovery. “You only get to say Go out, trust me once,” she says. “They won’t believe you the second time.”

(The article itself is long but I felt worth a read).
 
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