Vaccine passports discussion

[Louis]

This question has been on my mind since the vaccine roll-out first started. Despite various "ethics councils" saying providing extra privileges to the vaccinated is unethical, it seems like private enterprise is moving toward required vaccination. Which I'm honestly OK with, AFTER we reach a point where all people have been offered the vaccine.

Pretty much everyone has been living under some degree of uncomfortable restrictions for nearly a year now. It could take six or more months between the first vaccinated and the last. The "Israeli" model described below only works if you can vaccinate the entire population quickly. Otherwise, if certain people can go to restaurants, cinema, holiday, etc. in April while many others living under restrictions until October, I do think there will be social unrest. This could range from widespread failure to follow the rules, to illegal certificates (already happening), to queue-jumping, to perhaps violence.

The Guardian's take:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...id-vaccine-passport-plans-cause-global-unease (replace * with o)

It is the question being asked with increasing urgency around the world, at least in countries where the vaccine is already available: how much freedom to live life as it was before the pandemic should be granted to those who have been vaccinated against Covid-19?

Its impacts range from the speed at which economies can open, to when grandparents and grandchildren can hug again, but it is causing growing unease among decision-makers who warn there is a danger of dividing societies already under huge strain due to pandemic restraints.

A universal document, probably digital, providing official proof that someone has been vaccinated against, or tested for, coronavirus may become a reality within months – as much a part of life as going out of the house with a face mask.

Germany:

Germany’s ethics council, an independent body that advises the government, has recommended that no special conditions be granted to the inoculated. [...] But private enterprises including restaurants and cinemas could not be prevented from applying their own rules, the council conceded, and last week the German ticket company Eventim said it had already revamped its online booking service to allow for customers to upload proof that they had been vaccinated in anticipation that organisers of events from concerts to sports tournaments will in future require it as a condition of entry.
[...]
Germany’s ethics council has meanwhile ruled out allowing top sportsmen and women to jump the vaccination queue before the Olympics.

France:

France’s European affairs minister, Clément Beaune, has objected to the idea on grounds of equality, since vaccines have not yet been offered to all. “We are very reluctant,” he said. “It would be shocking, while the campaign is still just starting across Europe, for there to be more important rights for some than for others.”

Sweden:

“When Sweden and countries around us start to open up our societies again, vaccination certificates are likely to be required for travel and possibly for taking part in other activities,” he said.

Israel:

Israeli officials have hinted at the prospect of a “green passport” to allow vaccinated people to eat in restaurants, go to the theatre and cinema, travel freely and be exempted from quarantine when travelling internationally.

 

[Miezekatze]

Even the German ethics commissions says that priviledges (which are really more of a return of rights) are not ethical at the moment, as long as not everybody has access to vaccines. Which obviously means their view might change when everybody who wants to be vaccinated is vaccinating and the amount of people who don't want to get a vaccine is too high to lift all restrictions equally for everybody. Angela Merkel has also hinted in a tv interview that in this case, it might be possible that unvaccinated people can't do all the same things as vaccinated people.

I think those questions be a very dominating topic in the second half of the year and the time until this point of time is reached is certainly going to become very controversial.

What I see as another problem: even if there are no actual earlier priviledges for vaccinated people until there is enough vaccine for everybody, the months were many will be vaccinated but many are not, will be extremely dangerous for unvaccinated people, because privately the vaccinated people will be less careful, I'd predict they are likely to got out more, invite and visit more people and use existing reopened places more than unvaccinated people. Which means people who are still waiting will either have to take the same freedom and risk infection or be extra careful, while others are having "more fun".

I don't really expect any easy travel without vaccinations for years to come. For travel it seems a no-brainer that unvaccinated people would spend half their lifetime in quarantines if they refuse to get a vaccine and want to or need to travel

At the moment a majority of Germans disapprove of priviledges for vaccinated people btw. But at the moment 97% of people are unvaccinated. I totally expect those polls will start to shift when let's say 55% of people are vaccinated and are still waiting for restrictions to be lifted. People tend to be very approving of being altruistic in polls when they are not personally affected (which is often demonstrated by the huge support in climate change measures in generalistic polls, which never translates in people actually willing to accept actual disadvantages due to climate change measures).

Btw the German ethics commission also says that keeping up restrictions is also not ethical when there's no risk of overloading the health system anymore and the German constitution experts say the same in regards to the juridical view. Which IMO makes it pretty impossible that a country like Germany could for example adopt a strategy against the virus like in Australia or New Zealand, cause restrictions would always have to be lifted by the order of courts when numbers are low.

 

[skategal]

Btw the German ethics commission also says that keeping up restrictions is also not ethical when there's no risk of overloading the health system anymore and the German constitution experts say the same in regards to the juridical view. Which IMO makes it pretty impossible that a country like Germany could for example adopt a strategy against the ***** like in Australia or New Zealand, cause restrictions would always have to be lifted by the order of courts when numbers are low.

For the most part, this is how restrictions have been happening in Canada. When hospitals become overcrowded, tougher restrictions and/or lockdowns get put in place. When cases go down and pressure eases on the healthcare system, restrictions get lifted.

It doesn't have to go to court here. The Medical Officer of Health and the Premiers have the power through Public Health Legislation to do so.

We have very few restrictions on residents where I live now (besides mandatory masking and gathering limits) because cases are so low and barely anyone here is vaccinated yet.

We have had strict restrictions from time to time, especially the first 12 weeks and over Christmas, when there was a risk to the health care system.

tell me that Thailand will require proof of vaccination of CV to enter their country when they fully reopen to tourists and drop the quarantine requirement. They are aiming for Fall 2021.

I can somewhat see how it could work for travel but I think it will be a dog's breakfast in Canada trying to require vaccinations to take part in activities in our own country. It will be especially difficult if MDs are going to have to write letters for people to prove vaccination status.

We do have some electronic tracking of vaccines here but the privacy requirements would mean that your average corporation would never be able to access them to check on someone's vaccination status.

Also, with kids (1-11) not even going to be started to be vaccinated until at least 2022, I don't see vaccination passports working except for travel outside your country.

 

[Dave of the North]

Given the speed at which our governments in Canada operate, I expect they would have vaccine passports available sometime in 2022 or maybe 2023, the same time when the bulk of the 300 million vaccines they have "secured" will arrive.

Snarky comments aside:

International travel - I think you need certain vaccinations to travel to some countries, so I see this as an extension. Any country has the right to ban anyone who is not a citizen/landed immigrant/etc from entering for any reason they like. The trickier part would be requiring a vaccine passport for a citizen who has been out of the country - require they get a vaccine at border control?

Let's assume we have them:

some time in the spring I hope we can open our bridge club again. If we had vaccine passports and then could dispense with the masking, social distancing etc, yeah go for it.

But if we are still expected/required to mask, social distance, then why bother with the passport?

Ethicists saying "nobody can do anything until everyone is vaccinated" is just stupid.

 

[skategal]

Given the speed at which our governments in Canada operate, I expect they would have vaccine passports available sometime in 2022 or maybe 2023, the same time when the bulk of the 300 million vaccines they have "secured" will arrive.

You are way too optimistic. They will still be debating the inter-jurisdictional and privacy issues of vaccine passports in 2023.

We will all be vaccinated way before we get vaccine passports in Canada and that will largely invalidate the need for them.

We may need to get letters from our MD or public health for travelling to say that we are vaccinated. We would have to pay out of pocket for this most likely.

I expect restrictions will drop for most things as more people get vaccinated. I can see the mask mandate in indoor places staying until all kids are vaccinated (2023.)

 

[Miezekatze]

Canada sounds a lot like Germany when it comes to processes

I agree that it's going to be difficult to do this for activities inside a country, even though I read that several countries plan that anyway (for example Denmark and Israel).

Denmark is already planning a vaccination passport and I read that Iceland is planning that for incoming travel too. And in Italy the tourism industry is hoping to at least be able to have vaccinated tourists in summer. So I think most countries are at least throwing ideas around.

I'd guess children would be exempt from such rules, as long as they can't be vaccinated. Obviously people aren't going to take family holidays without their little kids.

I think it's fully understandable that countries would want to protect themselves against unvaccinated travellers. Even if vaccines don't give a 100% protection either, I'm sure it's better than completely unvaccinated travellers.

 

[Hedwig]

I guess I am in the minority but I don't mind at all if there are privileges for those that are vaccinated (provided, of course, that it can be established that they don't infect others).

If I can not go to a restaurant because I am not vaccinated yet, I don't mind if others do. Especially if it means that said restaurant might still be THERE once I have my vaccination.
I understand that it will be some months before I am in the spot to get the shot and that is just how it is. Keeping more people in not being allowed to do something will not help me at all.

 

[Miezekatze]

I guess I am in the minority but I don't mind at all if there are privileges for those that are vaccinated (provided, of course, that it can be established that they don't infect others).

If I can not go to a restaurant because I am not vaccinated yet, I don't mind if others do. Especially if it means that said restaurant might still be THERE once I have my vaccination.
I understand that it will be some months before I am in the spot to get the shot and that is just how it is. Keeping more people in not being allowed to do something will not help me at all.

I feel the same. I totally expect that it will take many months till it's my turn, since I'm only 42 and completely healthy, but I don't mind at all if businesses are able to operate early in a way that's safer when they allow only vaccinated people in.
It seems very unfair to me to let for example theaters or cinemas suffer even longer than neccessary, since they are affected so badly by lockdowns.

Besides, even if things open up the same time for everybody the same way, I probably still will wait longer than already vaccinated people to do risky things, because I feel unsafer than they do.

Besides, some people say that it's bad for societal solidarity if vaccinated people have advantages. But I doubt it's going to any better for societal solidarity if at one point of time 55% of people are vaccinated and things can't open up fully anyway because the rest of the population doesn't bother to get vaccinated. In both versions a big portion of the population will be unhappy for a while, but I prefer the solution that helps businesses to get back to business.

Some countries sure seem to act quick though, I read Greece and Israel are planning to make a "Vaccination corridor", so that vaccinated Israelis can vacation in greece without restrictions. Greece is also planning the same with the UK. I know that they are the most keen of all the EU states to get the EU vaccination passport going too. I bet in summer there will be tons of pressure from the southern European states to enable holiday travel, because they need the income so badly.

Meanwhile I'm sure Germany will at least discuss the theoretical possibilities until November, trying to find solutions that will piss off absolutely nobody and before they finally get around to make any decisions there will be lawsuits, that will force them to do something.

 

[MsZem]

I guess I am in the minority but I don't mind at all if there are privileges for those that are vaccinated (provided, of course, that it can be established that they don't infect others).

The update I posted in the general news thread indicates that even if one becomes infected after getting vaccinated (with the Pfizer vaccine), the viral load is much lower.

Once vaccine supply outstrips initial demand, it will be necessary to incentivize vaccinated in some way. Vaccine passports make a lot of sense, and as you noted, it will help businesses if there is a clientele they can serve relatively safely.

 

[beepbeep]

The main issue I see is, if people who are vaccinated feel like they should have the right to go out and do restaurants, trabel and whatnot, but what about the people who work in those places, who may not be vaccinated yet?

This is particularly concerning if a vaccine becomes privately available. The minority that can pay for it will certainly push for reopening.
Workers, who will most likely be dying to have paying customers again, who can’t afford to pay to have the vaccine now and have to wait for it to be available to the general public, will be even more in the crud line of fire.

 

[MacMadame]

I guess I am in the minority but I don't mind at all if there are privileges for those that are vaccinated (provided, of course, that it can be established that they don't infect others).

I don't have an issue with it either. I also think, by the time governments are done debating about it, the whole issue will be moot because everyone in their country who wants to be vaccinated will be.

I do see ethical dilemmas around vaccinations but not about this.

This is particularly concerning if a vaccine becomes privately available. The minority that can pay for it will certainly push for reopening.
Workers, who will most likely be dying to have paying customers again, who can’t afford to pay to have the vaccine now and have to wait for it to be available to the general public, will be even more in the crud line of fire.

In the US, essential workers are in line before the general public.

 

[Miezekatze]

And in Germany they I think such privileges would only start when everybody has access to vaccines. Then all people who work at places that could reopen should have access too.

 

[beepbeep]

I don't have an issue with it either. I also think, by the time governments are done debating about it, the whole issue will be moot because everyone in their country who wants to be vaccinated will be.

I do see ethical dilemmas around vaccinations but not about this.


In the US, essential workers are in line before the general public.

What I meant is that a vaccination jail free card becomes particularly concerning if privately paid vaccination becomes a thing.

Those of the general public whose livelihood depends on non-essential businesses (and have been hit hard) will basically be forced to open due to the pressure of the vaccinated minority (on the authorities) and due to their own financial difficulties.

I think it’s best to not even make the possibility of having a vaccine passport for cvoid a reality at least until the vast majority of the population is vaccinated. It can start a chain of events that will set apart the privileged and the non privileged even further.

 

[Miezekatze]

But I think in rich countries the vast majority of people won't get vaccinated without some incentives, as Mrs Zem pointed out.

Theres too many "but my immune system is great anyway", "I don't like THAT vaccine", "I dont like chemicals in my body", "I first want to wait about 2 or 3 years, until there is more data", "what if women get infertile",...

And that's not even the anti vaxxers, that's the "I'm not an anti vaxxer, but..." crowd.

 

[Dave of the North]

I expect restrictions will drop for most things as more people get vaccinated. I can see the mask mandate in indoor places staying until all kids are vaccinated (2023.)

Good grief, I hope it wouldn't be that long. I'm not sure the mask mandate would last past this summer. I expect it will be ignored if the cases are low and all the at-risk people are vaccinated.

 

[skategal]

Good grief, I hope it wouldn't be that long. I'm not sure the mask mandate would last past this summer. I expect it will be ignored if the cases are low and all the at-risk people are vaccinated.

Clinical trials for kids aged 1-11 won't be started until late 2021 with results expected sometime in 2022.

Then it has to roll-out to the kiddos.

So it will be awhile for sure.

 

[MacMadame]

Clinical trials for kids aged 1-11 won't be started until late 2021 with results expected sometime in 2022.

Then it has to roll-out to the kiddos.

So it will be awhile for sure.

There is no reason to wait for all the kids to be vaccinated to stop having mask mandates. Most mask mandates don't include kids and kids are not a significant transmission source. Plus once enough people are vaccinated, there will be herd immunity.

I agree with @Dave of the North that mask mandates will be lucky to last through the summer.

And I disagree that nothing can be back to normal until everyone gets vaccinated. Once a significant portion of the population is vaccinated, the push will be to get back to normal and it will be a strong push from every direction.

 

[clairecloutier]

I was talking with my parents yesterday, they are getting their second vaccine shots on Friday.

They are happy to get the vaccine, but don't expect to change their current lifestyle much. I guess they don't foresee eating in restaurants or going on visits until the overall case rate drops significantly.

I feel like there is so much uncertainty right now.

 

[Orm Irian]

But I think in rich countries the vast majority of people won't get vaccinated without some incentives, as Mrs Zem pointed out.

Theres too many "but my immune system is great anyway", "I don't like THAT vaccine", "I dont like chemicals in my body", "I first want to wait about 2 or 3 years, until there is more data", "what if women get infertile",...

And that's not even the anti vaxxers, that's the "I'm not an anti vaxxer, but..." crowd.

Depends on the country and what its general vaccination compliance rate is. Australia has an approximately 95% compliance rate and people are spitting chips at the federal government for taking so long to get our vaccination campaign up and running. Compliance rates for this are expected to be as high as for normal childhood vaccines.

 

[skategal]

There is no reason to wait for all the kids to be vaccinated to stop having mask mandates. Most mask mandates don't include kids and kids are not a significant transmission source. Plus once enough people are vaccinated, there will be herd immunity.

I agree with @Dave of the North that mask mandates will be lucky to last through the summer.

And I disagree that nothing can be back to normal until everyone gets vaccinated. Once a significant portion of the population is vaccinated, the push will be to get back to normal and it will be a strong push from every direction.

Where I live we won’t be anywhere close to herd immunity until most kids are vaccinated. Cases are super low here like way less than 1% of the population. So literally no natural immunity here.

Mask mandates in indoor places are for everyone aged 2 and up, except for school which is grade 3 and up.

I expect the mask mandate to stay for awhile here. I don’t think much else will.

We don’t have that many restrictions for residents now and barely anyone is vaccinated here yet.

 

[acraven]

Roughly 20% of the US population is under 16, so it won't be easy to get to herd immunity until we can start vaccinating kids--EXCEPT that there will be some contribution from children who've had and recovered from the virus.

 

[sk8nlizard]

Clinical trials for kids aged 1-11 won't be started until late 2021 with results expected sometime in 2022.

Then it has to roll-out to the kiddos.

So it will be awhile for sure.

My oldest had his 10 year well check last week, and I was sort of shocked with what his ped told me. She felt like he would be able to be vaccinated by the time he turned 12. My youngest is 7 and she felt like she would have to wait a few more years after my oldest! So that’s at least 2 years until either of my kids could be vaccinated if she is correct. I’m hoping for sooner.

 

[skategal]

My oldest had his 10 year well check last week, and I was sort of shocked with what his ped told me. She felt like he would be able to be vaccinated by the time he turned 12. My youngest is 7 and she felt like she would have to wait a few more years after my oldest! So that’s at least 2 years until either of my kids could be vaccinated if she is correct. I’m hoping for sooner.

Pfizer is hoping to have their clinical results for ages 12-17 out by summer so that this age group could get immunized by September in time for school.

Clinical trials for the 1-11 age group won’t start until after that with earliest results sometime in 2022.

My son is also 10 and I suspect he will be immunized as a 12 year old (summer 2022) before he will qualify to be immunized as an 11 year old.

I do hope I’m wrong though...

 

[sk8nlizard]

Pfizer is hoping to have their clinical results for ages 12-17 out by summer so that this age group could get immunized by September in time for school.

Clinical trials for the 1-11 age group won’t start until after that with earliest results sometime in 2022.

My son is also 10 and I suspect he will be immunized as a 12 year old (summer 2022) before he will qualify to be immunized as an 11 year old.

I do hope I’m wrong though...

Yes, I wasn’t as shocked that my 10 yr old probably won’t get it til he’s 12 but more that she thought my 7 year old would have to wait substantially longer.

 

[Judy]

You are way too optimistic. They will still be debating the inter-jurisdictional and privacy issues of vaccine passports in 2023.

We will all be vaccinated way before we get vaccine passports in Canada and that will largely invalidate the need for them.

We may need to get letters from our MD or public health for travelling to say that we are vaccinated. We would have to pay out of pocket for this most likely.

I expect restrictions will drop for most things as more people get vaccinated. I can see the mask mandate in indoor places staying until all kids are vaccinated (2023.)

I know that when I got my flu shot at the flu clinic they gave me a form confirming I received it to give my dr. to update my medical file. I didn’t bother as flu shot isn’t that important for my file.

I would think something like that would happen. It will likely be a long time before I can personally travel anyways.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I guess I am in the minority but I don't mind at all if there are privileges for those that are vaccinated (provided, of course, that it can be established that they don't infect others).

If I can not go to a restaurant because I am not vaccinated yet, I don't mind if others do. Especially if it means that said restaurant might still be THERE once I have my vaccination.
I understand that it will be some months before I am in the spot to get the shot and that is just how it is. Keeping more people in not being allowed to do something will not help me at all.

Exactly! I don't see any "privilege" in allowing people who are vaccinated to do this or that.
I see it as qualifying. If you are vaccinated, there are things you can do.

HEALTH LINE: There have been opposition to vaccinations for as long as there have been vaccines.

I also think that things are whakadoodle and information changes all the time. Makes it difficult where to know what to key off of to set rules and regulations.

In California, your child cannot enter school without proof of vaccination or a medical exemption i.e. allergies, compromised immune system, etc. (proof from the Doctor) or a religious exemption (i.e. your religion forbids or frowns on interference
with their tenants which they believe is handed down by G-d)

Once things have stabilized, I think it is perfectly appropriate to require proof of vaccination to do certain things. This virus is not to be messed with. Large cities like Los Angeles are just a mess. Assuming that the vaccines are available to all then people need to be responsible for the consequences of the decisions they make.

 

[Lemonade20]

At the very minimum, I'd be happy to see a vaccination stamp for travellers. The rest can be managed to a degree but traveling is how it spread so quickly around the world.

 

[Judy]

At the very minimum, I'd be happy to see a vaccination stamp for travellers. The rest can be managed to a degree but traveling is how it spread so quickly around the world.

Absolutely true.

 

[moebius]

I don't think it's fair for those who cannot take the vaccine because they are allergic to the ingredients, have been gravely ill after vaccination, etc. They should be able to do everything a vaccinated person can do, knowing that they are more at risk of getting sick. They should not be a threat to vaccinated people, so vaccinated people should not have to worry about being around unvaccinated people. Just like the flu shot. Do people who have taken the flu shot worry about those who didn't have the flu shot? No.

 

[Prancer]

I don't think it's fair for those who cannot take the vaccine because they are allergic to the ingredients, have been gravely ill after vaccination, etc. They should be able to do everything a vaccinated person can do, knowing that they are more at risk of getting sick. They should not be a threat to vaccinated people, so vaccinated people should not have to worry about being around unvaccinated people. Just like the flu shot. Do people who have taken the flu shot worry about those who didn't have the flu shot? No.

School systems require students to have vaccinations to attend. The ones with allergies or other medical contraindications gets waivers.

I don't see any reason why it would be different with this.

And yes, I DO worry about people who haven't been vaccinated against flu, because they spread the flu around and the flu vaccine sometimes has limited effectiveness, so they are a threat both to other unvaccinated people and to the very vulnerable who get flu vaccines that aren't effective enough. But you already know this argument.

Meanwhile, in the US:

Federal officials are considering whether to require airline passengers to have a negative coronavirus test before boarding domestic flights, according to Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg.

But airline executives, union officials and elected officials have raised concerns about requiring testing for domestic travelers, arguing that such a rule would be difficult to implement and could inflict more financial damage on the airline industry, which has been clobbered by the abrupt halt in global travel.