US Supreme Court Justice Kennedy Retiring

Peaches LaTour

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,293
Anybody else here old enough to remember 3.2 beer? That's what was legal in Ohio at 18 for years. And 21 for stronger beer and all other alcohols. I think they stopped making it in the 80s. So how much you want to bet they didn't drink 3.2 beer even if they had access to it. Ol' Brett and his friends must have downed cases of the stronger stuff.

I forgot to mention earlier, that when he was talking so much about beer, I wanted someone to say "I bet you could really use one right now, huh". hee hee hee
Yes, I remember 3.2 beer. But then I remember when the pyramids were built, too.
 

aftershocks

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,293
"This seems noteworthy — Chief Justice Roberts biographer on CNN just now: Roberts worried about the “taint” Kavanaugh being seated would bring to the whole court."
I guess Clarence Thomas being seated and turning out to be a total f'ing nonenity (suck-up right wing conservative) is already one taint too many on the highest court of the land. :p

There was grandstanding on both sides among senate judiciary committee. But the Repubs as usual are so blatant and holier-than-thou claiming it's only the Dems being partisan. :rofl: Merrick Garland (a well-regarded conservative judge with moderate leanings) was pushed aside unceremoniously by partisan Repubs who refused to show him common courtesy because he was nominated by President Obama. But now under horrid Trump, Repubs are trying to ramrod icky Kavanaugh down our throats without full, fair and well-considered due process. Lindsay 'Attack Dog' Graham was foaming at the mouth and sweating bullets. Shizz from high school daze has come back big time to bite ol' Kav in the butt. Even his old college friends from Yale are calling out Kav's lying and misrepresenting his notorious behavior. Lynne Brookes (a former Yale classmate is "extremely disappointed" in Brett Kavanaugh's evasive testimony and mischaracterization/ "blatant lying" about his drinking behavior in college):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upxbLT5iP70

It was mighty interesting when the Repubs didn't like sex abuse prosecutor Rachel Mitchell's line of questioning of Kavanaugh (an attorney the Repubs themselves had hired)! Repubs shut down Mitchell and began grabbing the microphone in support of Kavanaugh, but sat mutely when Ford testified. :lol:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/27/politics/christine-blasey-ford-testimony/index.html
 
Last edited:

Fan123

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,158
We've been through this before already, but you really expect either one of those four to remember a completely insignificant "event" (I hesitate to call it even that, and like Dr. Ford said, it was NOT a party and was a "pre-gathering")? I doubt any of them was the wallflower type for which even a gathering like this would be memorable. We're probably talking about kids who attended dozens of shindigs and got wasted at many if not all of them, and this one little unremarkable "pre-gathering" is supposed to stick out in their minds nearly 40 years later?! I bet whoever drove Dr. Ford to this get-together barely registered that fact weeks later let alone decades on.



That may be the case with Fan123, but you've been yammering on for years on this forum (neat name change, bek!), long enough for me to decide that you would probably be sympathetic to or feel sorry for someone like Kavanaugh.



As far as I remember, in her testimony she couldn't recall who drove her to and from the gathering; she only knows that she didn't drive there herself.
Whether or not the event was a party, gathering, significant or not, when all 4 said no such event took place or don't remember ever being there is troubling. If so, who's house was it? Why were there no adults? Who else was invited? Who drove her there? How did she leave the house? She may not remember who drove her there, but how can she not also remember who drove her home? If such person did exist, then the pre-gathering did exist, thus the horrific assault in the room. These are some of the questions I think the FBI may ask with their new investigation, and could help CF. As for driving to/from herself, she was only 15, not of legal driving age. If the gathering did occur, I suspect a parent or an older sibling was likely the driver, and would have come foward by now. I don't expect her to remember everyone at the gathering, but she should remember a family member. They obviously didn't stay at the gathering, so she must have called for them to drive her home. This lack of a driver eyewitness is extremely crucial to me, more so than recalling the address and other details. It would prove to me if the gathering occurred. The driver, if existed, needs to come foward. CF may very well not remember who it was, but with all the media coverage, you would think that person would surely have come foward by now! Otherwise it's possible the gathering never happened! Maybe a faulty memory?
 
Last edited:

Cachoo

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,670
Whether or not the event was a party, gathering, significant or not, when all 4 said no such event took place or don't remember ever being there is troubling. If so, who's house was it? Why were there no adults? Who else was invited? Who drove her there? How did she leave the house? She may not remember who drove her there, but how can she not also remember who drove her home? If such person did exist, then the pre-gathering did exist, thus the horrific assault in the room. These are some of the questions I think the FBI may ask with their new investigation, and could help CF. As for driving to/from herself, she was only 15, not of legal driving age. If the gathering did occur, I suspect a parent or an older sibling was likely the driver, and would have come foward by now. I don't expect her to remember everyone at the gathering, but she should remember a family member. They obviously didn't stay at the gathering, so she must have called for them to drive her home. This lack of a driver eyewitness is extremely crucial to me, more so than recalling the address and other details. It would prove to me if the gathering occurred. She could very well mistaken its existence or that it never existed! The driver, if existed, needs to come foward. CF may not remember who it was, but with all the media coverage, you would think someone would have come foward by now!
Who would she call? She rushed out of the house to get away from the two boys. She was outside of the house and could not call anyone at that point.
 

Lchan

Active Member
Messages
58
This lack of a driver eyewitness is extremely crucial to me, more so than recalling the address and other details. It would prove to me if the gathering occurred. The driver, if existed, needs to come foward. CF may very well not remember who it was, but with all the media coverage, you would think someone would have come foward by now! Otherwise the gathering never happened!
I understand that in Saudi Arabia a woman's testimony is worth nothing in a court of law unless she can produce a man to back her up.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
23,140
We should never assume anything about a situation that someone should have remembered or paid attention to every single detail. We just don't. Traumatic situations don't happen to everyone everyday. It is not like learning a new skill where we practice it every day (eg learning to drive) so we develop a certain degree of confidence about it. It is not as if we have the life experience to note that "Oh I must remember everything about this in case I need to recall this many years down the track".

It is so easy to say that "She should have done this or that" when we are not in that person's shoes and not going through that same situation. Things are never that straight forward.

I was watching a woman on a program yesterday talk about the two sexual assaults she had experienced in her life. The first one she never saw the attacker and she never reported. The second one which happened 10 years later she paid attention to every detail, even to scratching the guy so she had his DNA under her fingernails. She reported it but I don't think the perpetrator was convicted of potential rape because of the difficulty of proving it. However he did get charged with assault. She was also lucky she had witnesses who helped pull the guy off her. Hate to say it but the first experience probably helped her deal with the second experience. Still she never should have had to go through it if the men had behaved themselves.
 

Fan123

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,158
Who would she call? She rushed out of the house to get away from the two boys. She was outside of the house and could not call anyone at that point.
Since she lived pretty far from the gathering, she couldn't have walked home herself, so by reason of deduction, there are only a few handful of folks who could've driven her home. If so, why not include those folks as her eyewitness? She may not remember who they were, but they could, and should come foward by now, wouldn't you think? I suspect if they weren't waiting outside the house the whole time, she would have needed to call them on the phone for pickup, unless everything was timed coincidentally that a car was waiting for her as she rushed outside the house.
 
Last edited:

once_upon

New condo owner
Messages
15,062
Exactly, if it was a sibling, parent, or friend, why she didn't name them as eyewitnesses? She remembers the 4 others, but the one she left out could've been the most important. The 4 others didn't do her any good.

If someone drove her there, and stayed with her at the party, who was it? When she ran out of the house, who drove her home? To me, everything else can be fuzzy, but remembering who took you there and/or who you left with should be clear, and as the #1 eyewitness.
When I was assaulted, my siblings were at the same event as me (in a movie theater), they were focused on the movie not the man who sat next to me. They barely acknowledged me going to the bathroom.

It was not a traumatic event for them, they had no idea what happened. They would not recall. I doubt they would recall we went to the kids matinee every week during the summer. Because it wasn't an event of childhood that they were traumatized by.

I cannot recall the movie that was playing, I cannot recall the date or which day of the week it was - I assume it was a Thursday (see above), but it could have been a Tuesday or Wednesday; the other days that it cost a dime to go to (i remember it was summer and the Strand gave kids opportunity to see a cartoon and Three Stooges or similar movie for reduced price).

I can give you an approximate day of the week & the approximate year range (1965 or 1966), based on how old my sister might have been to be left in the care of siblings, but nothing other than that.

I have to assume we got home by public transportation, bus, because that was how we went to the movie theater anytime we went to the kids matinee. But I could not tell you clear recollection, I would have answered I don't remember. But I do remember his hands on me and what happened when I told.

Unless you've been through a similar trauma, don't say things you are positive you would do, because you don't know.
 

Fan123

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,158
When I was assaulted, my siblings were at the same event as me (in a movie theater), they were focused on the movie not the man who sat next to me. They barely acknowledged me going to the bathroom.

It was not a traumatic event for them, they had no idea what happened. They would not recall. I doubt they would recall we went to the kids matinee every week during the summer. Because it wasn't an event of childhood that they were traumatized by.

I cannot recall the movie that was playing, I cannot recall the date or which day of the week it was - I assume it was a Thursday (see above), but it could have been a Tuesday or Wednesday; the other days that it cost a dime to go to (i remember it was summer and the Strand gave kids opportunity to see a cartoon and Three Stooges or similar movie for reduced price).

I can give you an approximate day of the week & the approximate year range (1965 or 1966), based on how old my sister might have been to be left in the care of siblings, but nothing other than that.

I have to assume we got home by public transportation, bus, because that was how we went to the movie theater anytime we went to the kids matinee. But I could not tell you clear recollection, I would have answered I don't remember. But I do remember his hands on me and what happened when I told.

Unless you've been through a similar trauma, don't say things you are positive you would do, because you don't know.
Thanks for sharing your assault to us. You're right, I don't know, and have never been through a similar trauma. Like I said, I'm not expecting DF to have remembered every single detail, but by reason of deduction, it would have helped her to identify her driver as proof the existence of the gathering. Since she couldn't remember the driver, it's reasonable the driver could remember, and have come foward by now. I'm not asking for the details, cuz they are credible. This is crucial cuz the 4 eyewitnesses said there was no gathering or remember being there. Had any of them not refuted, no need to ask for an additional eyewitness to support her, imo..
 
Last edited:

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,340
I agree with you completely, and totally have sympathy for DF, but saying 4 eyewitnesses were at the party, when they were not, or at least they don’t remember ever being there really puzzles me.
What do you remember from 36 years ago? While it's not been 36 years yet since I was 15, it's still been a while and I can say with certainty that I was at no party because I was more of an outsider and stuck to myself and my dance school. But while I spent all of my afternoons in my dance school, I would have to consult my diary to find out what we performed 36 years ago. And if someone told that I attended a certain class or rehearsal, I'd have to shrug and say "if you say so".

There is one birthday party of my then best friend that I remember because she celebrated the evening/night that Princess Diana died and for some reason that stuck with me. But if you asked me what I did a week later for my own birthday, I couldn't tell you.


Why were there no adults?
Maybe they weren't home and the kids were not allowed to party? Aforementioned then best friend once hosted a party at her parents house while everyone was away. I couldn't tell you what year it was but it stuck with me because she wasn't allowed to, there was a lot of alcohol involved and a lot of trouble for her afterwards.
 

once_upon

New condo owner
Messages
15,062
It was a non event to them. They were not traumatized.

It could be that drinking parties happened every week during the summer (that I can believe) so a specific one is a non event for those not traumatized.

it could be they don't remember every party and they were underage and not willing to admit that UNDER oath that they spent most every week breaking the law.

it could be that the sex activities were so common that it didn't make an impact on them.

It could be all three, and no one wants to say it under oath to the committee or FBI. I don't know.
 

once_upon

New condo owner
Messages
15,062
And this amount of detail I just gave? This forum has gotten details that I've only shared with my husband and my doctor. I know I'm not to be blamed, I'm a victim, but the level of shame at being a victim is unbearable.

See how that goes? Isn't that similar to Dr. Ford's? When it's that level of disclosure, it's unlikely that you've told many people. Especially, if you were at a place you know at 15 would be somewhere you shouldn't have been - a party where drinking and males were present and no adult present.

Knowing how difficult this is for me, I cannot imagine how difficult it would've been to say my experience before the committee AND the whole world.
 

Japanfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
23,268
I understand that in Saudi Arabia a woman's testimony is worth nothing in a court of law unless she can produce a man to back her up.
In Iran, the testimony of a woman is considered to be worth half the testimony of a man. :mad:
 

Fan123

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,158
It was a non event to them. They were not traumatized.

It could be that drinking parties happened every week during the summer (that I can believe) so a specific one is a non event for those not traumatized.

it could be they don't remember every party and they were underage and not willing to admit that UNDER oath that they spent most every week breaking the law.

it could be that the sex activities were so common that it didn't make an impact on them.

It could be all three, and no one wants to say it under oath to the committee or FBI. I don't know.
Hmmm, I'm not disputing the specifics of the gathering, I'm questioning why DF hasn't named her driver as an eyewitness. Since she doesn't remember, why hasn't the driver independently come forward to support her by now? Like I said, if it was a family member, the more reason to do so, especially when her 4 other witnesses couldn't recall such gathering. When I was 15, the only people who had given me rides were my parents and older siblings. They would rush to my defense to support my claim.
 

once_upon

New condo owner
Messages
15,062
:wall: they don't know!!!! If she didn't disclose at the time, it's a non event to them. They could have picked her up a number of times. What would in their minds made that night stand out, if she didn't disclose? NOTHING. like my siblings couldn't tell anything about that summer.

You are looking at this as a non victim. And being rather linear. In your mind if x (assault) happened then y (drive home) happened and xy should be remember by someone who was not affected by x. And that what happened to Dr.Ford (x) should remember ( y ) to equal xy and she should remember ( y ).

I have to quit engaging in this discussion, you are looking at this as a non-victim. You either can't understand or are choosing not to try to comprehend. This discussion is too difficult to continue.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
Messages
62,652
Fan123 is baiting all of you. He repeats the same post over and over and over. Just stop replying to him.
 

Fan123

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,158
Hmmm, I'm not disputing the specifics of the gathering, I'm questioning why DF hasn't named her driver as an eyewitness. Since she doesn't remember, why hasn't the driver independently come forward to support her by now? Like I said, if it was a family member, the more reason to do so, especially when her 4 other witnesses couldn't recall such gathering. When I was 15, the only people who had given me rides were my parents and older siblings. They would rush to my defense to support my claim.
Fan123 is baiting all of you. He repeats the same post over and over and over. Just stop replying to him.
My apology if you feel this way. It may have come across as me blaming the victim, DF...but I'm actually not. Why is her driver as another eyewitness crucial, imo? The FBI has just begun their own investigation, and as it stands, unless DF comes up with a witness to support the existence of the gathering, I'm afraid their finding wouldn't favor her. DF already has given a heart wrenching and credible testimony, especially what happened in the room. Imo, all is needed now is a witness to support that the gathering did exist, cuz the 4 others don't remember. Since all of them doesn't remember or dispute the claim of ever being there, it's prudent for the driver to come forward to support DF. And it is what it is if DF can't come up with the name of the driver, or if the driver also doesn't remember giving DF a ride to the gathering.
 

FiveRinger

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,373
If Kavanaugh loved and respected his family as he claims, he would step down and withdraw his name from this confirmation process. He is lying and his family is suffering horribly because of it. What we already know is the tip of the iceberg. He should spare them what is coming.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
32,189
If Kavanaugh loved and respected his family as he claims, he would step down and withdraw his name from this confirmation process. He is lying and his family is suffering horribly because of it. What we already know is the tip of the iceberg. He should spare them what is coming.
He won’t. In one of the articles linked above where a former colleague of his who used to be part of the same extreme conservative circles and was there during Kavanaugh’s Ken Starr investigation days chronicles Kavanaugh’s behavior and personality, Kavanaugh feels entitled to this position because he was part of that super conservative political advocacy group and has already seen his friends and colleagues in that same circle move up the ladder to big things, gain important positions of power, and have titles. Although being a DC Circuit Court judge is a highly prestigious position and anyone who wants to be a judge would be extremely honored to be a Circuit Court judge and being one means you are somebody, the Supreme Court is the top level. It does not get any higher than that. It is it.

That explains his spoiled petulant child behavior on Thursday. He feels entitled to it. He’s a type of man who is not used to not getting what he wants. Which is probably why he’s in trouble in the first place.
 

FGRSK8

Toad whisperer.....
Messages
19,367
Kavanaugh is in deep trouble even if you apply the scientific method to this case.

Assume both facts are true: Ford was sexually assaulted, Kavanaugh wasn't present.

The only way both facts can be true simultaneously is if he was not at the party.

Even if someone says I think he might have been there, he fails the scientific method....he is done!
 
Last edited:

my little pony

war crawling into canada
Messages
34,894
about the same time as BK was trying to rape women, I was in an attempted car jacking. I know it happened. I remember what the guy said. I dont know how we got home. im sure there are other things I dont remember about it.
if someone said I was making it up, id probably stab them.
 

caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,305
If Kavanaugh loved and respected his family as he claims, he would step down and withdraw his name from this confirmation process. He is lying and his family is suffering horribly because of it. What we already know is the tip of the iceberg. He should spare them what is coming.
Of course this makes sense! Many men kill themselves when in scandal. One even did so publicly on TV! Disturbing. That’s extreme but it’s always helpful to drop out of society completely if you can!
 

Vagabond

Well-Known Member
Messages
15,939
Poll: 48% of white evangelicals would support Kavanaugh even if the allegations against him were true

What do they teach in those churches? :confused:

Such a perspective fits neatly within the context of evangelical sexual culture, which in recent months has been characterized by a wider suspicion of the #MeToo movement. Within evangelical culture, as I’ve written previously, the idea that women are “supposed” to be the gatekeepers of male sexuality, that male sexual urges are inherently uncontrollable, and the idea that forgiveness is automatically “owed” to any alleged abuser, converge to create a climate in which allegations of sexual harassment and abuse tend to be seen as minor or, at least, forgivable.
The New Testament does not say that victims must forgive the unrepentant. To the contrary, it says those whom one does not forgive are unforgiven. (John 20:21-22.) Maybe these evangelicals have not read the Gospels? :unsure:
 
Last edited:

once_upon

New condo owner
Messages
15,062
Women are property, Eve was the root of all evils as she gave Adam the Apple to eat and women are always asking for it?
 

Fan123

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,158
Kavanaugh is in deep trouble even if you apply the scientific method to this case.

Assume both facts are true: Ford was sexually assaulted, Kavanaugh wasn't present.

The only way both facts can be true simultaneously is if he was not at the party.

Even if someone says I think he might have been, he fails the scientific method....he is done!
I agree! And if the party never existed. The only person who has made that claim is DF. I just wish someone else will also.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
32,189
Poll: 48% of white evangelicals would support Kavanaugh even if the allegations against him were true

What do they teach in those churches? :confused:



The New Testament does not say that victims must forgive the unrepentant. To the contrary, it says those whon one does not forgive are unforgiven. (John 20:21-22.) Maybe these evangelicals have not read the Gospels? :unsure:
It’s what @topaz was saying earlier. This isn’t about this fight really. These people have been wanting to turn this country backwards for so long and have been waiting a decade or so to do so. Putting Kavanaugh on the Court and establishing a certain kind of jurisprudence will change the course of this country. I’m not overspeaking when I say that. Even though Kavanaugh can be replaced with someone similar they don’t want to be “defeated” here as it will undermine Trump and the extreme right wing conservatives who are pulling his strings. For them it’s really about waging this cultural war. That is why people who are combating it in all kinds of ways should know these people have actually declared war on us and we need to fight back in kind or harder. Sorry but take no prisoners.
 

Susan1

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,960
Now here is what I find especially troubling about Kavanaugh aside from Dr. Ford's testimony: He lies and he lies a lot. His yearbook talks about boofing and FFFFFF(Fourth of July) and Devil's Triangle and Ralphing and he lied about some of those things when asked about them. He also did this about "Renate alumnus" as well and laughed off his yearbook credits. He started off ok talking about "Animal House" and "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" but when it came to explaining some meanings he lied. The guy is under oath. I hope the NYT or WaPo compiles a list of his lies now and add any other time he has lied in earlier hearings. I believe a Supreme Court judge can be impeached.

Also remember when he said "The Sweatnik thing is a joke": Does that mean the other accusations are real?
Why would a high school or college put veiled references to sex and/or illegal things in a yearbook? Did anyone's parents ever see these things? Or did they collectively come up with an innocent explanation for the sleazy clues? Where were the adults? Is it just a prep school/spoiled male thing? I only went to school a couple years earlier than he did and our senior pages just listed legitimate clubs and sports. I was in choir and a library worker (shocker, huh?). :) I would like to see what other boys' paragraphs said. Anybody else in the KEG Club? Uh, Kids Education Gateway? Or the "I vomit a lot from spicy food" club. What about other students at Yale. Did girls have coded dirty "clubs"?

This calendar crap? Why would he write down every guy that was there on July 1 thing, where they are saying there were more guys there than the ones she mentioned. Oh my god, she must have lied? Hm. maybe they left earlier or came after. Did he need to write this stuff down all the time because he was too drunk to remember? Seven guys sitting around drinking beer and then going to sleep - whoopee, can't wait.

I'm not going to go look aat the calendars again right now, but I only remember seeing one blown up one that said "mow grass" or lawn or whatever. Shouldn't that have been on there every week, if he's so precise and thorough. What else didn't he write down. Why was this boy scout grounded? I bet he would say he doesn't remember since it wasn't on his calendar.

No. She said she didn't remember being at the gathering. BIG difference. Nothing remarkable happened to her, that's why.
Totally innocent here, but who remembers what they wore to school on the first day of 9th grade 40plus years ago? I do because I came from a Catholic school and uniforms every day, so I wore a new dress. Practically everybody else had on jeans. I only wore a dress to school a couple more times in four years when we had to dress up for something.
 
Last edited:

MarieM

Grumpy Cynical Ice Dance Lover
Messages
9,531
I saw that the women from that era in those catholic all girls schools are starting to come out. Let's hope some of them will provide additionnal context to Dr Ford's story. As it is, I know she didn't want criminal charges, she just wanted people to consider HIS character. And I don't see any of that playing into any republicans and croonies accounts.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 2)

Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information