US elections 2021-2022

Allskate

Well-Known Member
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11,863
Obviously I'm not rural, but 4-day schoolweeks would be a nightmare for me and are definitely something I would never support. Yeah it might be nice for the occasional 3-day travel weekend ... but what about the rest of the weeks?? I mean, it's less learning time for kids, it's an extra day of daycare costs for kids 10 and under, and, let's be honest, an extra day of wasted time probably spent on phones/devices for kids over 10. Obviously, just my perspective here, one individual.

In other news, a poll in Florida has Val Demings up 4 points over Marco Rubio:

https://twitter.com/MeidasTouch/status/1559538911541489664
I definitely don't feel like we can rely on polls this year. But, hopeful poll results DO make me feel a little bit more fired up about volunteering for campaigns this fall. :D

I read that this poll is based on registered voters, not likely voters, which probably partly explains why the results are different from other polls. Republicans generally are expected to have better turnout than Democrats for the mid-terms.

As for a four-day workweek, I don't know any parents, including stay-at-home mothers, who want their kids home an extra day. So many parents rely on school as day care.

But, I can see why some parents, especially in rural areas, might support a four-day work week for teachers. Schools in general are having an increasingly difficult time retaining and recruiting teachers. It's a huge problem and an even bigger problem in rural school districts. I'm sure most kids don't want longer school days, especially if it cuts into after-school activities such as sports. And anyone with kids knows that most kids, especially young kids, can't really learn well with a very long day. But, some parents might appreciate the free day care for the end of the day.

One option is to allow teachers to work four days but have kids come to school five days, with teachers taking turns with the day they have off. Maybe the kids can have one day that is devoted to things that do not require the presence of teachers who teach core subjects. For example, one day could just be P.E., any electives, assemblies, reading time, and study hall. They might have to pay someone to baby-sit the kids during some of that time and the four other days might be a bit more intense, but it still would help with recruitment. I don't know whether this would meet legal requirements, though.
 

Louis

Private citizen
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18,319
parents also LOVE 4-day school weeks. They like having 3-day weekends to travel with their families. It's very popular here. It also helps small schools recruit teachers, as teachers LOVE 4-day school weeks

Schools exist for children, not for parents or teachers - so I don’t care how convenient it is for people to f*ck over kids’ education for their own selfish benefit. But “f*ck the kids” would be accurate slogan for Democratic school policy over the past few years.

As for Cheney, I’m happy to see this dynasty die, and I’m sad to see so many others allow one brave act to cancel our decades of terrible ones. I’m as happy to see her gone as I am to see Trump gone, and I don’t want either of them back. Don’t let the door hit you.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
26,136
Schools exist for children, not for parents or teachers - so I don’t care how convenient it is for people to f*ck over kids’ education for their own selfish benefit. But “f*ck the kids” would be accurate slogan for Democratic school policy over the past few years.
So you are not concerned about school boards imposing censorship over what is taught (including one version of religion) or held in libraries? Because that is a pretty big FU to education. Oh wait the Dems aren't doing that are they? Again projection!!!
 

ballettmaus

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17,731
Schools exist for children, not for parents or teachers - so I don’t care how convenient it is for people to f*ck over kids’ education for their own selfish benefit. But “f*ck the kids” would be accurate slogan for Democratic school policy over the past few years.
The 4-day-week is due to teacher shortages. It's not Democrats who make the job unattractive, disrespect teachers and their value and are against better pay, working conditions and school funding.
 

Louis

Private citizen
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18,319
The 4-day-week is due to teacher shortages. It's not Democrats who make the job unattractive, disrespect teachers and their value and are against better pay, working conditions and school funding.

Relax standards and end welfare, and you’ll have plenty of teachers. Or hire a childminder for the classroom and have Dr Patel or Dr Gonzalez zoom in from India or the Philippines. Four day weeks are not an acceptable answer.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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51,480
Schools exist for children, not for parents or teachers - so I don’t care how convenient it is for people to f*ck over kids’ education for their own selfish benefit. But “f*ck the kids” would be accurate slogan for Democratic school policy over the past few years.
It's rural schools in largely Red areas that are doing this. But, sure, blame the Dems.
Relax standards and end welfare, and you’ll have plenty of teachers. Or hire a childminder for the classroom and have Dr Patel or Dr Gonzalez zoom in from India or the Philippines. Four day weeks are not an acceptable answer.
I care about kids so my solution for educational issues is to relax standards and hire babysitters so kids can have zoom lectures from people whose first language is not English. Yeah, that's going to serve kids well and give them a good education that prepares them for the future. :rolleyes:
 

Susan1

Well-Known Member
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12,006
While we are not on the subject of elections - this irritates me -


Isn't high school supposed to prepare you for life? One more example of how kids are so spoiled these days. When they grow up and have to go out in the world to work "oh, that's too early". I guess they'll all be working from home be then. I know I sound like a grumpy old lady, and we didn't walk uphill both ways in the snow, but geez, I am. They are so fragile. A couple of times we were still standing at the bus stop at 7:45 (the time school started) when my mom left for work and she piled a bunch of us into her Firebird and took us to school. Everybody who was supposed to be on the bus got excused for being late. My dad left the house at 6 a.m. to go to work at Chrysler.

And, all this counseling crap. Anything that happens: the pandemic, a fire in the town, a classmate died, somebody got a bad grade - call in the mental health professionals. When I was in 3rd grade, my friend Diane's mother died. Our whole class went to the funeral (the church was in the basement of the school). Nobody needed counseling. I missed the first day of 11th grade for my grandmother's funeral. The counselors didn't all come running on the second day of school to hold my hand and talk about my feelings. The Diary of Anne Frank was required reading in that same Catholic School. I forget what grade. How did kids make it through WWII and the Depression without being smothered by mental health professionals?
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
26,136
Relax standards and end welfare, and you’ll have plenty of teachers. Or hire a childminder for the classroom and have Dr Patel or Dr Gonzalez zoom in from India or the Philippines. Four day weeks are not an acceptable answer.
How about making their jobs worthwhile instead of concentrating on dealing mass shooters. And what about being told what to teach or having their funding cut which makes the profession totally demoralising. Oh wait that happens because of Republicans, not Democrats.

You are following the GQP playbook which is to project and gaslight on everyone else because it detracts from the fact that the GQP are the biggest bunch of hypocrites and are doing nothing to help their constituents.
 

ballettmaus

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17,731
Relax standards and end welfare, and you’ll have plenty of teachers.
Sure, sure, teachers who have had to work two jobs to make ends meet decided to quit their jobs so that they can live off the oh-so-generous welfare the US offers. It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they found jobs that pay more and treat them better. :rolleyes:

ETA: There probably also is a percentage of teachers who are now on disability after a Covid infection. They have no choice but to live off welfare though or move into a job that is less demanding regardless of pay.

Or hire a childminder for the classroom and have Dr Patel or Dr Gonzalez zoom in from India or the Philippines. Four day weeks are not an acceptable answer.
I agree, four days are not an acceptable answer but you just complained that Democrats didn't care about the kids. And now you want to lower the standard for teachers or have a zoom teacher from across the world whose first language isn't English, has never met the students and therefore, cannot know what may be troubling a certain student and who has no idea what outside circumstances might currently be on a students' mind? (Weren't you complaining about online school during the pandemic?) How is giving students less qualified teachers and teachers from halfway around the world caring about students?
 
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MacMadame

Doing all the things
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51,480
Isn't high school supposed to prepare you for life? One more example of how kids are so spoiled these days. When they grow up and have to go out in the world to work "oh, that's too early".
I work in a profession where no meetings are scheduled until 10 am and doing them earlier (which we have to do sometimes due to time zone differences) comes with apologies. So not every job is the same.

However, I believe there is a flaw in your logic. We don't treat 2-year-olds the same as 10-year-olds when it comes to sleep, so why should we treat teenagers the same as adults? When these teens get older, their sleep cycles and requirements will change naturally. There is no reason to force it now except to do it the way we always did it.

Nobody needed counseling.
That you know about. Though I have never seen counselors being brought in because a classmate's relative died. It's for things like mass shootings or a student committing suicide. Or the town being destroyed by fire.

When I was in college one of the students committed suicide and she was someone who lived on our dorm floor where I was the RA before dropping out the final semester. I can tell you that many people on our floor, all of whom were legal adults, definitely needed some help processing their feelings including feelings of guilt that they didn't do more to reach out when the student was living with us. We didn't call in counselors per se (it was the 70s after all) but we did have a big meeting with a teacher who had a related degree to facilitate for people to talk about it. And I was put on watch to look for people who needed more and direct them to that teacher. Suicides, in particular, spawn more suicides.

How is giving students less qualified teachers and teachers from halfway around the world caring about students?
It's not. But it makes sense to people who think anyone can teach and teachers are whiny because they want to make a living wage.
 

tony

The older, the crankier
Messages
13,495
And, all this counseling crap. Anything that happens: the pandemic, a fire in the town, a classmate died, somebody got a bad grade - call in the mental health professionals. When I was in 3rd grade, my friend Diane's mother died. Our whole class went to the funeral (the church was in the basement of the school). Nobody needed counseling. I missed the first day of 11th grade for my grandmother's funeral. The counselors didn't all come running on the second day of school to hold my hand and talk about my feelings. The Diary of Anne Frank was required reading in that same Catholic School. I forget what grade. How did kids make it through WWII and the Depression without being smothered by mental health professionals?
Oh, Susan. You and all the members of this board know well enough that things have progressively gotten much more understood throughout generations, and I really, really don't like when someone who is older comes in with nonsense such as this. You were told to deal with it, is what you are saying. Guess what? Now there is recognition that some people can't and shouldn't simply just 'deal with it'. Isn't it better to have those resources available?

When I was in 3rd grade, there was a huge tragedy in my town when one of my classmates was killed by his father after a long standoff with the police. We all went to school after that weekend, it was briefly talked about, and that was really it. Having the offer for students who were close to him to actually go talk to someone would have been greatly beneficial IMO, and this was mid-90's. What I think was more likely is that said children would've had to really express to their parents that they were feeling some kind of way and hoped that they sent them to talk to someone.

If you want to go back to living in a world where women didn't have as many rights as they do now, where homosexuality was hardly accepted by the general population, where interracial marriage would've been unheard of, etc. then you probably could jump ship and start voting opposite of what you do now. I get this 'that's how it was for me and everyone should just deal' pretty often here.
 
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once_upon

Enough
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24,029
I believe @Dobre comments about 4 day school schedules is about listening to teachers, students, patents. Not to be done because teachers are lazy or to address recruitment of teachers. Same with changing times with later starts for high school.

Teenagers, because of hormonal changes occurring during those years, have changing circadian rhythms. This is a documented fact. Their brains function better when we pay attention to their needs. One article said, that expecting teens to be at school and ready to learn at 6:45-7:00, is similar to expecting adults to be at work at 4:30 and be productive.

Grades and graduation rates begin to improve. We absolutely need to listen to research and act accordingly.

I wasn't thrilled when nurses requested a change to 10 hour days or 12 hour days. But staff like the extra days -:if only that they can work a second job to make ends meet.

I refuse to engage with people who haven't been in a classroom teaching flippantly saying anyone can teach.
 

Susan1

Well-Known Member
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12,006
If you want to go back to living in a world where women didn't have as many rights as they do now, where homosexuality was hardly accepted by the general population, where interracial marriage would've been unheard of, etc. then you probably could jump ship and start voting opposite of what you do now. I get this 'that's how it was for me and everyone should just deal' pretty often here.
What I said doesn't have anything to do with any of that. I'm talking about the 70s not the 50s.

However, I believe there is a flaw in your logic. We don't treat 2-year-olds the same as 10-year-olds when it comes to sleep, so why should we treat teenagers the same as adults? When these teens get older, their sleep cycles and requirements will change naturally.
I was thinking more like 16-17 year olds who stay up half the night on their phones then can't get up in the morning. Of course grade school kids need more sleep. And I will agree that teenagers' brains are not developed. I don't think any of them should be driving to school tired in the morning. It's funny it's only California that's doing this.
 

myhoneyhoney

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2,952
While we are not on the subject of elections - this irritates me -


Isn't high school supposed to prepare you for life? One more example of how kids are so spoiled these days. When they grow up and have to go out in the world to work "oh, that's too early". I guess they'll all be working from home be then. I know I sound like a grumpy old lady, and we didn't walk uphill both ways in the snow, but geez, I am. They are so fragile.

Do you have any idea of what teens have to do now to get accepted into a good college? Most of the time 4.0 isn’t enough, you need AP classes so you’re ABOVE 4.0. There are sports, other school sponsored extra curricular activities, volunteer work hours…. Then add in the stress of hopefully not getting shot to death. Oh, by the way, not all school districts offer free school bussing, some districts charge in the hundreds, so there’s the stress of how to get to and from school too. Their classes may not begin until after 8am but they are at it until 8pm, sometimes longer if they had a game and still the regular homework to do, not to mention studying for any exams.

And some kids DO begin before 8am. My daughter has zero period, that begins 7:20am. We live in the San Francisco Bay Area.
 
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Dobre

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14,270
Is that true? Like every Friday afternoon?

The vast majority, yes. (My mother works with students for non-school events & generally plans activities around any Friday when there isn't a sporting event. She usually gets in only about 3 of those a year). Often the handful of students who remained behind were all put into the same classroom because there were only a couple teachers left; and of course, students couldn't learn anything serious then because everyone else would miss the lesson.

In a small school, mind you, not only are a large percentage of kids gone because they compete in the sports. (Something which they are highly pressured to do because otherwise there aren't enough kids to field a team). But anyone not competing is potentially in pep band or serving food at the snack shack in order to help raise money for class or activity funds. Or is serving as the team manager or cheerleading or has a sibling competing & hence the whole family is traveling to watch. Then the teachers are coaching or reffing or leading the pepband or supervising the snack shack/fundraising activities or subbing for grade school teachers who are coaching, etc.
 
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Susan1

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12,006
Funny story, and then something else - in high school, my dad had a standing tee time at 8 a.m. on Saturday morning with his usual foursome. If somebody couldn't make it, they would call the others to let them know so they wouldn't wait and could pick up a fourth at the golf course. One Saturday before 8 a.m., the phone rang and my phone (landline on a desk) was right by my head so I answered it still asleep. They asked for my dad and I said he was at work and hung up. They teased me about that for weeks.

This Friday off thing - schools here get a day or a week off every month - holidays, week long breaks, teacher in-service days. Last year, they announced that because the kids had had such a stressful year, school would be closed the Monday after the Bengals were playing in the Superbowl. School started on Monday. We didn't used to start till the Wednesday after Labor Day. I guess they have to do that so they can fit in those week-long fall and winter and spring breaks. Poor kids.
 

tony

The older, the crankier
Messages
13,495
What I said doesn't have anything to do with any of that. I'm talking about the 70s not the 50s.
Please humor me with the notion that homosexuality was widely accepted in the 70s, right before the AIDS crisis. But okay. My point was that you mentioned how it was during your time and how everyone got through it supposedly, but why not go all the way backwards?
 

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,731
I guess they'll all be working from home be then.
That will never happen but even if it did, research has shown that people who work from home are more productive. Most recently, a study found that people who work from home at least partially are 9% more productive. https://www.vox.com/recode/23129752/work-from-home-productivity
Where's the problem with more productivity?


And, all this counseling crap. Anything that happens: the pandemic, a fire in the town, a classmate died, somebody got a bad grade - call in the mental health professionals. When I was in 3rd grade, my friend Diane's mother died. Our whole class went to the funeral (the church was in the basement of the school). Nobody needed counseling.
How do you know that?
Do you really think a child would have been comfortable expressing such need and that parents would have been comfortable seeking out the help at a therapist at that time?

I missed the first day of 11th grade for my grandmother's funeral. The counselors didn't all come running on the second day of school to hold my hand and talk about my feelings. The Diary of Anne Frank was required reading in that same Catholic School. I forget what grade. How did kids make it through WWII and the Depression without being smothered by mental health professionals?
Just because they didn't have access to mental health professional doesn't mean they wouldn't have needed them. There's a reason many who lived through WWII hardly ever talk(ed) about it. Talking about it would (have) open(ed) up wounds and dig/dug up things they prefer(red) not to remember.

Everyone is different, everyone deals with trauma in a different way. While some may be able to deal with trauma or other events that weigh heavy on their mind by themselves, others may not be able to. For some, having a good support system in family and friends is enough, for others, it's not or they don't have that support system.

We should be glad that we hear more about counseling nowadays. It means that we've become more aware that mental health is healthcare. It means that we've become more accepting of mental health issues. It means we're acknowledging that mental health issues are real and that they're not a figment of someone's imagination. It means that people are more comfortable seeking counseling and being open about it. There really is nothing negative about an increase in counseling that I can think of.

I was thinking more like 16-17 year olds who stay up half the night on their phones then can't get up in the morning.
The reason they stay up at night is because their sleep rhythm has changed and they aren't tired. As others have pointed out, research has shown that (for most) teenagers their natural rhythm shifts during their teenage years. So, they would not be able to get up in the morning one way or another. They might not be as tired but they'd still have trouble being awake and fully present in school.

Starting school later will enhance a student's ability to learn and they will perform better in schools and for tests. That, in turn, will increase their chances at success later in life.

There are certainly many things with which children are pampered today. But starting school later is not one of them.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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51,480
Starting school later will enhance a student's ability to learn and they will perform better in schools and for tests. That, in turn, will increase their chances at success later in life.
I see another unintended consequence that it would be harder to do 1000x extra-curriculum activities which causes kids much stress and sometimes to kill themselves.
 

ballettmaus

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17,731
I see another unintended consequence that it would be harder to do 1000x extra-curriculum activities which causes kids much stress and sometimes to kill themselves.
I think it might generally decrease suicides because children who learn and perform better have less pressure, whether it's pressure they put on themselves or outside pressure.
 

canbelto

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,736
And, all this counseling crap. Anything that happens: the pandemic, a fire in the town, a classmate died, somebody got a bad grade - call in the mental health professionals. When I was in 3rd grade, my friend Diane's mother died. Our whole class went to the funeral (the church was in the basement of the school). Nobody needed counseling. I missed the first day of 11th grade for my grandmother's funeral. The counselors didn't all come running on the second day of school to hold my hand and talk about my feelings. The Diary of Anne Frank was required reading in that same Catholic School. I forget what grade. How did kids make it through WWII and the Depression without being smothered by mental health professionals?
Whoa, this is a “tell me you don’t work with kids without telling me you don’t work with kids” post. You have no idea how much bullying and vile behavior happens in school. This year a girl in our school was “doxxed” by her ex bf and she killed herrself. It was traumatic as hell and the teachers needed counseling. “Get over it” is a one way ticket for dysfunctional adults.
 

misskarne

Handy Emergency Backup Mode
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22,854
@Susan1 might have an absolute conniption if I told her that in Australia school commences at 9am, and not before, and that the earliest I had classes was 8:30 when I started Year 11.

Oh no, how spoiled and precious we must be. :rolleyes:

(Oh, and none of my university classes ran before 8:30, either, though this varies from university to university. However do we survive?)
 

jeffisjeff

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16,681
@Susan1 might have an absolute conniption if I told her that in Australia school commences at 9am, and not before, and that the earliest I had classes was 8:30 when I started Year 11.
When I was in Ireland, the day care opened at 8:45am, presumably so parents could drop off and get to work by 9am. In the US, they typically open by 7am. I definitely preferred the Irish approach!
 

myhoneyhoney

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2,952
I see another unintended consequence that it would be harder to do 1000x extra-curriculum activities which causes kids much stress and sometimes to kill themselves.
ETA: I don’t think the later start time is a drawback. I think possibly missing more classes because they have to leave early for sports is a drawback. I wonder if the games will have a later start time. I’ll check my daughter’s tennis match times: same 3:30 starts as last year.

This is absolutely a drawback. It was hard for kids to have to leave mid 5th period to make it to the games. If the game is farther away they leave at lunchtime. They try to change their schedules around so the less demanding classes are 5th and 6th but it’s not guaranteed.

They do homework on the way to the game when there’s enough light. During exam weeks the teams turn half of practice time as “study hall”.
 
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Louis

Private citizen
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18,319
I care about kids so my solution for educational issues is to relax standards and hire babysitters so kids can have zoom lectures from people whose first language is not English. :rolleyes:

India and the Philippines are English speaking countries. Plenty of people in both countries speak English natively or with full proficiency. A zoom setup could work with the right cameras, but I'd be happy to give teachers visas to come teach in person, too. There's clearly a shortage if we can't get people to work for five days a week. I'm sure there are well qualified teachers who would love to come to the U.S. to teach these students.

Plus, I don't actually see anything wrong with a teacher whose first language is not English. Plenty of teachers in the Southern U.S. and California probably fall into this category already. If a teacher is qualified, I don't give a rat's ass if they speak with an accent.

As for relaxing standards, Catholic school didn't require degreed teachers, and some of my better teachers were the ones without degrees. In the case of teacher shortages in elementary school, I am willing to look past degrees and look at those with the skills and abilities to teach: I know firsthand that they exist. For high school, I do think a degree or significant self-study in a subject is required.

I'm sure the Dem-controlled teachers unions will fight against all of these, but they're a better solution than "f*ck the kids, school will be whatever hours we feel like teaching."
 

Susan1

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12,006
There are so many hours in the day. If they go to school an hour later, everything else ends up being an hour later. Won't that make sports activities run later. Then homework run later. Then sleep run later. And then if this half day off on Friday is all to accommodate sports activities, won't all the schools they play have to be on the same schedule, whether they are rural or not.

@Susan1 might have an absolute conniption if I told her that in Australia school commences at 9am

There you go with the personal attacks again, talking about ME to other people, when I am sitting right here. It is passive-aggressive and rude and insulting. Conniption? As usual, if it was anybody else, you would just be discussing, not bullying me. Speaking of school, are you in 8th grade? What you did was point at me and whisper out loud, just to make me feel bad. Thanks. I saw an ad for a t-shirt that said "I'm not arguing, just discussing". THAT should be my quote on here. Or maybe some of you are trying to prove your point about everybody needing a therapist by making me feel wothless.

This has nothing to do with ANY OTHER COUNTRY or how any other country in the world has always done it. It is about some schools in California CHANGING their hours so teenagers get more sleep. We don't get month long "holidays" in the summer either. We had this discussion about saying "9 to 5" as working hours, when most of this country's standard is 8 to 5. That has nothing to do with Australia or Europe's working hours, school hours, daycare hours, politics, whatever.
 

Dai's Blues for Klook

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1,616
India and the Philippines are English speaking countries. Plenty of people in both countries speak English natively or with full proficiency. A zoom setup could work with the right cameras, but I'd be happy to give teachers visas to come teach in person, too. There's clearly a shortage if we can't get people to work for five days a week. I'm sure there are well qualified teachers who would love to come to the U.S. to teach these students.

Plus, I don't actually see anything wrong with a teacher whose first language is not English. Plenty of teachers in the Southern U.S. and California probably fall into this category already. If a teacher is qualified, I don't give a rat's ass if they speak with an accent.
I didn't understand the "first language" criticism either. Seems like a silly standard when there are so many immigrants in the US. Are they denied jobs as primary school teachers on the basis of their first language?

But I do hope you take care of your shortages on your own. I don't think you should attract teachers from third world countries who're probably suffering from their own shortages. You offer them more money and the prospect of living in the US, they'll leave immediately, making the situation even worse.

In the case of teacher shortages in elementary school, I am willing to look past degrees and look at those with the skills and abilities to teach: I know firsthand that they exist. For high school, I do think a degree or significant self-study in a subject is required.
Have to agree here, too.
 

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