Taso

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7,201
I though Isabeau’s jumps looked much better in practice at Nationals. She wasn’t slower and bent over as much. In the competition it was as if she was slowing them down a bit and being extra careful. They looked more effortless on the two practices I saw live. She was extremely impressive on the practices in all respect. I felt like she clearly won them.
This is great to know!
 

Maximillian

RIP TA
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4,866
My understanding is that Eteri doesn't take skaters until they are well beyond the stage of learning basic technique, so laying poor technique entirely on her doorstep seems a bit much. That she doesn't necessarily fix said technique is another story.

I also think the laying of poor technique entirely on the coach isn't entirely justified. My experience of skating and what I have seen from other skaters has been that I really wanted to jump and went way ahead of what I was being taught in lessons on my own. I developed a leg wrap right away, not because of how I was taught but because I 'jumped' ahead and was working on more advanced jumps than what I was taking. I think people assume that a skater spends most of their time in front of a coach each week, but the reality is that they spend a lot of time on the ice on their own in free skating sessions without the guidance of a coach. So bad technique and bad habits are frequently picked up by the skater attempting to 'move ahead' faster than what they are working on in their lessons. Again, that the coach shouldn't try to correct these mistakes is one thing but it's not necessarily easy, especially when at the single and double level you can get the jumps around with bad technique. What I am trying to say is that there are many factors that go into bad jump technique, not necessarily just poor coaching.
 

layman

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Messages
390
My understanding is that Eteri doesn't take skaters until they are well beyond the stage of learning basic technique, so laying poor technique entirely on her doorstep seems a bit much. That she doesn't necessarily fix said technique is another story.

I also think the laying of poor technique entirely on the coach isn't entirely justified. My experience of skating and what I have seen from other skaters has been that I really wanted to jump and went way ahead of what I was being taught in lessons on my own. I developed a leg wrap right away, not because of how I was taught but because I 'jumped' ahead and was working on more advanced jumps than what I was taking. I think people assume that a skater spends most of their time in front of a coach each week, but the reality is that they spend a lot of time on the ice on their own in free skating sessions without the guidance of a coach. So bad technique and bad habits are frequently picked up by the skater attempting to 'move ahead' faster than what they are working on in their lessons. Again, that the coach shouldn't try to correct these mistakes is one thing but it's not necessarily easy, especially when at the single and double level you can get the jumps around with bad technique. What I am trying to say is that there are many factors that go into bad jump technique, not necessarily just poor coaching.
Yes but it is the coaches job to correct bad technique/bad habits (where ever they come from). If the coach does not provide this service, why have a coach?
 

bladesofgorey

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Messages
526
So bad technique and bad habits are frequently picked up by the skater attempting to 'move ahead' faster than what they are working on in their lessons. Again, that the coach shouldn't try to correct these mistakes is one thing but it's not necessarily easy, especially when at the single and double level you can get the jumps around with bad technique. What I am trying to say is that there are many factors that go into bad jump technique, not necessarily just poor coaching.
This is a great point, and sometimes even when both a coach and a skater are trying to fix bad technique over time, the skater's body reverts back to what it's comfortable with even while the mind and will knows what's right. For anyone who has skated themselves and tried hard to improve their jumps rather than just "getting" them this can be a frustrating experience for everyone. What seems so simple (keep that arm anchored in front, don't let the head or upper body rotate too soon, etc.) seems so simple to control and correct in theory the moment before a jump takes off, but so difficult in practice during those split seconds.
 

Maximillian

RIP TA
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4,866
Yes but it is the coaches job to correct bad technique/bad habits (where ever they come from). If the coach does not provide this service, why have a coach?
As I said in my post, the coach can try to fix it, however sometimes that is easier said than done. I'm not saying that coaches aren't culpable for bad technique, I'm trying to say that there are often many reasons that a skater has poor technique.
 

Maximillian

RIP TA
Messages
4,866
This is a great point, and sometimes even when both a coach and a skater are trying to fix bad technique over time, the skater's body reverts back to what it's comfortable with even while the mind and will knows what's right. For anyone who has skated themselves and tried hard to improve their jumps rather than just "getting" them this can be a frustrating experience for everyone. What seems so simple (keep that arm anchored in front, don't let the head or upper body rotate too soon, etc.) seems so simple to control and correct in theory the moment before a jump takes off, but so difficult in practice during those split seconds.
Seriously! I haven't skater in years, but if I try doing jumps on the floor, I still have a leg wrap, even when I try not to.
 

layman

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Messages
390
That's very true. After Torino, we had a slew of Ladies Junior World Champions and medalists who would win medals and competitions internationally on the junior level. You'd think they'd be able to replicate that success once they became senior, but we saw what happened. It turns out our Gracie Gold/Ashley Wagner team really was a blessing because they were always on the cusp of the podium, would win competitions, and Ashley ended up medaling at Worlds once. And we gave them both such a hard time at the time.
Gracie and Ashley both have wonderful basic technique that sustained their long careers.

When I first saw Ashley (at the Junior level), I marveled at how fast she skated, the cleanliness of her jumps and the way she could get to the end of a long program without missing a single jump or even looking winded! She replicated that success on the Senior level when she won her World Silver.

When I first saw Gracie as a Junior, I marveled at the incredible spring in her jumps and the height and distance that she achieved in her jumps. I marveled at her speed, the amount of ice she can cover with just simple pushes. She has once in a generation talent...and in 2022 (as a Senior a decade later) she still shows that! ...the spring, the height and distance in her jumps, the centering on her spins and the incredible speed and flow in her skating...it's all there. I think Gracie has the best technique of all the US women.
 

sk8nlizard

Well-Known Member
Messages
955
Gracie and Ashley both have wonderful basic technique that sustained their long careers.

When I first saw Ashley (at the Junior level), I marveled at how fast she skated, the cleanliness of her jumps and the way she could get to the end of a long program without missing a single jump or even looking winded! She replicated that success on the Senior level when she won her World Silver.

When I first saw Gracie as a Junior, I marveled at the incredible spring in her jumps and the height and distance that she achieved in her jumps. I marveled at her speed, the amount of ice she can cover with just simple pushes. She has once in a generation talent...and in 2022 (as a Senior a decade later) she still shows that! ...the spring, the height and distance in her jumps, the centering on her spins and the incredible speed and flow in her skating...it's all there. I think Gracie has the best technique of all the US women.
I actually saw Gracie for the first time at Liberty summer competition when she was an Intermediate. I don’t even know if she had a double axel, but even then she was truly amazing. Huge jumps, fast spins and she was so fast across the ice. I remember people stopping to watch her compete even then. And I agree, I was at Nationals last week and shes still the best technician that the US has competing when it comes to jumps.
 

honey

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Messages
1,590
Gracie always had beautiful technique. She could get a bit wild in the air, but the foundation was solid. She did have a lip though.

I thoroughly disagree that Ashley had solid technique. She had a terrible two footing habit that took years to break, her axel wasn’t great (it didn’t go up at all), she had chronic under rotations and of course her flutz. The spins were also a sore spot, and by her own admission she didn’t practice them a lot.

Of the two, Gracie had to spend far less time reworking technique over the years. But in the end both had pretty successful careers, Ashley arguably more so. Obviously technique isn’t the be all and end all sometimes, but maybe Ashley would have been a world champion or multi world medalist if some of those fundamental flaws weren’t baked into her technique. As @layman mentioned, she did have the ability to fly through a program to the end without breaking a sweat. That’s a skill itself that many don’t have and served her well in her career.
 

Dai's Blues for Klook

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Messages
373
I thoroughly disagree that Ashley had solid technique. She had a terrible two footing habit that took years to break, her axel wasn’t great (it didn’t go up at all), she had chronic under rotations and of course her flutz. The spins were also a sore spot, and by her own admission she didn’t practice them a lot.
AND the basic skating.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,969
Ashley also had that competitive will to fight through her programs. It used to annoy me when people called Ashley a "fighter" until I realized what a skill it was to have that competitive fire and inner-fight. I took it for granted in her. I will say with that fire and competitive spirit, if she had better fundamentals (I agree that she was behind other ladies in that regard. I was surprised at how small her skating looked compared to many ladies at 2016 Skate America) and if her jumps were less prone to be called, she would have had even more success. However, Ashley refused to be defined by whatever it was she needed to work on because she succeeded so much. I bet most people don't even know she won her silver with two >s and a ! because she sold the hell of that Moulin Rouge program and demanded those PCS and GOEs.
 

olympic

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Messages
10,321
That's very true. After Torino, we had a slew of Ladies Junior World Champions and medalists who would win medals and competitions internationally on the junior level. You'd think they'd be able to replicate that success once they became senior, but we saw what happened. It turns out our Gracie Gold/Ashley Wagner team really was a blessing because they were always on the cusp of the podium, would win competitions, and Ashley ended up medaling at Worlds once. And we gave them both such a hard time at the time.
US Women lurched sideways after Torino due to a Perfect Storm of events: (1) Unofficial retirements of Kwan and Cohen; (2) Unusual implosions during the Vancouver quad of both ladies in waiting, Meissner and Hughes 2.0 (It appeared at 06 Worlds that Meissner had successfully grabbed the baton and was off); (3) Crackdown on edges and URs in the '06-'07 season (our women took a huge hit); (4) and the fact that the top US women who could catch your eye were Juniors and ineligible until halfway to Vancouver, but then were thrust into the spotlight along side Yu Na and the JPN women, inexperienced, nervous and wanting for technique. Drill down a bit on the Juniors and you see those who were steady were not that inspiring to watch (Flatt) and the best to watch were quite inconsistent (Nagasu). What luck! Footnote re Alissa Czisny who was one of the most nervous competitors I ever saw, but would win '09 Nationals with 3 triples (I think the tech was compared to Kerrigan's '93 Nationals performance).

It's been said, but the USFSA did a huge disservice to its women and US skating fans by not embracing the coming changes during the '00s. Perhaps, they got passive and were just thrilled to coast on the coattails of the legendary MK and to some extent Sasha. Kwan was on the podium every year from '96 - '04. But, they must have known it was going to end at some point
 

layman

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Messages
390
US Women lurched sideways after Torino due to a Perfect Storm of events: (1) Unofficial retirements of Kwan and Cohen; (2) Unusual implosions during the Vancouver quad of both ladies in waiting, Meissner and Hughes 2.0 (It appeared at 06 Worlds that Meissner had successfully grabbed the baton and was off); (3) Crackdown on edges and URs in the '06-'07 season (our women took a huge hit); (4) and the fact that the top US women who could catch your eye were Juniors and ineligible until halfway to Vancouver, but then were thrust into the spotlight along side Yu Na and the JPN women, inexperienced, nervous and wanting for technique. Drill down a bit on the Juniors and you see those who were steady were not that inspiring to watch (Flatt) and the best to watch were quite inconsistent (Nagasu). What luck! Footnote re Alissa Czisny who was one of the most nervous competitors I ever saw, but would win '09 Nationals with 3 triples (I think the tech was compared to Kerrigan's '93 Nationals performance).

It's been said, but the USFSA did a huge disservice to its women and US skating fans by not embracing the coming changes during the '00s. Perhaps, they got passive and were just thrilled to coast on the coattails of the legendary MK and to some extent Sasha. Kwan was on the podium every year from '96 - '04. But, they must have known it was going to end at some point
If the judges had cracked down on pre-rotation as hard as they cracked down on edges and under-rotations, things might have turned out very differently and they still might, if the judges start looking at (and deducting for) pre-rotation.
 

love skating

Clueless American
Messages
2,760
Regarding Kanon Smith... I can't think of another Smith it could be even though Smith is a common name. Which brings me to ask why they only list the last names on the assignments page? There are a lot of Chens and Browns for instance - is it that hard to add the first name for clarity? lol Anyway, I love Kanon and hope she is recovered from whatever befell her earlier this season!
 

Frau Muller

From Puerto Rico, via Russia - to the World!
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16,064
US Women lurched sideways after Torino due to a Perfect Storm of events: (1) Unofficial retirements of Kwan and Cohen; (2) Unusual implosions during the Vancouver quad of both ladies in waiting, Meissner and Hughes 2.0 (It appeared at 06 Worlds that Meissner had successfully grabbed the baton and was off); (3) Crackdown on edges and URs in the '06-'07 season (our women took a huge hit); (4) and the fact that the top US women who could catch your eye were Juniors and ineligible until halfway to Vancouver, but then were thrust into the spotlight along side Yu Na and the JPN women, inexperienced, nervous and wanting for technique. Drill down a bit on the Juniors and you see those who were steady were not that inspiring to watch (Flatt) and the best to watch were quite inconsistent (Nagasu). What luck! Footnote re Alissa Czisny who was one of the most nervous competitors I ever saw, but would win '09 Nationals with 3 triples (I think the tech was compared to Kerrigan's '93 Nationals performance).

It's been said, but the USFSA did a huge disservice to its women and US skating fans by not embracing the coming changes during the '00s. Perhaps, they got passive and were just thrilled to coast on the coattails of the legendary MK and to some extent Sasha. Kwan was on the podium every year from '96 - '04. But, they must have known it was going to end at some point
All of that + other countries got better…with more of them!

Later (now), we’re beginning to realize the amount of breakaway-USSR countries with blossoming skating programs. It’s also important to note the number of new skating federations, all with judges to back-up other ex-USSR/EasternEuro-orbit countries.

It wasn’t just the abilities of the skaters that changed but also the geopolitics.
 

becca

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20,891
You mean like Mishin did with Elizaveta Tuktymusheva? Yes...it's an approach that works!
I do think genetics plays some role but yes. You got to respect It I am glad to see Plushenko taking up the practice too.

The fact that Plushenko himself lasted as long as he did is a testament
 

DreamSkates

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Messages
2,810
As for correcting technique. The earlier a person learns poor technique and repeats it, the stronger the neural networks are being built in the brain and the more effort and reps it takes to learn better technique (build new neural networks) because the brain thinks it’s something new or in opposition to what is already there. Very difficult to change but not impossible.

As for 3/3 and Olys. I hope that we see both Mariah and Karen land one in each of their programs. I don’t understand why that’s missing or inconsistent given the number of years they’ve been skating and landing that in the past. Even with faulty technique, Karen has landed it. And it can’t be age. They certainly are capable, as top athletes.

???
 

AngieNikodinovLove

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7,648
Sooooooo where @bren hmmmmm brenda bottems is gone now?????

I haven’t received any of her chuckles or laughs lately. Was that a fake profile all this time or something?
 
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olympic

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10,321
All of that + other countries got better…with more of them!

Later (now), we’re beginning to realize the amount of breakaway-USSR countries with blossoming skating programs. It’s also important to note the number of new skating federations, all with judges to back-up other ex-USSR/EasternEuro-orbit countries.

It wasn’t just the abilities of the skaters that changed but also the geopolitics.
True. There were moments in history when US ladies were pretty wobbly [the late 80s cycle of Thomas, Trenary, Kadavy and Chin comes to mind] but the US still medaled at Worlds
 

carriecmu0503

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410
True. There were moments in history when US ladies were pretty wobbly [the late 80s cycle of Thomas, Trenary, Kadavy and Chin comes to mind] but the US still medaled at Worlds
I would hardly call Thomas or Trenary wobbly! They both WON worlds, and Thomas medaled at the Olympics. In 1986, Thomas won and Kadavy got the bronze. The US ladies either won the title or at least won a medal (or two) at every single world championships in the 80s. Most of the four ladies you mentioned won more than one medal at worlds. Hardly a wobbly time for US ladies skating!
 

olympic

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10,321
I would hardly call Thomas or Trenary wobbly! They both WON worlds, and Thomas medaled at the Olympics. In 1986, Thomas won and Kadavy got the bronze. The US ladies either won the title or at least won a medal (or two) at every single world championships in the 80s. Most of the four ladies you mentioned won more than one medal at worlds. Hardly a wobbly time for US ladies skating!
Well, that's my point. They won or were on Worlds podiums because competition wasn't as stiff then as it is now.

Don't get me wrong. I loved all 3, but they weren't steady competitors. I don't recall a completely clean LP from any of them at an important international competition.
 

carriecmu0503

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Messages
410
Well, that's my point. They won or were on Worlds podiums because competition wasn't as stiff then as it is now.

Don't get me wrong. I loved all 3, but they weren't steady competitors. I don't recall a completely clean LP from any of them at an important international competition.
Are you factoring in the enormous amount of time they all had to spend training figures? It was a totally different sport back then. They didn’t have a lot of time to practice jumps.
 

olympic

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10,321
^🤦‍♂️

No. That is not what I am saying. I am not 'sh-tting on the past' and CF are not relevant to my argument. My point is that US women may have always been shaky and the rest of the world has just improved a lot in recent years or in the case of RUS / JPN were more prepared for IJS. It's a point worth looking at.

Take a look at 2 distinct timeframes: Prior to IJS / ordinals period and Post IJS (I use those 2 timeframes because that is where the decline in relevance of US ladies is most prominent). In the prior timeframe, US women medalled regularly at Worlds / Olympics and post IJS - once.

Compare Yu Na, Mao, Miki, and later a big no. of RUS / JPN ladies to the women against whomever the US women were up against from 1981 - 2006. I would say that the former are much stronger. The only foreign world-beater women in the stratosphere of the last 15 years of stars would be Witt and maybe Ito. An exception to 'shaky' would be KY, MK and Tara, whom the US was blessed to have in the 90s, and in MK's case, a longer period of time
 
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Maximillian

RIP TA
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4,866
^🤦‍♂️

No. That is not what I am saying. I am not 'sh-tting on the past' and CF are not relevant to my argument. My point is that US women may have always been shaky and the rest of the world has just improved a lot in recent years or in the case of RUS / JPN were more prepared for IJS. It's a point worth looking at.

Take a look at 2 distinct timeframes: Prior to IJS / ordinals period and Post IJS (I use those 2 timeframes because that is where the decline in relevance of US ladies is most prominent). In the prior timeframe, US women medalled regularly at Worlds / Olympics and post IJS - once.

Compare Yu Na, Mao, Miki, and later a big no. of RUS / JPN ladies to the women against whomever the US women were up against from 1981 - 2006. I would say that the former are much stronger. The only foreign world-beater women in the stratosphere of the last 15 years of stars would be Witt and maybe Ito. An exception to 'shaky' would be KY, MK and Tara, whom the US was blessed to have in the 90s, and in MK's case, a longer period of time.
As has been said, Trenary and Thomas are World Champions, Chin and Kadavy are World medalists. No U.S. lady save one on one occasion over the past 15 seasons has medaled at an Olympics or Worlds.

CF DO matter because that was the context in which those women competed. They won World and Olympcs medals under the competitive format as it was then. CF are another variable in the equation for those women and they won and/or medalled at World events under those criteria. Winning then, required, in part, a different skill set. So yes, CF DO matter, particularly to the argument you were trying to make which is comparing Trenary, Thomas, Chin and Kadavy to the current generation of U.S. ladies. They are not comparable. That group of women medaled and won under the established criteria of their time. The current generation does not.

Your argument about fields being more competitive since 2006 is sort of true...some times...fields go up and down arbitrarily from one quad to another and citing Miki Ando as some criteria for 'level of greatness' for an era, doesn't help your argument. And the comparison isn't apples to apples, either because, again: CF, which means that there were some excellent skaters at CF that needed to be contended with, as well as excellent free skaters. So yes, I would contend that you are making broad generalizations about a particular set of women skaters from the past (Trenary, Thomas, Kadavy and Chin) without acknowledging the particular era in which they skated and the particular set of competitive criteria under which they competed, which are not the same as the U.S. women of today are competing against.
 

carriecmu0503

Well-Known Member
Messages
410
^🤦‍♂️

No. That is not what I am saying. I am not 'sh-tting on the past' and CF are not relevant to my argument. My point is that US women may have always been shaky and the rest of the world has just improved a lot in recent years or in the case of RUS / JPN were more prepared for IJS. It's a point worth looking at.

Take a look at 2 distinct timeframes: Prior to IJS / ordinals period and Post IJS (I use those 2 timeframes because that is where the decline in relevance of US ladies is most prominent). In the prior timeframe, US women medalled regularly at Worlds / Olympics and post IJS - once.

Compare Yu Na, Mao, Miki, and later a big no. of RUS / JPN ladies to the women against whomever the US women were up against from 1981 - 2006. I would say that the former are much stronger. The only foreign world-beater women in the stratosphere of the last 15 years of stars would be Witt and maybe Ito. An exception to 'shaky' would be KY, MK and Tara, whom the US was blessed to have in the 90s, and in MK's case, a longer period of time
You ARE joking right, about CF "not being relevant" to your argument? Your argument was those 4 ladies rarely had clean long programs. Let me say this for you again: In that era, the VAST majority of a skater's time was spent training CFs! The competition was very stiff in that era, in the sport it was at the time. Again, the sport is VERY different now without CF, which free the skaters up to train jumps much more than they ever did in the past, and you sound utterly ridiculous for calling the US ladies "wobbly" in a decade in which they won a world medal every single year, had multiple ladies win the title (Fratianne, Zayak, Sumners, Thomas, and Trenary- 1990, the last year of CF), and multiple years in which the ladies won TWO world medals!
 

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