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Coco

Rotating while Russian!
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17,622
Hanna has been through so much since her pewter medal in 2019. The foot injury that caused her to miss a year, perhaps coming back too soon and having a rough Nationals last year. Sometimes just competing is a victory. It was impressive to see her keep the program going after the fall on her 3rd jumping pass.
 
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clairecloutier

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13,094
I was thinking about the triple/triple issue for U.S. women.

If you leave out the Russian women, what other women skaters in the world are regularly landing fully ratified 3/3s?

By "regularly," I mean that they hit maybe 50% of competitive attempts without URs, DGs, etc.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
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38,127
I was thinking about the triple/triple issue for U.S. women.

If you leave out the Russian women, what other women skaters in the world are regularly landing fully ratified 3/3s?

By "regularly," I mean that they hit maybe 50% of competitive attempts without URs, DGs, etc.
Good point. Kaori and Young You and Leona possibly? I remember Wakaba gets UR calls from time to time. Does she get hammered sometimes? And other times they’re good like when she won her world medal?
 

missing

Well-Known To Whom She Wonders
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4,882
I was thinking about the triple/triple issue for U.S. women.

If you leave out the Russian women, what other women skaters in the world are regularly landing fully ratified 3/3s?

By "regularly," I mean that they hit maybe 50% of competitive attempts without URs, DGs, etc.
For me, it wasn't just the lack of triple/triples. Did any of the junior or senior women land either a triple axle or a quad? I know very few even attempted one.
 

VGThuy

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38,127
For me, it wasn't just the lack of triple/triples. Did any of the junior or senior women land either a triple axle or a quad? I know very few even attempted one.
Well Karen and Mariah are more last Olympic cycle skaters who aren’t going to be the ones who would be adding a quad or a triple axel. We haven’t had current seniors going for it other than Thorngren and Liu while Young You and the Russians are going for it. It’s still kind of new territory for the rest of the ladies field, and not just in the US.
 

missing

Well-Known To Whom She Wonders
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Well Karen and Mariah are more last Olympic cycle skaters who aren’t going to be the ones who would be adding a quad or a triple axel. We haven’t had current seniors going for it other than Thorngren and Liu while Young You and the Russians are going for it. It’s still kind of new territory for the rest of the ladies field, and not just in the US.
The Japanese women are also trying triple axels.
 

VGThuy

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The Japanese women are also trying triple axels.
Wakaba is but she’s also prone to URs except on really good days for her. Kaori isn’t. There are some others but they’ve come on the scene as seniors during this cycle. At Japanese nationals, both Kaori and Wakaba landed six triples same as Mariah while Karen went for 7.

The US is behind and honestly need to maximize their GOE with lesser jumps that are of high quality and fully rotated. It doesn’t serve them well to go after 3/3s that may not garner then the same GOE because unfortunately that’s where we’re at. IJS rewards higher quality elements. You go after harder content when you can actually rotate them and rotate them well. Rewarding attempts just because you attempted it despite quality is how we ended up with a mess of young skaters with promising triples and 3/3s only to get beaten up by international callers and garner reputations where they are more scrutinized that other skaters who don’t have such reputations. And then their confidence gets hit and so on and so forth. US coaching really needs to address the deficit in teaching proper jump technique and skating skills…they needed to do that for over ten years now. I think that’s why people went crazy over Gracie because she had those proper jumps that were huge and the ice coverage and speed to compete internationally.
 
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Karen-W

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Wow, little talk of the skaters. Happy for Mariah. How wrong we can be. In the fall many assumed Mariah was done. Couldn't get her 3-3 tack. Many single 3's were looking wonky. With her "advanced" age it was likely she wouldn't get to the Olys.

Yes it's a crazy year but still great to see her get the title. I'm guessing her 3-3 will be back in the long by Bejing. I tink Alysa will get the 3rd spot. And, they'll split the team event. But, not sure how. Maybe Mariah for short and Karen for long?
They aren't splitting the women. The Selection Criteria document goes over this and it's been discussed in at least 3 other threads in GSD, the Trash Can, and KnC, but essentially, the International Committee ranks the disciplines by strength/medal contention and the top-ranked skater in the #1 discipline gets first right of refusal to skate in one segment or both, then rinse & repeat with the #2 discipline and so on until 2 disciplines are split.

It's very clear that the disciplines will be ranked #1 Men, #2 Dance and both Nathan and Chock/Bates have said they want to do the TE. While Nathan hasn't said he wants to split it that's what he did in 2018 and given the Men's event starts right after the TE ends, it is pretty safe to assume he won't do both segments, so that's 1 discipline for sure split. Chock/Bates have gone so far as to state they want to split it with HubDon and while we don't know for sure if HubDon feel the same (they've sort of indicated they do but haven't explicitly stated this), the expectation is that the USFS will split dance since both teams are strong medal contenders. If this happens, then the pairs and women won't be split. And, frankly, there is zero reason to split women instead of dance.
 

Louis

Private citizen
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Wow, little talk of the skaters. Happy for Mariah. How wrong we can be. In the fall many assumed Mariah was done. Couldn't get her 3-3 tack. Many single 3's were looking wonky.

I think all of that is still true, it's just that others are even more done :shuffle:.

The silver lining is Levito put out the most interesting performance in US ladies skating in 15+ years, probably since IJS. She has a star quality we haven't seen since Sasha Cohen. I can't get her performance out of my head. Finally a bright spot after a decade of pedestrian, forgettable skating.
 

SkateFanBerlin

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I know a little about classical music and competitions. In a piano competition you choose things that you can reliably perform - rarely a missed note. You would not program a piece that you can't pull off.

Sport/ice skating is different. The bar is always being raised and you are called on to do things you can only do on your best days. I'm sure Mariah was sweating bullets over that 3-3 in the short. Even Trusova has pops/falls in the short 1/2 the time.
 

SkateFanBerlin

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They aren't splitting the women. The Selection Criteria document goes over this and it's been discussed in at least 3 other threads in GSD, the Trash Can, and KnC, but essentially, the International Committee ranks the disciplines by strength/medal contention and the top-ranked skater in the #1 discipline gets first right of refusal to skate in one segment or both, then rinse & repeat with the #2 discipline and so on until 2 disciplines are split.

It's very clear that the disciplines will be ranked #1 Men, #2 Dance and both Nathan and Chock/Bates have said they want to do the TE. While Nathan hasn't said he wants to split it that's what he did in 2018 and given the Men's event starts right after the TE ends, it is pretty safe to assume he won't do both segments, so that's 1 discipline for sure split. Chock/Bates have gone so far as to state they want to split it with HubDon and while we don't know for sure if HubDon feel the same (they've sort of indicated they do but haven't explicitly stated this), the expectation is that the USFS will split dance since both teams are strong medal contenders. If this happens, then the pairs and women won't be split. And, frankly, there is zero reason to split women instead of danc
don't know how to back out of a reply.
 

VGThuy

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I know a little about classical music and competitions. In a piano competition you choose things that you can reliably perform - rarely a missed note. You would not program a piece that you can't pull off.

Sport/ice skating is different. The bar is always being raised and you are called on to do things you can only do on your best days. I'm sure Mariah was sweating bullets over that 3-3 in the short. Even Trusova has pops/falls in the short 1/2 the time.
That’s true. See Trusova’s 2021 Worlds short.
 

Dai's Blues for Klook

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434
Maybe I'm just over skating, but I think it's okay if the US can't produce more amazing women figure skaters. Like you lay claim to Michelle Kwan. The programs are never going to be as good as they once were unless they jettison the entire current CoP and start drafting it from scratch anyway, so it barely matters who does or doesn't have 3+3s with the nonsense they'll be forced to skate. So if you ever feel bad, just watch Kwan's best.
 

SidelineSkater

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It’s also about playing the game. You are right - that's why Mariah and Karen played safe without attempting 3/3s in the LP last night.

Didn't Grace always have trouble with her edge call on the Flip? Just like most ladies, no one truly has a full set of proper edge/takeoff triples. I think that flip was a big question mark and she'd sometimes attempt it in the short as her solo jump, but get dinged on it...then in the LP she would double it or pop? I was so happy she landed the combo in the short - flashes of old Gracie.

I think the biggest frustration for US ladies fans is that we had Mirai going for the 3A in both programs most of the 17-18 season. During that quad, we knew the Russians were doing two 3/3 combos and backloading. We've seen Bradie get injured going for tougher jumps, while we've not seen even clean 3/3's consistently from others this quad.

Wakaba - yes isn't a beacon of consistency - but she's going for the 3/3 combos and 3A. Didn't she nail the 3A at Japanese Nats? So her set of landing 6 triples is a bit different than comparing to the triples attempted by Mariah and Karen.

I also wish Karen would move her last jumping pass earlier and not make it a combo. All season long, she's struggled with rotating that 2nd loop. If we're talking about playing the game to maximize points - move it up so she's not as tired at the very end.

This quad Mariah has had most of her harder jumps in the 2nd half, so at least she's trying to maximize that, by putting both 3Zs and the second Flip back there.
Wakaba is but she’s also prone to URs except on really good days for her. Kaori isn’t. There are some others but they’ve come on the scene as seniors during this cycle. At Japanese nationals, both Kaori and Wakaba landed six triples same as Mariah while Karen went for 7.

The US is behind and honestly need to maximize their GOE with lesser jumps that are of high quality and fully rotated. It doesn’t serve them well to go after 3/3s that may not garner then the same GOE because unfortunately that’s where we’re at. IJS rewards higher quality elements. You go after harder content when you can actually rotate them and rotate them well. Rewarding attempts just because you attempted it despite quality is how we ended up with a mess of young skaters with promising triples and 3/3s only to get beaten up by international callers and garner reputations where they are more scrutinized that other skaters who don’t have such reputations. And then their confidence gets hit and so on and so forth. US coaching really needs to address the deficit in teaching proper jump technique and skating skills…they needed to do that for over ten years now. I think that’s why people went crazy over Gracie because she had those proper jumps that were huge and the ice coverage and speed to compete internationally.
 

layman

Well-Known Member
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430
I think all of that is still true, it's just that others are even more done :shuffle:.

The silver lining is Levito put out the most interesting performance in US ladies skating in 15+ years, probably since IJS. She has a star quality we haven't seen since Sasha Cohen. I can't get her performance out of my head. Finally a bright spot after a decade of pedestrian, forgettable skating.
I don't know...Levito's triples are so Julia Lipnitskaya...will she even have triples by the time she is senior age-eligible? The shelf life for this type of technique (as we have seen) is very brief. If she grows any...well, we all know how it goes.
 

soogar

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For me, it wasn't just the lack of triple/triples. Did any of the junior or senior women land either a triple axle or a quad? I know very few even attempted one.
If you look at Russian Nationals, outside of the very top girls. most of the kids are NOT doing triple axels, quads or 3-3s. That goes for the world as well. We only see a few girls who have them and that is in spite of a top notch comprehensive training system in Russia. I think that considering American skaters have to pay for everything and go to different places to get the dance and off ice training, they are very competitive. There were only 6 girls in front of Tuk at Russian nationals who had quads and triple axels. It's a real feat to have those jumps and those are top 5 skater material.
 

Willin

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2,367
It all comes down to a lack of good coaching. Tom Z and Tammy seem to be the go to coaches for so many skaters yet neither of them have what it takes to get these girls to the next level heck they can't even get their skaters to rotate their jumps. If US coaches don't get better this is the best we can do folks. Just look at some of the coaches for these ladies it's a far cry from the days of Frank Carrol or John Nicks. The talent is still there just look at the Olympics we dominate the Russians especially in the Summer Olympics if these skaters get the best coaches resources etc etc they can be as good as anyone in the world.
The worst part is how USFS quashes coaches like Kori Ade who obviously produce good skaters with good foundations (Her skaters tend not to be consistent in competition, but you can't argue with how good their technique is) and encourages skaters to leave good local coaches for USFS favs like Tom Z and Tammy. Karen obviously had very good fundamentals, but what has Tammy brought? Mirai had a very solid foundation - and while the focus/routine from Tom Z helped her jumps with the 3A her artistry got worse. Bradie was amazing pre-Tom Z, and all Tom Z's seemed to do is packaging changes (though hasn't that been her choreographer, not Tom?). I just don't get it.

If USFS was so focused on developing skaters, they would also focus on creating more elite coaches instead of just relying on a small handful of coaches that aren't up to the task.

I think all of that is still true, it's just that others are even more done :shuffle:.

The silver lining is Levito put out the most interesting performance in US ladies skating in 15+ years, probably since IJS. She has a star quality we haven't seen since Sasha Cohen. I can't get her performance out of my head. Finally a bright spot after a decade of pedestrian, forgettable skating.
My concern about Levito is her jump technique. It doesn't seem built to last...
 

Frau Muller

From Puerto Rico…With Love!
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17,081
Since someone asked, above:
A number of Central Euro/ex-USSR-orbit skaters going to the Olys have 3-3 combos…not just Russians, Japanese & Koreans. Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Azerbaijan…there’ll be several at the Olympics.
 

museksk8r

Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy
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Wakaba is but she’s also prone to URs except on really good days for her. Kaori isn’t. There are some others but they’ve come on the scene as seniors during this cycle. At Japanese nationals, both Kaori and Wakaba landed six triples same as Mariah while Karen went for 7.
Kaori landed 7 clean triples to win Nationals. Her layout was:
2 Axel
3 Lutz
3 flip + 2toe
3 Salchow
x3 flip + 3toe
x2 Axel + 3 toe + 2toe
x3 loop
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
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38,127
Kaori landed 7 clean triples to win Nationals. Her layout was:
2 Axel
3 Lutz
3 flip + 2toe
3 Salchow
x3 flip + 3toe
x2 Axel + 3 toe + 2toe
x3 loop
Ah thank you for the correction. I was going by memory and for some reason I remembered 6 triples.
 

Vagabond

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If you look at Russian Nationals, outside of the very top girls. most of the kids are NOT doing triple axels, quads or 3-3s.
If you look at the protocols for Russian Nationals, you will see that every single one of them did a 3+3 in the SP and that all except for one of them did either a lutz or a flip combination. You will also see that all of them except Tutkamyshheva and Samodurova did either a 4+3, 4+2, 4+1+3, 3+3, or a 3+1+3 in the FS.


👓
 

Trillian

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383
My concern about Levito is her jump technique. It doesn't seem built to last...

I agree. I don’t think it’s a lost cause, but it does need to be a focus for improvement ASAP or it’s hard to imagine her keeping the jumps after a growth spurt. A handful of other young American girls have had innate star quality in the last fifteen years, she’s just the first “baby ballerina” throwback we’ve seen skate that well in a while. I’m personally glad we’re not trying to force every talented 14-year-old into that mold anymore. That said, she pulls that style off beautifully and the star quality is real. I hope she can continue to improve over the next few years.
 

Allskate

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11,393
With all that the athletes have had to endure this season, sad to see so many w/d. And, agree with the statement above that this is probably my least favorite US Nationals in over two decades. We also were wondering when we might see the US ladies comeback to a jump technical level where they can compete for podium positions internationally....did not see evidence of that last night :-(

For me, it wasn't just the lack of triple/triples. Did any of the junior or senior women land either a triple axle or a quad? I know very few even attempted one.
When was the last Nationals where you saw more than a couple of women even attempting a triple axel or quad? And what had you seen this season that would have led you to think that this year would include such jumps? It's not the American women that are different. It's the Russian women who are different, and we've known that for some time. I can't imagine that anyone following what has been happening would have expected a bunch of quads and triple axels from the American women. And we're always wondering who is actually going to be able to land triple/triple triples, especially triple/triples that are not made up of just triple toes.

Although I am disappointed that there have been a few withdrawals, that's often the case for some reason or another. I was thrilled to see Mariah skate so well and see her reaction to almost certainly making the Olympic team, to see Karen Chen's beautiful long program, and to enjoy the gorgeous launching of Isabeau's senior career. (I am pretty sure I am going to love watching her for years to come even if she never gets a triple axel or quad.) I also loved the RD from Chock and Bates. I'm still looking forward to seeing the American men compete. Every year people complain and say that there has been a splatfest or disappointment. So, this year doesn't seem much different in that regard. And we're only halfway through.
 

Karen-W

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Well, now... This is interesting... Bavarian Open has their Preliminary Entries lists up and the USA has TBD entries in Senior Men (1), Senior Women (1), Junior Men (1), Junior Women (2), Advanced Novice Boys (1), Advanced Novice Girls (2), Junior Ice Dance (3), and Advanced Novice Ice Dance (1).


So, maybe they send Kate Wang to this to get her Senior TES mins?
 

wickedwitch

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15,884
Well, now... This is interesting... Bavarian Open has their Preliminary Entries lists up and the USA has TBD entries in Senior Men (1), Senior Women (1), Junior Men (1), Junior Women (2), Advanced Novice Boys (1), Advanced Novice Girls (2), Junior Ice Dance (3), and Advanced Novice Ice Dance (1).


So, maybe they send Kate Wang to this to get her Senior TES mins?
I think they would want as many skaters as possible with minimum just in case of a Cov1d disaster. (Although, there also might be an issue that athletes have to be monitored pre-Olys for drugs, and presumably Kate hasn't been monitored.)
 

olympic

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10,486
I watched the women last night with many mixed emotions

The Good - Music and costuming (for the most part); Mariah Bell winning a title AND going to the Olympics; Karen Chen doing 7 triples, 2 lutes in the back half, and getting a UR on only 1 triple (?); Isabeau Levito. She is Sasha returned and upgraded with better edges; Gaby Izzo's new on-ice persona and packaging makes her much more watchable; Gracie's SP; Hannah Harrell's return and special nod to her for not just trying to get through the jumps and get a good placement at Nationals, but adding Eteri-like features to get the score (all US ladies really need to take note - longterm thinking); Audrey Shin and Starr Andrews for gutting thru; The lift on the MD girl's jumps (forgot her name) shows a lot of future potential

The Bad - No 3-3's or 3As among the top skaters except from an age-ineligible Jr., which should be a cause for concern among fans and the USFSA. RUS, JPN, KOR, Louna Hendrickx, and maybe an improved Maddie Schizas will eat our lunch in Beijing. Those programs will struggle to be in the top 10 at an Olympic Games; Gracie and Lindsey Thorngren's LPs; Audrey Shin's URs; Gaby Izzo's pops.

The Ugly - YKW taking out competitors and hanging as a threat over everything; Bradie's foot injury. Her absence was felt by me; Alysa Liu and Amber Glenn's absence. Horrible that Amber had to finish the Olympic season like this.
 

Karen-W

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I think they would want as many skaters as possible with minimum just in case of a Cov1d disaster. (Although, there also might be an issue that athletes have to be monitored pre-Olys for drugs, and presumably Kate hasn't been monitored.)
Well, I'm going off the entries list which shows the USFS intends on sending 1 senior woman, 2 junior women and 2 advanced novice girls to compete. @Sylvia would have a better idea which of the women competing in the junior women at Nats are age-eligible for juniors internationally. I think that Elyce Lin-Gracey was the highest ranked novice lady, so she seems like an obvious choice for one of the advanced novice girls spots.
 

Frau Muller

From Puerto Rico…With Love!
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17,081
I watched the women last night with many mixed emotions

The Good - Music and costuming (for the most part); Mariah Bell winning a title AND going to the Olympics; Karen Chen doing 7 triples, 2 lutes in the back half, and getting a UR on only 1 triple (?); Isabeau Levito. She is Sasha returned and upgraded with better edges; Gaby Izzo's new on-ice persona and packaging makes her much more watchable; Gracie's SP; Hannah Harrell's return and special nod to her for not just trying to get through the jumps and get a good placement at Nationals, but adding Eteri-like features to get the score (all US ladies really need to take note - longterm thinking); Audrey Shin and Starr Andrews for gutting thru; The lift on the MD girl's jumps (forgot her name) shows a lot of future potential

The Bad - No 3-3's or 3As among the top skaters except from an age-ineligible Jr., which should be a cause for concern among fans and the USFSA. RUS, JPN, KOR, Louna Hendrickx, and maybe an improved Maddie Schizas will eat our lunch in Beijing. Those programs will struggle to be in the top 10 at an Olympic Games; Gracie and Lindsey Thorngren's LPs; Audrey Shin's URs; Gaby Izzo's pops.

The Ugly - YKW taking out competitors and hanging as a threat over everything; Bradie's foot injury. Her absence was felt by me; Alysa Liu and Amber Glenn's absence. Horrible that Amber had to finish the Olympic season like this.

I’d add Sierra Venetta’s artistic style/beauty as another highlight. Points schmoints!!
 
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