U.S. Women [#1]: The Contenders Unmask Themselves

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melanieg

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Is Mia the first US Woman to land a clean quad in international competition? Woohoo!!!
Mia is the first US woman to land a clean quad toe in international competition. She was also the first to land a clean quad toe domestically.

Mia is the second US woman to land a clean quad, period, both internationally and domestically (Alysa being the first, with 4Lz). :)
 

Karen-W

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I find it interesting how Mia can get clean quads but her triples are a carrot fest. To succeed in the future she'll either have to lean in to the quads hard or she'll have to clean up those triples.
Well, she has a clean quad toe. Who knows what her quad sal or lutz look like? The odd thing was the 4t-2t was beautiful but the solo 4t had issues. In general, she needs to not only clean up her rotations on her triples but she needs a lot more speed and power than she currently has. Watching Muravieva skate a couple of skaters before her and then Zhilina right after her in the SP made her deficiencies as a skater very clear and obvious.
 

melanieg

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Well, she has a clean quad toe. Who knows what her quad sal or lutz look like? The odd thing was the 4t-2t was beautiful but the solo 4t had issues. In general, she needs to not only clean up her rotations on her triples but she needs a lot more speed and power than she currently has. Watching Muravieva skate a couple of skaters before her and then Zhilina right after her in the SP made her deficiencies as a skater very clear and obvious.
I think it’s important to remember that Mia seems to be the only one seriously chasing ultra c elements at this time (obviously trying to incorporate them into competition reality right now and presumably so they’ll last into the future, while avoiding injuries). Does anyone really know what that requires as someone training in the US (ie, not in an Eteri or Plushenko camp where everything including sk skills, choreo, dance, physiotherapy etc. is all integrated?). Really think about that for a second. Now think about the mastery of a quad for a moment and what it takes. The repetition involved to get your body to do the same thing consistently every time to maximize your result. Can you really expect consistency after a half a year of work on it, plus refinement of all the triples, better spins, and skating? And developing the stamina for it, and the experience (mental) competing internationally?

I wouldn’t expect perfection overnight with this one, but the approach does seem worth cheering on.
 

Karen-W

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Mia needs more than speed and power: she needs to develop presentation skills, which are dismal. She received mostly 5s in PCS, while Ava Ziegler got 7s. I enjoyed Ava's FS much more than I did Mia's. Figure skating is more than just jumps.
PCS isn't just about presentation skills, though I would agree, Mia needs to work on that too. I didn't find her presentation to be extraordinarily bad compared to the Kosice field - though she wasn't killing it with star power the way, say, Vivien Papp of Hungary was, but, she wasn't any less wooden than, say, Adeliia Petrosian of Russia. Program Component Score very much does include power and speed - those are part of skating skills which is one of the PCS categories.
 

wickedwitch

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I think it’s important to remember that Mia seems to be the only one seriously chasing ultra c elements at this time (obviously trying to incorporate them into competition reality right now and presumably so they’ll last into the future, while avoiding injuries). Does anyone really know what that requires as someone training in the US (ie, not in an Eteri or Plushenko camp where everything including sk skills, choreo, dance, physiotherapy etc. is all integrated?). Really think about that for a second. Now think about the mastery of a quad for a moment and what it takes. The repetition involved to get your body to do the same thing consistently every time to maximize your result. Can you really expect consistency after a half a year of work on it, plus refinement of all the triples, better spins, and skating? And developing the stamina for it, and the experience (mental) competing internationally?

I wouldn’t expect perfection overnight with this one, but the approach does seem worth cheering on.
Only one of whom? Several girls in the US are training 3As or quads, not to mention Alysa, who has landed them. It's certainly possible to work on those elements and not treat literally everything else as an afterthought.
 

Willin

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@melanieg @wickedwitch I was going to say... Still not sure what an Ultra-C is or who coined it (frankly, as someone who skates this an instant "I've never stepped foot on the ice" term), but I know it includes quads - or is it only ladies' quads? Does it count for male skaters too? Is a 3A "Ultra-C"? Idk.

But there are plenty of US ladies working on 3A's and quads who are more of a total package than Mia: Alysa has quads and a 3A (and trains at the same rink as Mia - so it's not like you say that Mia doesn't have the resources), Lindsay Thorngren and Isabeau Levito are working on quads (as are several other US Junior Ladies), Amber has a 3A, Starr has landed a 3A in the past, Bradie is training a 3A (possibly quads?), and we've seen clips of Gracie working on quads.
And this has been going on for decades in the US. Mirai/Kimmie/Tonya all landed 3As in competition. It's not like Mia is the first or only one in the US trying this stuff. She's not even the first to get it to competition.
 

Frau Muller

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.... but, she wasn't any less wooden than, say, Adeliia Petrosian of Russia. ...are part of skating skills which is one of the PCS categories.
Sorry, I disagree. Petrosian is a lively skater..look again at her facial expressions! Not as vivacious as Vivien Papp - Who is? - but quite expressive.
 

Karen-W

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Sorry, I disagree. Petrosian is a lively skater..look again at her facial expressions! Not as vivacious as Vivien Papp - Who is? - but quite expressive.
Of the four Russian ladies in Kosice, Petrosian was the "least" expressive to me. YMMV.
 

Frau Muller

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Of the four Russian ladies in Kosice, Petrosian was the "least" expressive to me. YMMV.
Are we talking about the same skater?...Petrosian is the one with the black hair, big expressive eyes...”Southern” features, like Medvedeva. Petrosian even flirted with the judges...playful expression in time to music.
 

melanieg

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@melanieg @wickedwitch I was going to say... Still not sure what an Ultra-C is or who coined it (frankly, as someone who skates this an instant "I've never stepped foot on the ice" term), but I know it includes quads - or is it only ladies' quads? Does it count for male skaters too? Is a 3A "Ultra-C"? Idk.

But there are plenty of US ladies working on 3A's and quads who are more of a total package than Mia: Alysa has quads and a 3A (and trains at the same rink as Mia - so it's not like you say that Mia doesn't have the resources), Lindsay Thorngren and Isabeau Levito are working on quads (as are several other US Junior Ladies), Amber has a 3A, Starr has landed a 3A in the past, Bradie is training a 3A (possibly quads?), and we've seen clips of Gracie working on quads.
And this has been going on for decades in the US. Mirai/Kimmie/Tonya all landed 3As in competition. It's not like Mia is the first or only one in the US trying this stuff. She's not even the first to get it to competition.

I meant “seriously chasing” as consistently competing those elements. And the point (which seems to have been missed) is that to do so takes an extraordinary amount of focus and time day to day — likely pushing other work aside given the training resources and situations most American skaters are in, and that it’s hard to imagine a 13yo mastering quads AND top skating skills and performance quality all at once, leading to drastic unevenness of skills during development.

Doesn’t that make sense?
 

Willin

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@melanieg It makes sense on a surface level, because it is tough to develop those skills, but it makes 0 sense when you look at it deeper.

1. This is NOT unique to US skaters including. The Russian teen ladies doing quads are hardly the whole package either. In fact, even Eteri's Seniors are often maligned for their bad choreography and poor skating skills.

2. This is NOT new to this era of quads in ladies skating. Ever heard the term "Junior-ish"? It's a term that's been used for decades to describe the lack of skating skills and artistic ability Juniors have that will develop in their Senior career. And it's not just used to describe US Juniors, but rather Juniors in general, world wide.

3. It's not related to time, resources, or training environment. It's linked to the progression of how things are traditionally learned and valued. It's expected skaters on the Junior circuit will develop jumps first and then grow into artistry and skating skills later. So while Juniors those resources are split more towards learning tech content. Then as they master the jumps and (for the most part) max out their tech potential in Juniors/teen Senior seasons they start to shift to a larger portion of their training being artistry oriented. Completely normal.
 

melanieg

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@melanieg It makes sense on a surface level, because it is tough to develop those skills, but it makes 0 sense when you look at it deeper.

1. This is NOT unique to US skaters including. The Russian teen ladies doing quads are hardly the whole package either. In fact, even Eteri's Seniors are often maligned for their bad choreography and poor skating skills.

2. This is NOT new to this era of quads in ladies skating. Ever heard the term "Junior-ish"? It's a term that's been used for decades to describe the lack of skating skills and artistic ability Juniors have that will develop in their Senior career. And it's not just used to describe US Juniors, but rather Juniors in general, world wide.

3. It's not related to time, resources, or training environment. It's linked to the progression of how things are traditionally learned and valued. It's expected skaters on the Junior circuit will develop jumps first and then grow into artistry and skating skills later. So while Juniors those resources are split more towards learning tech content. Then as they master the jumps and (for the most part) max out their tech potential in Juniors/teen Senior seasons they start to shift to a larger portion of their training being artistry oriented. Completely normal.
It kind of seems like we’re beating the same horse on 1 and 2… but on 3 I think it’s naive to think that environment and resources don’t make a difference when it comes to the pace and balance of a skater’s development. It’s the very reason USFS has tried to build training centers (broadmoor, Boston) that have integrated resources (with high level coaching, facilities, etc.).
 

Willin

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@melanieg And you're saying that Oakland - literally where USFS poached their skater development guy (who is developing these programs) from - is not a good training center with a lot of resources at hand? If so, you truly have no idea how skating and training in the US works. Just because it's not in one place doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't good. Collaboration across clubs and rinks is what created many a US Champion including those from the Bay like Kristi Yamaguchi, Rudy Galindo, Vincent Zhou, Brian Boitano, and more.
 

Lemonade20

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Mia is the first US woman to land a clean quad toe in international competition. She was also the first to land a clean quad toe domestically.

Mia is the second US woman to land a clean quad, period, both internationally and domestically (Alysa being the first, with 4Lz). :)
Thank you!!
 

AxelAnnie

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Does anyone besides me (and I will admit my mind is a very scary place) think that there will not be an Olympics for the current crop (Tinnell, Chen, et al)?

And if they do hold something call The Olympics, how can they possibly annotate the results? Where is Uncle Dick when you need him?

There are skaters who have been sick, trainers who have been sick, facilities that have been closed, and on and on. Cases of ********* 19 continue to rise in the US., and the MU version is on the way.

Add to that, the skills required to win are brutal on the body.

One thing for sure....................Journalists have to be prohibited from asking "How do you feel about the (fill in the blank), that had to be put in place because of *********.
 

Karen-W

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Does anyone besides me (and I will admit my mind is a very scary place) think that there will not be an Olympics for the current crop (Tinnell, Chen, et al)?

And if they do hold something call The Olympics, how can they possibly annotate the results? Where is Uncle Dick when you need him?

There are skaters who have been sick, trainers who have been sick, facilities that have been closed, and on and on. Cases of ********* 19 continue to rise in the US., and the MU version is on the way.

Add to that, the skills required to win are brutal on the body.

One thing for sure....................Journalists have to be prohibited from asking "How do you feel about the (fill in the blank), that had to be put in place because of *********.
There will be a Winter Olympics in February. China nor the IOC are going to postpone for an extra year. And the results will be just as legitimate as the ones from the Tokyo Olympics last month. The skills to required to win in figure skating are no less brutal than many other sports, both summer and winter, and the challenges have been universal.

Why should journalists be prohibited from asking any competition bubbles or restrictions implemented due to C19? Are you seriously suggesting that the freedom of the press and freedom of speech in general, two fundamentals of democracy, be prohibited?
 

AxelAnnie

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Are you seriously suggesting that the freedom of the press and freedom of speech in general, two fundamentals of democracy, be prohibited?
Of course not. Have you met me? I just think it would be repetitive and boring.

I would just prefer to hear about something else from these very special athletes rather than how they dealt with, did they have, anybody die?

I want to hear about their programs. How they got them, how they decided on them, how did they feel about the skate...............you know, normal skating stuff.

Signed Happy Daughter of The American Republic (no joke). Family name Jefferson (no joke)
 

layman

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The concerns raised in reference to Mia Kalin (and really to all the American women) can come across as a lot of hand-wringing but I think they are legitimate.

Even with all the quads she attempted, Mia was nowhere near the podium in Kosice. It is odd to see a young talent who can rotate quads but not triples. It's also concerning to see her get such low levels on her non-jump elements. Her current team seem to have the wrong priorities.

There is the sense (about the American women) that they are falling farther and farther behind the Russians. The US program has not been producing champions for at least 20 years. I think it's time for US Figure Skating to assess where they are going wrong in reference to developing their female figure skating talent.

I see needless politics and favoritism from the federation (one day you are in and the next day you are out...) instead of a focus on getting these young women whatever it is that they need to succeed.
 

Willin

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@layman It's definitely a problem with her specific team. Her club has a nationally renowned spin specialist that helped top US skaters before. Locally there's high level coaches like Massimo Scali and Kim Novarro with ice dance backgrounds to help with footwork. There's several jump technicians. What she needs isn't a centralized training center as one poster proposed, it's for her team to wake up and realize they need help. And, as much as I know her/Alysa's club is supportive, sometimes they're too supportive to give harsh but much needed advice.
 

alchemy void

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There is the sense (about the American women) that they are falling farther and farther behind the Russians. The US program has not been producing champions for at least 20 years. I think it's time for US Figure Skating to assess where they are going wrong in reference to developing their female figure skating talent.
This is such an odd comment to me. The American junior women are having their best season in quite some time? Levito and Thorngren are competitive with the Russians.

It is odd to see a young talent who can rotate quads but not triples.
Yes, but even someone like Trusova has this gigantic beautiful 4T and is just barely scraping by rotating some triples later on in the program.

I would think (and hope) Kalin's coaching team would look at her protocols here and get the message loud and clear. She is clearly very talented and has tons of potential, but the skating skills and program construction here were definitely in the lower half of the field at JGP Kosice. She scored 47 in PCS, but honestly, that seems rather generous, especially looking at some skaters she bested in PCS.
 
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melanieg

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@layman It's definitely a problem with her specific team. Her club has a nationally renowned spin specialist that helped top US skaters before. Locally there's high level coaches like Massimo Scali and Kim Novarro with ice dance backgrounds to help with footwork. There's several jump technicians. What she needs isn't a centralized training center as one poster proposed, it's for her team to wake up and realize they need help. And, as much as I know her/Alysa's club is supportive, sometimes they're too supportive to give harsh but much needed advice.
I get the sense that you have some sort of personal axe to grind with this skater or her team? I don’t know who you are or what your affiliation is with the club there, but your tone very clearly reflects some sort of negative sentiment.

I am simply a skating fan with an appreciation for all that these youngsters are doing to succeed in a sport that has evolved dramatically since the age of Kristy Y, Brian B. etc.

My original point was that for those who are trying earnestly to master quads and 3A in the here and now, in order to be truly competitive with the Russians element for element someday, there is likely to be un-evenness along the developmental path. That is all.

I’m exiting this conversation and this forum for now. I really get a kick out of all these skaters, each with their strengths and weaknesses, and believe they should all get a lot of support for their hard work. The vibe here has gotten a little sour for my taste.
 
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