The Technical Panel: Twizzles - Explaining the Levels

tony

But it just doesn't fcuking glide
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When Alla Shekhovtsova and the ISU ice dance technical committee did their meeting at 2018 Worlds explaining +5s, when it they showed examples of Twizzles that should "for sure" receive +5, they used Virtue/Moir (Moulin Rouge to be exact) and the Shibs (their Paradise FD if I remember correctly) as video examples. Of course, individual fans' may have their own ideas.
This may be true, but I am 100% sure that Poltorak and Selby did a long video in 2018 explaining the changes and they used V/M in Moulin Rouge to say that they were too far apart and should get a +3 because of that negative feature. I don't think they showed any +5 twizzles in that instance, but instead showed two choreographic lifts.
 

thvu

Usova's Apprentice
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This may be true, but I am 100% sure that Poltorak and Selby did a long video in 2018 explaining the changes and they used V/M in Moulin Rouge to say that they were too far apart and should get a +3 because of that negative feature. I don't think they showed any +5 twizzles in that instance, but instead showed two choreographic lifts.
You're right. I remember them using V&M as a max +3 because they were slightly too far apart.

 

VGThuy

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38,213
This may be true, but I am 100% sure that Poltorak and Selby did a long video in 2018 explaining the changes and they used V/M in Moulin Rouge to say that they were too far apart and should get a +3 because of that negative feature. I don't think they showed any +5 twizzles in that instance, but instead showed two choreographic lifts.
I just watched again and I was wrong about the Shibs program. It was their Latin SD, not their Paradise FD, they did say that for the Shibs deserved +5 "for sure".

Here's the original post I made with a time-stamped video:


This link is time-stamped with Virtue/Moir's Moulin Rouge twizzles where they counted at least 9 features where Virtue/Moir should have gotten +6-7 but the judging system is capped at +5.



The Shibs talk follows right after.
 

Andrea82

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This may be true, but I am 100% sure that Poltorak and Selby did a long video in 2018 explaining the changes and they used V/M in Moulin Rouge to say that they were too far apart and should get a +3 because of that negative feature. I don't think they showed any +5 twizzles in that instance, but instead showed two choreographic lifts.


Both of you remembered correctly

Poltorak/Selby give a +3 to V/M's Pyengchang twizzles at around 25m10 mark. They were too far apart (negative feature), so max is +3.

The meeting on new rules by the technical committe after Milan Worlds is here. At 1:15:20 AllaS shows V/M and asks the audiences (mainly coaches) how many features were hit. They didn't highlight the negative feature.
 

tony

But it just doesn't fcuking glide
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This link is time-stamped with Virtue/Moir's Moulin Rouge twizzles where they counted at least 9 features where Virtue/Moir should have gotten +6-7 but the judging system is capped at +5.


The Shibs talk follows right after.
A +5 is capped with more than 8 positive features, doesn't matter how many more they have over that. 9 features (or +9 positive) would be the lowest standard for the +5. Some features are 'double' and worth 2 when figuring out a GOE so they add up quickly for those who are proficient.

Any element with even one negative feature means the highest GOE that can be given is +3. So a team could have everything exactly right except the distance is too far and get a +3 in the end.
 

VGThuy

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A +5 is capped with more than 8 positive features, doesn't matter how many more they have over that. 9 features (or +9 positive) would be the lowest standard for the +5. Some features are 'double' and worth 2 when figuring out a GOE so they add up quickly for those who are proficient.

Any element with even one negative feature means the highest GOE that can be given is +3. So a team could have everything exactly right except the distance is too far and get a +3 in the end.
I know +5 is the cap with more than 8, I didn't say otherwise - I was just quoting "the joke" they were saying in the video with the +6-7.

I also watched the video realized the original meeting video was where they highlighted V/M and the Shibs at twizzles that were +5, which was the original video I was talking about, was later contradicted by the video that @thvu posted - at least when it comes to V/M because the original meeting did not discuss the spacing negative feature they found in V/M's twizzles in the other video. Still, they seemed enthusiastic in the first video to highlight V/M's twizzles, at first.
 

VGThuy

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@tony @thvu or whomever knows ice dance, :lol:, can you guys help me visualize this feature:

free leg held out (i.e. extended or bent with an angle of 90 degrees or more between thigh and shin, to the front, to the side or to the back or combination of those) at 45 degrees or more from vertical;

I'm actually really confused by this wording. Does the free leg need to just be 45 degrees from the vertical? The mentioning of 90 degrees in the "clarification" parenthetical clause makes it confusing. Maybe I'm overthinking it because I remember it explained to me once that Weaver/Poje lost a level on their twizzles at one comp because their free legs weren't extended all the way but it seemed pretty well-extended to me.
 

thvu

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@VGThuy , if the free leg is straight, it needs to be at least 45 degrees from the vertical. The angle is between the two legs.

If the free leg is not straight, but bent, the thigh and shin must form a right angle (90 degrees) or more. This isn't as common, but to me it's very similar to a Yoga move I do, where I stand straight, bring up my knee so my thigh is parallel to the ground, and then move it to the side of my body, so that my standing leg and free leg thigh make a right angle when looking in a mirror. My shin would just need to be vertical, or extended out. If it bends inward at all, I wouldn't get the feature.

Basically, the rule is trying to prevent skaters from having an acute angle between the thigh and shin, as this is a much easier position to be in. I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but many teams take this option for the Group B feature.

Edit: Here's a poorly drawn example. :lol:
 
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VGThuy

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@VGThuy , if the free leg is straight, it needs to be at least 45 degrees from the vertical. The angle is between the two legs.

If the free leg is not straight, but bent, the thigh and shin must form a right angle (90 degrees) or more. This isn't as common, but to me it's very similar to a Yoga move I do, where I stand straight, bring up my knee so my thigh is parallel to the ground, and then move it to the side of my body, so that my standing leg and free leg thigh make a right angle when looking in a mirror. My shin would just need to be vertical, or extended out. If it bends inward at all, I wouldn't get the feature.

Basically, the rule is trying to prevent skaters from having an acute angle between the thigh and shin, as this is a much easier position to be in. I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but many teams take this option for the Group B feature.

Edit: Here's a poorly drawn example. :lol:
Thank you! And your description before the illustration was spot on because after seeing your illustration, that was exactly what I imagined with your explanation. But I totally appreciate the illustration as confirmation! I wonder if some skaters ever got in trouble for doing the 45 degree position with the leg extended but had their legs be seen as slightly bent or whatever and lost the feature that way.
 

morqet

rising like a phoenix
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Can't wait to see Part 2 for the Twizzles. Sometimes the mistake (balance check) is obvious but other times I've missed what caused the level for one of the skaters to drop on their twizzles.

If you can't see an obvious wobble, it's usually because they don't get into position for the variation - eg arms above the head - within the first 1/2 rotation.
 

cocotaffy

Fetchez la vache... mais fetchez la vache !
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Late to the party but thank you so much for these especially the key points, I can never spot anything and those graphics with steps are not helpful.
 

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