The Race for the 2020 POTUS elections

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ballettmaus

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I get what you're saying, but there's also the opposite situaton where Americans get criticized for not taking an interest in the broader world, not understanding where they (we) come from, abandoning the culture and traditions, etc.

I think a person is perfectly capable of understanding where they come from and taking an interest in the broader world without any DNA tests. I actually don't think that a DNA test tells one anything about who they are. It merely tells one their genetic make-up. And while the genetic make-up determines what we look like, it does not define the person that we are.


In other news, Castro has now qualified for the September debate. If one more candidate qualifies, there'll be two debates. (I'd have loved to see them all on one stage but on the other hand, I find the idea of smaller groups appealing as well.) https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/20/politics/julian-castro-qualifies-september-debates/index.html
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
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37,670
Nobody is getting my DNA! :mitchell:

I think these tests and even looking up documents on Ancestry.com can only go so far. One of my grandmothers was Slovak. She was very proud of that fact. However, my sister decided to work on our family tree and discovered the immigration papers from her relatives on Ancestry.com. They say her grandfather was Polish! My sister now insists that my grandmother was Polish. I say that they probably immigrated from Poland -- Slovakia was going through one of those periods in history when it didn't exist as a country at that time -- but if Grandma said she was Slovak, then she's Slovak. And, also, everyone involved is dead so it's not like we can ask her.

There are other cases where people take those tests and it says they are 0% of something that they clearly are part of. For example, if one parent has relatives documented to be from Italy and the other parent is documented to be from Brazel, one of their kids could get DNA results that say 0% Italian. This is because we get half our genes from each parent and the genes they inherit from their Italian parent might not be ones that are markers for Italian descent. If that happens to you, should you not think of yourself as Italian anymore even though you have met your Italian grandmother who still lives in Italy? That seems pretty silly to me.
 

Reuven

Official FSU Alte Kacher
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Frankly, this whole thing with Eliz. Warren is one of the stupidest non-issues I’ve ever seen. Anybody whose ancestry goes back a couple of centuries in the U.S. like mine has family stories about having First Nation ancestor(s). We have such a legend in my family. Is it true? Don’t know, haven’t done any tests to see.
Seriously, there are more important issues than this, like Trump shredding the Constitution, aided and abetted by the Republican Party.
 
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allezfred

#EpidemiologistsNotEconomists
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@MacMadame having researched my relatives from Elis Island records, part of my family members were labeled as Hungarian, Austrian, Serbian and Croatian. The butchering of their names is a separate issue. If your granny said she was Slovakian, she had strong reasons. I'd take her word over paperwork.

I was told that my maternal grandmother was Ukrainian, but I just googled her family name and it seems to most commonly found in Slovenia and Croatia. :wideeyes:

I guess that would explain my affinity with 1980s Yugoslav pop music though. :lol:
 

VGThuy

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My very Chinese husband from China did a DNA test once and he had like 1% Italian. Another Chinese friend of mine did hers and found a pretty big percentage of Southeast Asian/Filipino. When she asked her mom about it, her mom freaked out and ranted about why she wanted to dig into that stuff. It reminded me of people hiding their black ancestors in America or something.
 

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
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Just to be clear, I agree with you -- it is distasteful and disparaging, and I don't think anyone should be chanting "Pocahontas." My point was that Warren enabled this nonsense, and Trump continues it because it reflects worse on Warren than it does on him. I will give Warren some credit for apologizing (finally, in 2019), which is more than Trump had done. If she had apologized in 2012, not engaged in this silly fiasco with her DNA test "reveal," etc., this would all be a moot point.
Nobody "enables" Trump to hurl racial slurs, not Warren or anyone else. We experience it every minute of every hour of every day because this is who he is, and the buck needs to stop right there when he attacks with his heartless and soulless tirades. He happily spews the hatred with or without a specific target, and it's totally his choice. Suggesting any politician or POC causes him to do it or needs to prevent it (apologizing, walking on eggshells, etc.) just misdirects us from the person who is 100% responsible for his words and actions. Even after he leaves office, it will not be a moot point because his disastrous history will carry on to future generations.

My original post was not an endorsement of Warren and her DNA test has nothing to do with it. It's starting to sound like there is a turning of the tides because it sounds like a lot more of the types of voters he needs to cultivate have
also become dissatisfied with his tendencies to attack with Pocahontas and "Send them back". I hope there are enough of them who will pull the lever for ANYONE but Trump in 2020. Perhaps you really believe all of this reflects worse on Warren than it does on Trump, but I don't know a POC who has actually experienced such taunts throughout life who agrees with you.
 
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El Rey

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Moving to Texas as a young Mexican kid, it seemed like a majority of my very white friends claimed to be part Native American. I always wondered why the population didn’t look more “Mexican” then.

Likewise, I’ve met so many people I’d consider Mexican-American, who are clearly mestizo like the majority of Mexicans, claim their ancestors are all from Europe 🙄. Seems like a lot of people accept what their family tells them as fact.
 

clairecloutier

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Frankly, this whole thing with Eliz. Warren is one of the stupidest non-issues I’ve ever seen. Anybody whose ancestry goes back a couple of centuries in the U.S. like mine has family stories about having First Nation ancestor(s). We have such a legend in my family. Is it true? Don’t know, haven’t done any tests to see.
Seriously, there are more important issues than this, like Trump shredding the Constitution, aided and abetted by the Republican Party.

I was thinking the same thing. Let’s keep our eyes on the goal ....
 

Louis

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I think a person is perfectly capable of understanding where they come from and taking an interest in the broader world without any DNA tests.

:confused: :confused: A DNA test has nothing to do with this point, and I presume that the Americans who told Allezfred that they were Irish weren't doing so because of a DNA test. DNA test or not, Americans can choose whether or not to identify with their ancestral country(ies). People criticize Americans when they do identify with their ancestral countries, e.g., "I'm Irish," saying that there isn't a close enough association. People also criticize Americans when they don't identify with their ancestral countries, saying that they've abandoned culture, traditions, forgotten where they've come from. There isn't a view that seems to please everyone.

It's starting to sound like there is a turning of the tides because it sounds like a lot more of the types of voters he needs to cultivate have also become dissatisfied with his tendencies to attack with Pocahontas and "Send them back". I hope there are enough of them who will pull the lever for ANYONE but Trump in 2020. Perhaps you really believe all of this reflects worse on Warren than it does on Trump, but I don't know a POC who has actually experienced such taunts throughout life who agrees with you.

I think there is a big difference between "Pocahontas," which is wrong but making fun of someone who pretended to be a POC in an outrageous charade, and "send them back," which is a downright scary attack on (actual) POC with no basis in fact. Suggesting deportation of lawful US citizens for no reason other than political disagreement is the stuff of dictators and terrorists. While I disagree with them politically, Reps Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib have done nothing to warrant criticisms of their citizenship.

Elizabeth Warren needs to bear responsibility for her actions. If Trump wanted to call Warren "pretend Native American Elizabeth Warren" instead of "Pocahontas," I'd have no problem with it. The criticism has a basis in fact and is valid. For decades, she pretended to be something she is not, and she needs to bear responsibility for it. (I will say, to her credit, she seems to be starting to do so, based on the links several people posted.)

If there's a silver lining, I guess it's that there are plenty of reasons for POC and others to dislike Trump. I won't pull the lever for anyone, but I'll pull the lever for the majority of Democratic candidates.
 

attyfan

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I don't like the way Warren has handled the ancestry issue. The idea that it should disable her from the Presidency, IMO, is absurd. I have two young great-nephews, ages 3 and 6. I would not be able to look them in the face if I refused to vote for her (assuming she is the nominee) because it would effectively be telling them that "I will take the chance of giving Trump and cronies another four years to endanger your lives (through inaction on gun control) and your future (through inaction on climate change), simply because years ago Elizabeth Warren improperly claimed Native American heritage." I just can't do it. Frankly, IMO, not only is the heritage issue of lesser importance than the current political issues and getting rid of Trump, her heritage issue is much less important than Harris's arguing in favor of improperly obtained convictions.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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Lot's of people claim NA ancestry. Some have it, but it wasn't officially recognized as said ancestors tribal affiliation was never entered into "official" federal registers. Some don't but have a family oral tradition that they do. One of my brothers insists he has NA ancestry but he most certainly does not. He just decided he must and was highly disappointed when another brother traced our father's family back to Germany (along with a lot of other European locations as well). It only becomes an issue when the individual uses the oral tradition to try and access federal benefits. And, that's complicated because you can be a full blood NA and not be able to access if your tribe didn't toe the line back in the 19th century. There is an entire subset of the Cherokee who are still trying to get recognition. Warren hasn't done anything many, many, many others have done.

As for those stupid DNA tests, it can't prove you are Irish or Italian or any political group. Being Irish is not a definable racial category. Neither is Native American for that matter as race is a sociopolitical construct and is not based on DNA. They totally misrepresent what they do which is not really in your best interest as they sell the data. The DNA tests make a best guess based on existing databases showing migration patterns in Europe. None of which makes you Irish, Italian, German or so forth. This is a major pet peeve of mine. Warren has done nothing that many, many others do every day.
 

once_upon

Voter
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Biden is one that I would only vote for if I had no other choice.
I certainly won't vote for him in a primary. Which by the time I get to vote in a primary the candidate will have already been determined. But my vote will be a protest vote if Biden has wrapped up a nomination. I won't vote for him unless forced to as the only alternative to Trump.
 
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ballettmaus

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What it tells us is that Biden's 7 point bump has a +/-6 margin of error. :p
 

Louis

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It sounds as though nothing she does will satisfy you.

Yes, you are absolutely right. She is unfit for the presidency, and nothing will convince me otherwise. I won’t vote for Trump, but I won’t vote for Warren either. I will do everything I can to make sure she is not the nominee.

As for those stupid DNA tests, it can't prove you are Irish or Italian or any political group. Being Irish is not a definable racial category. [...] The DNA tests make a best guess based on existing databases showing migration patterns in Europe. None of which makes you Irish, Italian, German or so forth. This is a major pet peeve of mine.

I think people (especially those without statistical knowledge) are correct to be skeptical of DNA testing, but the results for many populations (including and especially Irish) are more than just educated guesses. Even the “over-the-counter” DNA tests have gotten very good at predicting — down to the county level in Ireland — where families are from, and for how many generations they’ve been there. Other populations that are fairly insular — Iceland, Sardinia, etc. — are also extremely distinct and come with very high confidence. Continental Europe doesn’t work as well because migration is / was easier, with the exception of the Italian peninsula, where the reference data is not as pure as an island but still better than the rest of the continent.

It’s true that some of the predictions — especially for small countries with multiple land borders — are based on very small sample sizes, and some contain large margins of error. It’s also true that ancestry and identity may not be identical for many people.
 

Susan1

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Even the “over-the-counter” DNA tests have gotten very good at predicting — down to the county level in Ireland — where families are from, and for how many generations they’ve been there.
I really would like to do one of those things because I have genealogy research going back to the 1700s for everybody but my dad's grandmother. (Linda Mills - too common, and the census says her parents were born in New Orleans and New York! I got stuck 4 years ago.) It would be neat to see how accurate the rest is.

My mom always thought all of her ancestors were from Germany. Once I started doing genealogy research, I found out her dad's side came here from Luxembourg and Belgium in the 1880s. I've only got one Irish branch (great grandfather), but if I was kidding about something inherited, I'd say "I'm Irish".
 

Peaches LaTour

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At this point I would bet money on Biden. Probably Biden/Warren. I don't think his debate performances will matter much; I think name recognition and good connections and all the rest of it will propel him to the nomination.

I don't see a Biden/Warren ticket, at all. They are too close in age and too many people want to see younger blood on the ticket either as President or V.P.
 

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
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A court case to monitor as it progresses through the system:
A federal appeals court ruled late Tuesday that presidential electors who cast the actual ballots for president and vice president are free to vote as they wish and cannot be required to follow the results of the popular vote in their states.
The decision, from a three-judge panel of the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver, is a victory for Micheal Baca, a Colorado Democratic elector in 2016. Under state law, he was required to cast his ballot for Hillary Clinton, who won the state's popular vote. Instead, he crossed out her name and wrote in John Kasich, a Republican and then the governor of Ohio. The secretary of state removed Baca as an elector, discarded his vote and brought in another elector who voted for Clinton. In a 2-1 decision, the appeals court said the nullification of Baca's vote was unconstitutional.
 
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Vash01

Fan of Yuzuru, Three A's, T&M, P&C
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It seems Trump has one more challenger in the republican primaries - a former Tea Party republican.


Trump will win the republican nomination, but I am hoping that his challengers may weaken him somewhat, by criticizing him. His base won't be affected by this, but may be some undecided voters could move away from Trump? I think Bill Weld is a strong candidate who is challenging Trump.
 

MsZem

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VGThuy

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Probably the most famous dead-beat dad in the U.S.

I just looked him up and for a dude all about fiscal responsibility and all that, he sure doesn’t be seem financially responsible himself. But I guess all the tax evasion and trying to get out of paying child support with misrepresentations are just other versions of what the rich do with their tax filings so...
 
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