The Race for the 2020 POTUS elections

VGThuy

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Im all about Boot-Edge-Edge. If you guys want to skew young... there ya go... case closed. (I think Kamala Harris is close to 60)

Being from California I have been a Kamala Harris uber since she was Attorney General here.... Always been an uber and told friends about her... but she is starting to sour on me...

I thought her and Warren had great debates... and as much as I DONT want to see Biden in there.. Id rather here Kamala (and all candidiates) have the passion for what they will do in office... rather than turning on other Dems and self canabalizing.

I aint interested in negative politics... I dont care what Joe Biden said in 1746. Tell me what you can and will do. Period. I come from a minority class of people too (ones who can still be denied housing and fired for who they are) and I dont want to dive into the past. I wnat to here about what you are capabale of doing and what you will do...

I guess my dream ticket would be Boot-Edge-Edge & Harris, or vice versa.

P.S. These crocodiles have the audacity to talk about tuition-free when I am at 16 months left of all my student loans.... Takes a lotta nerve.... a lotta nerve...lol
I kind of think Kamala Harris did do that in the debate. People talked a lot about her calling out Biden, but people were thinking she was winning the debate way before she did that to him. She talked a lot about what she wanted to do in office. I think we're all just projecting our biases onto how we saw how the candidates did or how they're running their campaign. IMO, other than Warren who has been going above-and-beyond with explaining her plans, all of the major candidates are sort of on more-or-less equal footing when it comes to explaining what they will do in office and what is motivating them to run for President.

I have a response to the "crocodiles" line and thinking about tuition-free in that way, but I sort of don't want to go there right now.
 

AngieNikodinovLove

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4,416
^^^ LOL, Im just like GREAT... if Sanders of someone like was to take office in Jan 21 that woulld be my LAST and final payment of college loans..... ugggggggg LOL

Harris! Boot-Edge-Edge! So many firsts!
 

VGThuy

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^^^ LOL, Im just like GREAT... if Sanders of someone like was to take office in Jan 21 that woulld be my LAST and final payment of college loans..... ugggggggg LOL

Harris! Boot-Edge-Edge! So many firsts!
It does suck. It's like when you had a contract for a service forever and then all of a sudden the provider provides this excellent deal that you don't qualify for.
 

ballettmaus

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But you know what, whether anyone likes it or not, politics is always about 'negotiation.'
Sure, but with regards to Biden and his segregationist example, how far is too far? Should a politician negotiate with segregationists today? What about white supremacists? Nazis? It's not the 1970s anymore and there is a lot to re-think, I think.


And - not directed at you specifically, aftershocks - since Biden keeps praising his negotiating skills and wants to be judged for what he did under Obama - I'd like for someone to ask him why he didn't negotiate Merrick Garland into the Supreme Court then.
 

Sparks

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But you know what, whether anyone likes it or not, politics is always about 'negotiation.' The best politicians know that. The best and most skillful, like FDR, knew how to negotiate softly and carry a big stick, with loads of charm and grace
That was Teddy Roosevelt not FDR.
 

aftershocks

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That was Teddy Roosevelt not FDR.
:) Then it was both, in their different ways during different eras. Read biographies of them both. It's interesting how they were related by blood, but belonged to different political parties. The thing is though, Teddy Roosevelt was a different kind of Republican, a more Progressive Republican. And in any case, the Republican party during TR's time had not yet fully transformed into the dreadful, horrific piece of crap it is today.

Here's a famous very apropos TR quote (utilized by one of the Threads of Resistance quilters, as part of the 2017 Artists Circle Alliance 'protest against Trump administration' exhibit at the New England Quilt Museum):

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save to the degree in which he himself stands by the country." -- Theodore Roosevelt

In Trump's case, we know he stands only by himself and for his own egregious, nefarious, narcissistic purposes and benefits.
 

ballettmaus

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"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save to the degree in which he himself stands by the country." -- Theodore Roosevelt
A man after my own heart! (At least when it comes to that quote ;))
 

aftershocks

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^^ Ah yes, true. IMHO, of the candidates running, Biden comes the closest to representing that kind of decent, forward-thinking approach. But it's a huge task today trying to meld decency with tough political infighting for the purposes of building unity. That's what Biden is up against.

I'd like for someone to ask him why he didn't negotiate Merrick Garland into the Supreme Court then.
Republicans unfortunately are two-faced, lily-livered pieces of crap for the most part. They'd stab their own mothers in the back for political power purposes. They certainly don't mind selling their country down the river either in order to stay on the good side of an incompetent, narcissistic tyrant, coward, blustering bully.

Of course, it's not as if every Democrat is exactly courageous or completely upstanding. Certainly none are perfect either. But at least there are many more Dems than Repubs who are a bit more open to trying to listen and to genuinely making an effort to work for the rights of the people, and to preserve our institutions, and to work toward civility.

* Your ridiculous contention that Biden needed to somehow 'negotiate' a magic trick to get Merrick Garland onto the Supreme Court is laughable. That's a rather idiotic scenario which truly doesn't make much sense. Can we at least try to be more reasonable and thoughtful in our debate and conversation on what's happening in our country?

Just consider lending your voice to encouraging all the Democratic candidates to fight fairly, to think beyond their own power ambitions, and to be more politic and civil in their debate, rather than scorched-earth divisiveness (e.g., pretentiously utilizing the race card to try taking down a front-running opponent), which will not ultimately serve any of them nor our country well.

Mitch McConnell and the Repubs were laughing up their two-faced, contrary f'ing sleeves knowing they could get away with grandstanding and ignoring Obama's nomination of Merrick Garland, because so many people in the U.S. are blithering fools who will fall for Repub high-and-mighty pandering platitudes and hypocritical, half-assed spin tactics.

Biden is doing his best as a decent human being and an experienced politician of the old school to find a way to bring this country together. He came up during a different time, when working across party lines and respecting each other's humanity (despite enormous political differences) was actually a thing.

Today, there's simply no sense of historical perspective. Unfortunately, stupidity, ass-backward thinking, and one-upmanship for the sake of being 'in-your-face' for useless brownie points reign, even on forums like this one. :(

* Why not get behind Biden or the candidate of your choice, and no matter who gets the Dem nomination, make sure to advocate for that candidate to nominate Merrick Garland for the Supreme Court when hopefully that Dem candidate wins the WH (and the next SC vacancy occurs on that Dem president's watch)! :drama: :drama: :saint: :saint:
 
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ballettmaus

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Your ridiculous contention that Biden needed to somehow 'negotiate' a magic trick to get Merrick Garland into the Supreme Court is laughable. Stop with the idiotic scenarios please.
I'm not the one who keeps praising Biden's negotiating skills, says we need to work with Republicans and that he is the only one who can do that and cites his relationship and ability to work with segregationists as an example. That is Biden himself. So, if he is such a great negotiator and sure he can negotiate with the current Republican Senate why didn't he prove that when he had the chance to? Or what makes him think that Republicans will be any more open and willing to negotiate with him than Obama (or current Democrats in Congress)?
 
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ballettmaus

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He's white.
As I was typing it, I had the same thought. (And I'm not sure how I feel about the fact that Biden could be thinking that, too. It may be true but it's still crass). Back in 2015/16 I would have thought that this might/could make a difference to McConnell but today, I'm not so sure. Is there a single bill that the House passed that he has brought to the floor?
 

aftershocks

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I'm not the one who keeps praising Biden's negotiating skills, says we need to work with Republicans and that he is the only one who can do that and cites his relationship and ability to work with segregationists as an example. That is Biden himself. So, if he is such a great negotiator and sure he can negotiate with the current Republican Senate why didn't he prove that when he had the chance to? Or what makes him think that Republicans will be any more open and willing to negotiate with him than Obama (or current Democrats in Congress)?
As I said earlier, and as what is clearly obvious, Biden has a tough task ahead of him. He's an experienced politician who's been in the trenches for a long time, which is unaccountably something he has to overcome in this ridiculous day and age. He's not respected for his actual accomplishments, and in some cases, he's expected to run away from past political stances, some of which he adopted for strategic political purposes of achieving higher goals.

Politics is and has always been a dirty business, which muddies the most outstanding, upstanding, decent human beings of whom Biden is a shining example. In any case, shame on all of us for consistently expecting a miraculous savior politician to lead us out of the messes we are fully culpable for allowing people we have elected to contribute to making. There are currently way too many people in Congress who are not there for the right reasons and should never have been elected to public office in the first place. There are too many devilish lobbyists, too many conflicts of interest, too much corporate money and corrupt motivations, way too much self-interest, pontificating and grandstanding. Forget about the Trump circus that is and has been doing damage we can't even face measuring nor buck up to even examine too closely.

Biden is trying to find his way through all of this, and he's trying to put together a responsible campaign that promotes his strengths. It's a huge task, what with all the nasty booby traps Dems and Progressives are setting to add to the stealthy ones dirty Repubs are creating behind-the-scenes and in broad daylight. Twitterer-in-chief is rubbing his fat, orange Twitter fingers. :( :drama: :wall: :saint:
 

aftershocks

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He's white.
:confused: In actuality, no one is either 'white' or 'black' or 'yellow.' Those are manmade constructs created in a different time to divide the so-called 'lower-classes' in order to keep the largely pale-skinned power mongers comfortably in control. The whole 'White Anglo-Saxon Protestant' proselytizing is based on mythic notions. Read the book, Stamped From the Beginning, and try to keep an open mind and realize there's so much we have yet to learn about history.

I bet we all better recognize that neither mother nature, nor a nuclear bomb gives a rat's ass what your skin looks like. We all bleed red, and there are only four human blood types. We are one race, human race. The sooner we understand that reality, the better off we'll all be.

Another thing: Human history is about an ongoing series of migrations, power battles, indoctrination via religions, practices of slavery among and against different tribal groups throughout many periods of history both ancient and modern, until the practice turned into a monster that has corrupted our minds and emotions possibly to the point of no return. That's the sad end of times we are facing unless human beings wake the F' up and realize we are all connected, and we must come together in unity and strength and get behind principles of decency and caring for each other, if we hope to save this planet. I don't see this realization nor unity happening in our lifetimes. But decent people still need to gather together now to try and battle against ignorance, greed, fear, complacency and narcissistic tyranny.
 
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aftershocks

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By saying Biden thinks because he's what we call 'white' that he feels that is an important difference and a superior poltical/ societal distinction, is rather crass thinking in and of itself on the part of you who are thinking that of Biden.

Biden is not perfect, and no one is perfect. Why is he being so over-analyzed and held to some impossible standard though? Are we going to shoot ourselves in the 2020 WH race in order to score useless philosophical brownie points? I don't know how enllghtened Biden is about historical realities, but he is a decent human being who has shown he cares about people, he loves our country and he has served our country diligently and tirelessly. No matter his human failings, I think Biden has an open heart and an open mind, as well as governing competence born of knowledge and experience.

Biden can't change the color of his skin, nor can he re-think any of his past political decisions or ill-advised comments and poorly perceived actions that did not actually have harmful intent behind them. It's enough for me that Biden has always shown how much he cares about the people and the country he serves and represents. Biden has worked loyally and supportively alongside an ethnically-diverse U.S. president for eight years. And, Biden's first inclination, whether premature or seen as self-serving or otherwise, was to approach a woman of color politician about the possibility of becoming his running mate.

Overall, I think Dems and Progressives better think in a more strategically unified way, at least behind-the-scenes, if we hope to have a chance to mount a successful battle against corrupt, cynical Repubs and the narcissistic tyranny of Trump circus.
 

ballettmaus

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Biden is not perfect, and no one is perfect. Why is he being so over-analyzed and held to some impossible standard though?
Again, because of comments he has made himself while campaigning.


nor can he re-think any of his past political decisions or ill-advised comments and poorly perceived actions that did not actually have harmful intent behind them.
Anyone can look back at what they said and/or did and then say, yes, I'd still say/do it today, or no, today, I would choose to say/do differently and Biden can do that, too. It's called self-reflection.
 

skateboy

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I'm not crazy about Biden. That aside, I don't feel confident he could take on Trump (despite the polls... look what that got us in 2016... hell, I've never been polled in my life).

I'd rather see a younger, more energetic candidate, completely opposite of the (albeit deranged) septuagenarian we currently have in the White House. I think we need someone that can really make Trump look like the fool he is. Not only that, it could be great for the country. Mayor Pete is my first pick, Kamala my second. I also like Yang, but I don't think, at this point, he can rise to the top tier of potential nominees.
 

VGThuy

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I don't get why people are so oversensitive to a political candidate getting some criticism. What do you think will happen to Biden if he becomes the Dem candidate? That the Republicans will take it easy on him? Please. It's better he be prepared to tackle these things now. This is the warm-up before the big fight. Also, why is it that only Biden is having these big drawn out defenses written up for him. Every major Dem candidate has been written about and dissected or dismissed. It's part of the game. What matters is that once we select a candidate, we all just show up and vote. However, silencing dissent and criticisms will just make people more angry about being silenced and dismissed, and thus think of the Establishment again shutting people down in favor of their preferred candidate.
 

aftershocks

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... Anyone can look back at what they said and/or did and then say, yes, I'd still say/do it today, or no, today, I would choose to say/do differently and Biden can do that, too. It's called self-reflection.
So you have more to 'get' Biden on then apparently. If you are already leading with not liking him because you think he's an ineffectual bungler who causes trouble for himself when he opens his mouth and utters folksy, well-meaning, often strategically-prepared, but misperceived utterances, so be it.

Who are you in favor of who's so much more better than Biden as a potential Dem nominee for president?

Hillary was not the best campaigner in the world, but she was a smart, tough, competent, vastly knowledgeable, indefatigable boss lady who would have been a cool-headed president with the capacity for growth. She had decent, caring motives that went beyond mere ambition to wield power. Sadly, her spiteful, scorched-earth political enemies won out. And our country and the world are the lesser for her loss, even though she didn't lose the popular vote. Now, a lot of people wish to forget she ever existed, unless they are conveniently blaming her and her husband for all the ills of our nation and of the global century. :COP:
 

ballettmaus

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So you have more to 'get' Biden on then apparently. If you are already leading with not liking him because you think he's an ineffectual bungler who causes trouble for himself when he opens his mouth and utters folksy, well-meaning, often strategically-prepared, but misperceived utterances, so be it.
:huh:
 

canbelto

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One thing about Biden is that for 8 years the Obama administration kept a rather tight leash on him. Their President/VP arrangement worked because Biden was expected to take a backseat to Obama and defer to Obama as the voice of the administration.

Biden on his own doesn't have the discipline of the Obama team, and we're seeing that play out.
 

ballettmaus

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One thing about Biden is that for 8 years the Obama administration kept a rather tight leash on him. Their President/VP arrangement worked because Biden was expected to take a backseat to Obama and defer to Obama as the voice of the administration.
Isn't that rather normal though?
 

canbelto

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Isn't that rather normal though?
It is, I'm just saying that the "surprise" some people are getting from Joe Biden on the campaign trail is because he didn't say these things when he was VP. Now he's uncensored and we're getting a look at him with a new filter.
 

aftershocks

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I'm not crazy about Biden. That aside, I don't feel confident he could take on Trump (despite the polls... look what that got us in 2016... hell, I've never been polled in my life).

I'd rather see a younger, more energetic candidate, completely opposite of the (albeit deranged) septuagenarian we currently have in the White House. I think we need someone that can really make Trump look like the fool he is. Not only that, it could be great for the country. Mayor Pete is my first pick, Kamala my second. I also like Yang, but I don't think, at this point, he can rise to the top tier of potential nominees.
Fair enough, and thanks for your response. Still, how much do you know about Kamala Harris. Where's @Vagabond who once provided a thoughtful heads-up about Harris? In hiding somewhere?

Can you elaborate on why you think a younger, more energetic candidate can do better against sly, in-your-face, corrupt Trump circus? I don't think we should assume anyone can beat a lyin' cheatin' pussy-grabber who's supported by devilish, cowardly ass-lickin' two-faced, back-stabbin' Repubs and deplorable idiots going to hell in a handbasket, unfortunately taking the rest of the population into the abyss with their gnarly asinine backsides.

That said, at this interim, I would support Biden-Buttigieg, Biden-Castro, and even Biden-Warren. Please break it down for me precisely why besides her lawyerly skills, her power ambitions, and her WOC-status why Kamala Harris deserves our attention and our votes?
 

aftershocks

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I don't get why people are so oversensitive to a political candidate getting some criticism. What do you think will happen to Biden if he becomes the Dem candidate? That the Republicans will take it easy on him? Please. It's better he be prepared to tackle these things now. This is the warm-up before the big fight. Also, why is it that only Biden is having these big drawn out defenses written up for him. Every major Dem candidate has been written about and dissected or dismissed. It's part of the game. What matters is that once we select a candidate, we all just show up and vote. However, silencing dissent and criticisms will just make people more angry about being silenced and dismissed, and thus think of the Establishment again shutting people down in favor of their preferred candidate.
Eh, there's no need to exaggerate. People are piling on Biden at the moment, precisely because we know more about him than we do the other candidates. Go figure.

I lead from telling it as I see it, whether you consider it some kind of 'Biden defense' or not. It's still early yet. I will continue to try and look clearly at what I can see, and speak honestly. Hopefully, you have something more thoughtful to bring out instead of knee-jerk exaggeration about other posters' perceived 'oversensitivity' toward Biden critiques.

Thanks again to @skateboy and others who want to engage in thoughtful, hearty debate without being oversensitive and defensive. I'm asking questions. I'm speaking how I feel at this moment in time, based on my own knowledge and experience.

It's early yet, and I haven't made a final choice. At this juncture in time, it must be apparent that nothing is normal these days. All these horses in the Dem race may not add up to enough to beat Trump circus. We need to be cognizant of doing our level best to not let the abyss happen. Mueller was supposed to be the savior, and we all know where that delirious, desperate hope went. These Dem candidates need to be mindful of not tearing each other to pieces and then having nothing left with which to mount a viable battle against Trump and cohorts, cuz that's what the dirty Repubs and their scorched-earth media and corrupt corporate allies are banking on.

You say 'once we select a candidate' all it takes is going out to vote. We thought that with Hillary too. It's going to take much more than assumptions and expectations, and expecting a large Democrat turnout to the voting booths -- much, much more is needed. Things are NOT normal.
 

skateboy

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Fair enough, and thanks for your response. Still, how much do you know about Kamala Harris. Where's @Vagabond who once provided a thoughtful heads-up about Harris? In hiding somewhere?

Can you elaborate on why you think a younger, more energetic candidate can do better against sly, in-your-face, corrupt Trump circus? I don't think we should assume anyone can beat a lyin' cheatin' pussy-grabber who's supported by devilish, cowardly ass-lickin' two-faced, back-stabbin' Repubs and deplorable idiots going to hell in a handbasket, unfortunately taking the rest of the population into the abyss with their gnarly asinine backsides.

That said, at this interim, I would support Biden-Buttigieg, Biden-Castro, and even Biden-Warren. Please break it down for me precisely why besides her lawyerly skills, her power ambitions, and her WOC-status why Kamala Harris deserves our attention and our votes?
I will vote for whomever the Democratic nominee happens to be, as there is no current candidate that would cause me to send my vote to Trump.

In my opinion, Mayor Pete has shown himself to come up with an intelligent, sane and reasonable answer to everything that has been thrown his way. Even when Trump ridiculously (and not surprisingly) called Pete "Alfred E. Neuman," Pete's response was, "well, I'm actually impressed that he made a literary reference..." The man is brilliant and I believe that, especially in a debate, the juxtaposition between him and Trump would be glaring. Biden or Sanders up against Trump, even just visually, wouldn't have that kind of an impact... my opinion, of course.

As for Kamala, she's shown herself to be tough with William Barr (one of the few that got him tongue-tied) and now Biden. She's not my first choice, but she has shown herself to be a tough cookie who's not about to put up with any BS.

Unfortunately, a large number of voters (maybe the majority) vote on a whim, without studying the virtues of the candidates. Many voters that chose not to vote for Hillary did so simply because they didn't "like her." We need someone who can trample Trump in a head-to-head confrontation. I believe Pete or Kamala are capable of it.
 

aftershocks

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Unfortunately, a large number of voters (maybe the majority) vote on a whim, without studying the virtues of the candidates. Many voters that chose not to vote for Hillary did so simply because they didn't "like her." We need someone who can trample Trump in a head-to-head confrontation. I believe Pete or Kamala are capable of it.
Sadly true re your bolded observation. That's why it's important for Dems to carefully assess these candidates and go beyond 'debate pontificating and grand-standing point-gathering.' As Lawrence O'Donnell reminded us, who wins the debates doesn't always win the nomination nor the presidency.

It's not really about me 'not liking' Kamala Harris. I didn't know much about her initially, and I was very partial to her candidacy early on, even before anyone announced, until @Vagabond had a few things he brought out about her record in California that seemed questionable. I can't recall the details. If there's anything there, you can be sure it will rear it's ugly head sooner or later. Let it not be after she's become the Dem nominee please. :drama:

I like Pete Buttigieg a lot. As I said, it's early days yet. We all need to be diligent, observant, and fairly common-sense reasonable in holding all of these candidates' feet to the fire, without burning them beyond fighting prowess ability for surmounting the big battle. ETA: I know I don't have any answers. I'm asking questions, and I'm concerned about what lies ahead.

These candidates need to be tough and slyly strategic enough to battle Trump in a not normal way because nothing's normal these days, but without falling into a miasma with him. That's not easy. It would be helpful to know how each of them are thinking along those lines of mounting a not normal candidacy against Trump circus. Still, that's not all that's needed. The Dem candidates have got to bring something much greater to the table, because whoever might win it all, they will inherit a mess of all messes.

I think right now, for the most part, Trump is cruising economically on benefits won through the hard work done by the Obama administration over eight years. The next couple of years under Trump possibly will begin to show the cracks and pitfalls of his and the Repubs' wayward, self-interested policies.
 
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VGThuy

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Which is why it's important to critique and go after each Dem candidate now so they can know how to deal with it earlier on when the Republicans launch the same attacks. If the Dems don't face it now, they won't be as prepared to face it when the Republican machine turns on.
 

aftershocks

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If the Dems don't face it now, they won't be as prepared to face it when the Republican machine turns on.
^^ But there's strategic, dirty, taking each other down to win in the polls, and then there's an actual fight based on debating policy and governing differences, varying ideas and approaches to tackling real problems. If the debates are just a show-off, one-liner point-gathering entertainment, I'm not interested because I will learn very little in the process of the back-stabbing and talking over each other.

I think the Dem candidates need to find a way to answer debate questions responsibly and actually truly engage in real debate, and be different and better than the Republican nightmare debates. Stop with the throwing mud to deep-six the front-runner, with the sad excuse that makes you 'tough enough' to go up aganst Trump. It's not about who's more 'tough' than Trumpster. He's not tough, he's a cowardly bully who always takes the nefarious, simple-minded, easy way out. We exist in an era of a dumbed-down populace, and that's a huge part of the problem.

In any case, AFAIK, the 'Repub dirt machine,' never really turns off. They are always taking notes and planning mud-slinging campaigns against Dems and liberals. That's always the Repubs' modus operandi, no matter if they take the country down in the process. Remember the two-faced, self-serving, hypocritical words that have always come straight out of their mouths. The U.S. populace have poor memories and faint hearts. We want someone to take us by the hand and lead us out of the desert into the Promised Land. But we don't understand what's actually required of each and everyone of us for that idealistic fantasy to become reality. It's much more than just a notion and way more than simply getting up off our backsides to go vote on election day.
 
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VGThuy

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One person's mud-slinging is another person's issue they want one candidate to answer for. It depends on what you find important. If one doesn't like someone already, like Harris, then you're going to think whatever she did was just grandstanding for increased poll numbers. Some people found the debates useful just getting an introduction to the candidates or at least it made them pause after seeing how a candidate can deal under pressure or how they can command a room of other strong presences. Some think that's an important quality in a President, especially dealing with negotiation and diplomacy.

Anyways, even if it was just grandstanding and a strategy works to increase poll numbers, then, if it worked, then something she said resonated with people, so how can it be really illegitimate? Also, it reveals a weakness for Biden. This doesn't have to be a bad thing for him. Now he knows he needs to be prepared in a debate and not take his lead for granted. The Republicans will not play clean. Biden better have better responses later on when things get more serious. Plus, Biden was far from the only person who had to deal with tough questions. He just got caught being woefully unprepared for this debate or at least thought he had an answer that pleased people and it did not. Better for him to know now.

The best way to get to know candidates is to not just go by television appearances and debates because we all know television is a medium that rewards star power and superficial showing off. It's best to look at their websites, policies they openly support, if there are any plans laid out to deal with them, their record, and see substantive things other people say about them who know them or worked for them or lived in an area where they had power, etc.
 
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