The Race for the 2020 POTUS elections

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Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
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I think you are confusing Trump with Red Joe, whose family has extensive business with the PRC.
I think Trump also likes anyone who will let him build his hotels, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks of them. If there is a dollar in for him, then he has no problem with them.
 

el henry

#WeAllWeGot #WeAllWeNeed
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If it wasn't for the problem of putting a Senate seat into play, the rebellious side of me sure would love to turn on the TV to a Mike Pence-Tammy Baldwin VP candidates debate. She's only 58 so it would add another generation to the ticket. It would be so satisfying to watch her help take WI away from Trump and see an openly gay candidate elected to executive office much to the horror of the anti-LGBTQ evangelicals and hateful Falwell Christian conservatives.


Pete versus Pence, sigh, what could have been....Not only is Pete such an excellent speaker, but not yielding the language of faith or the state of Indiana to Mr. Pence:)

But I'm cool with what I hope will be a cabinet position:cool:
 

b-man

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And yet Trump has done so much for the PRC!

In his own words: 15 Times Trump Praised China during *****





Yes, Trump praised the PRC for caving on trade, when Trump imposed harsh tariffs. The Dems and so called Economists said it wouldn't work, would start a trade war, but the Chinese caved, agreed to buy hundred of millions in US agriculture, just as Trump planned. When the ***** hit, who was tough on China, Trump who stopped flights, or Red Joe who yelled about xenophobia. I guess China got their moneys worth in the business deals with the Biden family. Trump continues to be a hardliner, attributing almost daily the ***** to its source in China. Red Joe is on the payroll, and will make no such assertion. When questioned a few years ago about threats from China, Joe essentially said, Aw C'mon man, China's not a threat. Meanwhile, China is threatening the border with India, restricting freedoms in Hong Kong, threatening Taiwan, building island fortresses in the South China sea, seizing Vietnamese and Phillipine fishing boats at will, threatening Japanese islands in the east China sea, plus engaging in large scale espionage on US soil. China will have a field day if Red Joe gets elected. As far as Putin goes, Trump sent Javelin anti tank missiles to the Ukraine, much to the consternation of Vlad, something Obama/Biden would never do. Even more important, Trump went full speed ahead with US oil production through fracking. This reduced the price of oil and gas for US consumers, while simultaneously eroding the Russian economy, dependent on the sale of oil. A masterstroke by Trump. I am done here. You people are in over your head. You know so much which isn't true.
 

VGThuy

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Yes, Trump praised the PRC for caving on trade, when Trump imposed harsh tariffs. The Dems and so called Economists said it wouldn't work, would start a trade war, but the Chinese caved, agreed to buy hundred of millions in US agriculture, just as Trump planned. When the ***** hit, who was tough on China, Trump who stopped flights, or Red Joe who yelled about xenophobia. I guess China got their moneys worth in the business deals with the Biden family. Trump continues to be a hardliner, attributing almost daily the ***** to its source in China. Red Joe is on the payroll, and will make no such assertion. When questioned a few years ago about threats from China, Joe essentially said, Aw C'mon man, China's not a threat. Meanwhile, China is threatening the border with India, restricting freedoms in Hong Kong, threatening Taiwan, building island fortresses in the South China sea, seizing Vietnamese and Phillipine fishing boats at will, threatening Japanese islands in the east China sea, plus engaging in large scale espionage on US soil. China will have a field day if Red Joe gets elected. As far as Putin goes, Trump sent Javelin anti tank missiles to the Ukraine, much to the consternation of Vlad, something Obama/Biden would never do. Even more important, Trump went full speed ahead with US oil production through fracking. This reduced the price of oil and gas for US consumers, while simultaneously eroding the Russian economy, dependent on the sale of oil. A masterstroke by Trump. I am done here. You people are in over your head. You know so much which isn't true.

You write some basic-ass conclusory statements and then accuse everyone else of being in over their head? Everything you wrote has been a copy and paste job from shallow talking points repeated ad naseum from right wing news sources that mistake headlines and blurbs for research and true journalism. Talk about in over your head. Do some independent reading, some actual research, and look at detailed accounts.

First off, I already posted articles that undermined all you've said about China, but in case you need another:


The new deal halves tariff rates on $120bn worth of goods, but most of the higher duties - which affect another $360bn of Chinese goods and more than $100bn worth of US exports - remain in place. And that's bad news for the American public.

Economists have found that the costs - more than $40bn so far - are being borne entirely by US companies and consumers. And that figure does not even try to measure lost business due to retaliation.

Overall, the Congressional Budget Office estimates that tariff-related uncertainty and costs have shaved 0.3% off of US economic growth, while reducing household income by an average of $580 since 2018.

The CBO's estimates take into account all new tariffs imposed since January 2018 - not just those involving China - but analysts say a more limited look would yield similar findings.

Further, it has hurt American agriculture and farmers:

Farmers, who have been targeted by China's tariffs, have seen bankruptcies soar, prompting a $28bn federal bailout.

Among manufacturers, the Federal Reserve has found employment losses, stemming from the higher import costs and China's retaliation.

Over the long-term, American firms may reroute supply chains away from China to avoid the tariffs - but that's an expensive prospect.

Regarding all the threats China is on that region of the world...they still are. Trump has done nothing but given lip service. You know what could have helped strengthen that region and lessen China's threats? Trade deals, alliances, and diplomacy. Nothing improved under Trump and if anything, we've regressed back to the wild west when things were moving forward there. However, idiots who think stomping your feet and acting like a child = strength. That's what immature idiots think, not rational, grown adults. That's like saying America will fall into race riots and chaos with Joe Biden...and then using pictures and examples of things happening UNDER TRUMP. As for Taiwan, Trump betrayed them but as a Vietnamese-American, I understand blind, irrational hatred towards China runs so deep that they appreciate the initial lip service and can't see behind the fact that Trump doesn't give two shits about that region, hasn't done anything to really improve matters there, and actually went back on his word. Donald "One China" Trump.

As for your simple-minded assertion that Biden would have done nothing because he called Trump xenophobic. That has been rated mostly false:


But Biden has not directly said that the travel restriction was xenophobic. He has used that phrase in reference to Trump and his handling of the ******** outbreak. Biden’s campaign told PolitiFact that Biden’s tweets were not specific to the restrictions on people coming from China.

Biden tweeted: "We are in the midst of a crisis with the ********. We need to lead the way with science — not Donald Trump’s record of hysteria, xenophobia, and fear-mongering. He is the worst possible person to lead our country through a global health emergency."

But Biden did not explicitly tie xenophobia to the travel restriction. His tweet reflects ******** remarks he made during a campaign stop in Iowa Jan. 31, the day the travel restrictions were announced.

-----

During a March 12 press conference Biden said, the United States should not be overly dismissive of the outbreak, "but neither should we panic or fall back on xenophobia, labeling *********-19 a foreign ***** does not displace accountability for the misjudgments that have been taken thus far by the Trump administration."

First, he was talking about labeling the ***** as a China ***** as Trump did. Trump did it to dissassociate himself from responsibility and again to other people. Ask any Asian-American about "China *****". Biden said to lead by science and not sheer bigotry because we know Trump does that (Muslim ban/family separations/children still in cages!). We all know what Trump has done to us by ignoring medical and scientific consensus and using this ********* to play politics. Look at Florida. Further, Trump needlessly politicized this whole thing and we have huge spikes of infection and a rising tide of deaths. Can you argue that? You'll end up looking as foolish as Trump did in that interview, fumbling papers who does not understand, like a Freshman undergrad who didn't do his work all semester and is begging the professor for a passing grade.

And regarding your love letter to fracking:


Any benefits to growth from lower gas prices would be minimized because the ******** appears to be making Americans more hesitant about spending money.

The fracking revolution has made oil and natural gas production key factors for overall growth, and lower energy prices reduce drilling activity. That leads to fewer jobs, cuts in factory orders and a host of aftershocks that could leave the nation as a whole worse off despite lower gasoline costs.

As for Russia and oil...Trump has no idea what he's doing and has made the situation worse which why he flipped flop:


But Texas is getting crushed by cheap oil. Russia, seeking to blunt the rise of US shale oil producers, refused last month to cut oil production. Saudi Arabia responded by surging output and slashing prices.
Reflecting the urgency of the moment, Trump is meeting with the CEOs of ExxonMobil (XOM), Chevron and other leading US oil companies Friday to discuss the crisis facing the industry.
Navigating this situation is a delicate balance. The White House doesn't want oil bankruptcies and job losses on its hands. But Trump doesn't want to be seen helping oil CEOs and Saudi Arabia at the expense of average Americans who want cheap gas prices.

This does not sound like Russia cowering to me. Quite the opposite. They played him.

Also, the javelin sale isn't that impressive and is misleading:


In short, the Javelins were essentially provided to Ukraine under the condition that they not be used in the conflict zone.....Throughout the impeachment proceedings, Trump has faced harsh criticism for freezing the security assistance, and allegations of risking both US and Ukrainian national security for personal gain. But Trump was actually reluctant to sell the missiles to Ukraine and did so only after he was persuaded it would be good for US business, current and former officials familiar with the decision told Foreign Policy.

Accordingly, the Javelins have yet to be used in the fighting, though US personnel are training some Ukrainian forces how to use them against tanks.

Regarding Obama's aid, people there said:

The Obama administration provided assistance to Ukraine as well, but would only offer non-lethal aid for fear of exacerbating the conflict and tensions with the Kremlin. There were also concerns that the anti-tank missiles could fall into the wrong hands.

The nonlethal aid provided to Ukraine under former President Barack Obama included US personnel to train Ukrainian forces, Humvees, night-vision goggles, advanced radar, patrol boats, body armor, and humanitarian assistance.

Olga Oliker, the director for Europe and Central Asia at the International Crisis Group, recently told Foreign Policy that nonlethal aid is actually considered more helpful than the Javelins, even as Ukrainian officials have celebrated their arrival.

"While generals and politicians in Kyiv played up the Javelins, in my own experience, soldiers in the field talked more about getting insufficient quantities of the nonlethal aid that they really needed — secure communications, armored vehicles, counterbattery radars," Oliker said.

So it seems Trump didn't even want to give those missiles until he saw money for himself AND they're not even being used in combat zones, can't be used by the Ukrainians, and Obama's method was actually more useful and effective. There's a reason Putin wanted Trump in office. Stop using Ted Cruz's tweets as a resource.

Let's not forget a man who's been in Ukraine and seen all the action, and what he said about Trump:


Ambassador Bill Taylor gained fame for a text message in which he challenged President Donald Trump’s decision to withhold aid to Ukraine until it announced an investigation into Hunter Biden. “I think it’s crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign,” Taylor wrote to Ambassador Gordon Sondland, on September 9th. The text became a key piece of evidence in the impeachment of Trump on charges of abusing power for political gain. Taylor testified on the first day of the House impeachment hearings that he had adamantly opposed the decision to withhold aid. “I could not and would not defend such a policy,” Taylor said.

Again, Trump wanted to withhold assistance to Ukraine in order to dig up dirt on a political opponent. And yet you still want to applaud Trump for helping Ukraine? Really? As Diana Ross said, "upside down, boy you turn me, inside out and round and round..." I don't know what kind of reality that is but it's not this one.

One last thing, your final line is appropriate, "You people are in over your head. You know so much which isn't true." Because Trump fans are nothing but kings and queens of projection. Everything you ever accuse others of being and doing is just you shouting at a mirror because you know deep down what you're guilty of and what you've been complicit in doing. Every criticism you have leveled at Joe Biden and most likely Hillary Clinton four years ago has been true of Trump, if not shown worse by Trump. I don't understand how you can pretend to be a poster of principle when you direct criticism and then turn-around right after and deny Trump any responsibility or criticism for proven actions he committed that you pretend to abhor from Democrats.

I don't know how you sleep at night knowing you full-heartedly support a man who is committing human rights abuses against children on American soil. Is it because they're from Latin America and therefore subhuman? Answer me that. YOU NEVER ANSWER ANY QUESTION DIRECTLY. So tell me once and for all, do you support that? Do you support his explicit racism? How about I repost the 200+ examples of his lying and cruelty and have you answer them one-by-one and then you tell me you still support him.
 
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Reuven

Official FSU Alte Kacher
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^^^Why bother? That person @VGThuy is addressing isn’t interested in facts.


To be fair, Kaine wasn't a bad pick. Hillary could have had Jesus Christ himself as a running mate and it wouldn't have mattered.
No, no, no, no, not that SOCIALIST!

Y’all have got me worried a little here. This election is too CRUCIAL to let purity be the enemy of good.
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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some think it is down to Rice vs Harris now.

If he picks Harris, folks who don't like her should think about the worst choice a Democrat ever made: Joe Lieberman. Biden could do worse. Or Lloyd Bentsen. Harris just isn't the worst thing we could get by a long shot. I'm not interested in arguing away her flaws but people are going to accept it if she's the pick.

Plus if you don't like Harris, and you're okay with Rice that doesn't make sense. Rice never ran for office so we don't know what she'd do about raising money. Rice is entirely focused on foreign policy so we don't know where she stands on policing and criminal justice issues.

What @clairecloutier said about Rice being a Washington insider, that is what she is and it is truly bizarre that she could be the pick. I highly respect Susan Rice and think she is capable but she would be an extremely unusual pick.

I don't see much worse about Biden picking Harris than there was about Obama picking Biden; at least Harris isn't a sexist. Its always better not to get invested in the choice ahead of time because you're going to be voting for the ticket no matter what.
 

VGThuy

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I think we all can admit that we will most likely vote for Biden no matter who his running mate is. We've all made concessions when Biden was chosen with a few who have always been 100% for him. However, even those who have supported him have to deal with him negotiating and compromising with the wing of the party they do not like nor their policies. We all will have to deal with his VP pick in our own ways. That said, I don't see anything wrong with vocalizing our critique of Harris or any other candidate if we have problems with them. We can only go by what each one has actually done (we don't have the luxury of playing what-if) and measure it against what we feel is important. I don't see anything wrong with that because people care what they care about. It doesn't change the fact that we live in a situation where we have to vote for her if she's chosen as the running mate and will probably do so. I will say it's easier for a candidate when they haven't had to deal with issues that seem most pertinent to today and thus they can skate by, but that's politics. Obama benefitted from that in 2008.
 

BlueRidge

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I can't really get behind Kamala Harris too much. As I mentioned, my preference is a less controversial pick.

I find the idea that Harris is controversial odd. She is unpopular with a significant segment of progressives because of her prosecutorial background. I don't think that is the same as being controversial.

And according to this poll, she is the top choice of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents:
Exclusive: Kamala Harris leads Elizabeth Warren and Susan Rice in new VP poll (Vox)

Its normal for a pick not to suit one part of the party on ideological grounds (criminal justice, corporate ties in this case). I don't think it makes the person "controversial."

The fact of the matter is that while she is not the pick of the progressive wing of the party, she is probably a good pick for the ticket in a lot of ways. So are others like Karen Bass and Tammy Duckworth.

The progressive left hasn't taken over the party yet; we wouldn't have Biden as nominee if it had. So we're going to have a lot of corporate Democrats in a Biden administration. The struggle continues.
 

Vagabond

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I find the idea that Harris is controversial odd. She is unpopular with a significant segment of progressives because of her prosecutorial background. I don't think that is the same as being controversial.
The problem with her isn't that she was a prosecutor, but rather specific things that she did as a prosecutor, such as failing to comply with her prosecutorial duty to disclose to defendants and their counsel information about tainted evidence. And "controversial" is a kind way of putting it.
 

BlueRidge

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It isn't her the problem that she was a prosecutor, but rather specific things that she did as a prosecutor, such as failing to comply with her prosecutorial duty to disclose to defendants and their counsel information about tainted evidence. And "controversial" is a kind way of putting it.

A lot of people judge differently. Including Joe Biden, who thinks she is one of the best choices.

If you can defend Joe Biden, you can defend Kamala Harris, if she is the pick. And you better be ready:

Biden’s VP should be prepared for an onslaught of online misogyny unlike anything seen before (Karen Tumulty--Washington Post)

(I disagree in part with the headline. We have seen it before.)

“We need to surround her and be there to promote her,” Speier said. “It’s our job to be the flank.”

Vigilance, especially by other women, could be the difference between whether Biden’s choice is a footnote to history — or changes its course.
 
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VGThuy

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I read another article from WaPo ranking Harris as no. 1, and my husband joked she was the only willing to get past the paywall. All jokes aside, all of us are ready to deal with her as the pick, just like I had to deal with Joe being the nominee, and have been defending him like crazy because politics is what it is. I will give him credit for one thing, he's made some of my hardline Trumpist family members from New Orleans feel more at-ease...more so than say Sanders and Warren would have. Most people see that as a good thing. I'm more mixed, but it makes my life somewhat easier in the short-term.
 

mrinalini

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Sounds to me like someone who could handle Putin;).
She could - look at what she did to Bloomberg...a billion dollars flushed down the toilet just like that. Democrats should be thanking her for that take-down more profusely, but of course that ain't gonna happen.

But she has absolutely no chance. Even though the NYT/Siena poll shows that 91% of Black voters do not care about the race of the VP, the corporate class has Biden by the throat in forcing him to pick a Black woman, and Biden is not the type who's up to resisting that kind of pressure.

The billionaires will get exactly what they want, like always; it's a shame because I think if left to his own devices, there's a strong chance that Biden would've picked Warren as he wanted her for his running mate in 2016.
 

VGThuy

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Wait, are you saying the corporate class is telling Biden to pick ANY black woman or a certain black woman? Why do they want him to pick a black woman so badly? Do you think it's all marketing? I'm just trying to understand your rationale.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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A Biden/Warren ticket would make me so happy, but TBH, I'm voting for him regardless. He's said he wants someone with whom he can have a relationship such as he had with Obama. So, if he's good, I'm good. I just wish the election was tomorrow and not in 3 months. I'm beyond ready for Trump to be gone.
 

VGThuy

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el henry

#WeAllWeGot #WeAllWeNeed
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I would trust Nick Gillespie's opinion of Biden exactly the same amount I would trust Kayleigh McEnany's characterization of Trump. Having watched the Biden interview and then read Gillespie's description, he [ETA: Gillespie] has the same untethered grasp of reality:lol:

Then again, IIRC, Gillespie is the same guy who said that Obama's overreach was greater than Trump's. Uhh, sorry Nick, the whataboutism copied straight out of the Macedonian troll farm doesn't work:shuffle:
 
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Andora

Skating season ends as baseball season begins
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Is it possible for Kamala Harris to somehow earn support from progressive voters? Has she done enough as a Senator to gain future consideration? Is she redeemable and believable? I guess her VP ratings indicate enough think so. I met Harris during the Kavanaugh hearings, but even THEN a number of disseminators I followed on Twitter were pointing out it her hearing moment was an ambitious presidential ploy.

Biden's gaffe reminding us it's going to be a long battle of the not-not-frail grandpas. I would very much like to believe she's redeemable and learned from her past if she's going to have such a potentially key future role.
 

BlueRidge

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Is it possible for Kamala Harris to somehow earn support from progressive voters?

what are they going to do otherwise, tell people not to vote for Biden?

Voters have no choice but to look for what may be good in both Biden and his VP pick be it Harris or someone else.

Nobody has any choice here at this point. And if people are horrified by that I'd just point to the state of things in this country and ask them, what on earth do you expect at this point?!

Hmm should I grab that lifeline or is someone I don't want to associate myself with holding the other end? I just can't decide what to do...

Really, people.
 

Andora

Skating season ends as baseball season begins
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what are they going to do otherwise, tell people not to vote for Biden?

Voters have no choice but to look for what may be good in both Biden and his VP pick be it Harris or someone else.

Nobody has any choice here at this point. And if people are horrified by that I'd just point to the state of things in this country and ask them, what on earth do you expect at this point?!

Hmm should I grab that lifeline or is someone I don't want to associate myself with holding the other end? I just can't decide what to do...

Really, people.

Absolutely-- and constant caveat that it's easy for me to agree to this because I'm not able to actually vote.

I've been a big Harris fan, and I appreciate the insight on FSU that helped temper that during the primaries. At the time, when the race got tough, a few posters noted this is what we wanted until there was a clear winner. Until Biden announces his running mate, I saw a lot of the discussion along the same lines. Like the lack of enthusiasm for VP picks in the past. But I've read the room wrong before.
 

BlueRidge

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I've been a big Harris fan, and I appreciate the insight on FSU that helped temper that during the primaries. At the time, when the race got tough, a few posters noted this is what we wanted until there was a clear winner. Until Biden announces his running mate, I saw a lot of the discussion along the same lines. Like the lack of enthusiasm for VP picks in the past. But I've read the room wrong before.

With regard to the criticism of Harris or any other VP pick, I am not suggesting people not make it, we should be aware of who our candidates are, including the downsides.

Its just that we need all the enthusiasm we can get and I don't want to see people talk themselves into a place where they can't convince others these candidates have some good points because we need all we can get to get everyone out to vote, or to fill out and mail in their ballots. Trump should be enough sure, but some positive talk can help. And there are positives to Biden and to each of the possible VP picks, no matter how far left one is.

Absolutely-- and constant caveat that it's easy for me to agree to this because I'm not able to actually vote.

I get an implication from what you say here that maybe for some people its going to hard to vote for the Dem ticket. Um, you know what? Anyone who has a hard time doesn't understand what their vote is. Its the only fcking chance we have to remove Trump. Every single person who isn't a Trump supporter should be dying to cast their vote for the Democratic ticket and thrilled to be able to do it. Anyone who feels tainted because they had to vote for such imperfect people needs to study more what democracy is and what voting is. Not to mention human history in general!
 
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Vagabond

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Is it possible for Kamala Harris to somehow earn support from progressive voters?
I have grudgingly voted for Harris in the past would not consider myself a "progressive" voter as that term is commonly used these days, but here goes.

If Harris would say that her failure to disclose information to defense counsel as required was unjustifiable, that she was sorry for what she did, and that she would work to make sure that no prosecutor did what she had done, then I would have to reevaluate my views of her.

I will be voting for Biden, though, even if he selects Harris. Heaven knows I've voted for her more times than I care to count.
 

VGThuy

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I have grudgingly voted for Harris in the past would not consider myself a "progressive" voter as that term is commonly used these days, but here goes.

If Harris would say that her failure to disclose information to defense counsel as required was unjustifiable, that she was sorry for what she did, and that she would work to make sure that no prosecutor did what she had done, then I would have to reevaluate my views of her.

I will be voting for Biden, though, even if he selects Harris. Heaven knows I've voted for her more times than I care to count.

What's that famous line? "What's one more time?"

Maybe two more times...or four more if Biden gets to do two terms and then she runs for President and wins one term...or three if Biden does one term and she runs for one, gets it, and then runs again...or so on and so forth...
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
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If Harris would say that her failure to disclose information to defense counsel as required was unjustifiable, that she was sorry for what she did, and that she would work to make sure that no prosecutor did what she had done, then I would have to reevaluate my views of her.
I swear she's done that. Maybe not so explicitly. But she has said mistakes were made under her watch and she has supported legislation that would stop some of those mistakes from happening again.
 

once_upon

Voter
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16,208
This nonsense about needing results immediately on election day is nonsense.
IIRC from my American History class a billion years ago, the reason the electoral college meets in December is because it takes/took so long to tabulate results from the general election.

Someone needs to call bullsh+t on him and tell him how the process really works.

First general vote, one month later electoral college vote and six weeks later inauguration.
 
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