The Race for the 2020 POTUS elections

BlueRidge

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I beg to differ, the country is in a different place than it was prior to the 2016. As I've said before I don't believe one can effectively fight fascism and the current oligarchy with centrist politicians.
No you can't and you also can't fight them most effectively being led by an elderly man who is blind to sexism.

What I don't understand and it really gives me pause about the new left is why this is ignored with Bernie.

Is sexism NOT an issue of any concern to this new left?
 

ballettmaus

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Many of those women are left leaning progressives, not moderates or centrists.
I'm not sure why that matters. Politics is still a male dominated world. You don't think that women were inspired by the fact that another woman came this close to being elected to the highest office in the country because they are more progressive than she was? (And while her platform wasn't as left as Sanders', it was reported during or shortly after the GE that it was the most left of a Democrat to date).


Her campaign lost to the worst candidate in the history of the USA.
No, she didn't. She lost to Trump, social media disinformation campaigns, the MSM, sexism and Comey. And despite all that, she still got 3 million more votes than Trump. Like her or not, she was highly popular as Senator and Sec of State and only got this unpopular once she announced her campaign and the MSM started asking the likeability question and the email thing started (and didn't end).


ETA: For the sake of Argument, if Hillary was really such a bad candidate as I understand the above quote to be impying, what would that say about Sanders who lost to her?
 
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topaz

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No you can't and you also can't fight them most effectively being led by an elderly man who is blind to sexism.

What I don't understand and it really gives me pause about the new left is why this is ignored with Bernie.

Is sexism NOT an issue of any concern to this new left?

What makes you think the "new left" ignores this? Of course it is and you know it. You projecting your ideas on the socialist/left male dominated situations you witnessed and experienced.

And you know he is not ignoring it. He has and continues to address it; you just believe it.
Women can be sexist too.

Please do not go there, please don't.

I could mention a heck of a lot things that the left is working on. I could mention many things that the centrists/moderate seem to ignore or lack the voice to acknowledge. Heck they aren't even attempting to acknowledge some things.
 
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topaz

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I'm not sure why that matters. Politics is still a male dominated world. You don't think that women were inspired by the fact that another woman came this close to being elected to the highest office in the country because they are more progressive than she was? (And while her platform wasn't as left as Sanders', it was reported during or shortly after the GE that it was the most left of a Democrat to date).




No, she didn't. She lost to Trump, social media disinformation campaigns, the MSM, sexism and Comey. And despite all that, she still got 3 million more votes than Trump. Like her or not, she was highly popular as Senator and Sec of State and only got this unpopular once she announced her campaign and the MSM started asking the likeability question and the email thing started (and didn't end).


ETA: For the sake of Argument, if Hillary was really such a bad candidate as I understand the above quote to be impying, what would that say about Sanders who lost to her?

Okay. Girl bye
 

ballettmaus

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Oh, so that's why losing to Trump disqualifies Clinton from running again but losing to her doesn't disqualify Sanders from doing the same. Thanks for the information.


ETA: I don't assume that you're disputing that the social media disinformation campaigns happened. They are fact.
Obviously, I can't link to it but there's a whole book that looks at Comey and the letter and how it affected poll numbers and was reported on in the media. And that it happened is also fact.
We're still seeing sexism, so I don't suppose that you would dispute that Clinton faced it.
Her approval numbers as Senator and Secretary of State don't lie.
Here are three links that support what I said about the MSM https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...ump-campaign-coverage/?utm_term=.5209a48b4015
http://www.womensmediacenter.com/news-features/harvard-study-documents-anti-clinton-media-bias
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...linton-email-coverage/?utm_term=.4e9fe5c656d4


You may not agree that the combined total of what Clinton was up against cost her the election but fact is, she was up against it. And future candidates will also be up against it, so I don't think that dismissing any of it as relevant/not even considering that this might have played a role is not doing democracy any favors.
 
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BlueRidge

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Women can be sexist too.
Dismissing concerns about mistreatment of women this way is disturbing to me.

The left has problems of all sorts but why should we ignore this one? Or more to the point why do Bernie's supporters just brush it off?

This isn't about discrediting socialist ideas. That's a different argument entirely. And obviously there are women like AOC who have quickly become leading socialists. But I think the deferring to an old man who ran a campaign rife with sexism is going to harm the cause of the socialists. A lot. Bring on the younger leaders, the ones who understand intersectionality.

It is mind-boggling that this movement that appears to have so much youthful forward looking energy is enthralled to a man who is a throw back to the 1970s. Laud his past leadership and move on.
 

clairecloutier

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BlueRidge

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@BlueRidge Out of curiosity, what do you want to see Sanders do to make up for some of the problems w/ his campaign in 2016? Or do you just want people not to support him because of that?
I think the way he could demonstrate his concern for it is not to run.

If his supporters are fine with "I'll do better this time" then there's not much I can say. I'm not a supporter and wouldn't be even if he hadn't run that campaign so I'm not going to concern troll him and talk about what he could do to prove he's now concerned with the issues he didn't notice in 2016.

Sanders also was more than ready to throw women's reproductive rights under the bus for political purposes if you recall when he wanted to have the Democratic Party support anti-abortion candidates if they were good on his issues.

I think that Sanders' candidacy is a step backward for women.
 

olympic

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I have wrestled with my Anti-Bernie feelings and couldn't quite put my finger on the cause of my revulsion for him. It occurred to me that a lot of it has to do w/ his followers, very quick to believe that there is a big conspiracy out there against their man, and so ironic that this following kinda sounds like the followers of guess who in the WH.

I really hope he is not the nominee. I will enjoy though getting those 'GOTV' calls in 2020 if he is :EVILLE:
 

BlueRidge

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ETA: Just read an interesting opinion piece in Politico about the electoral history of Presidential challengers and what it means for the Dem nomination: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/02/20/how-trump-could-win-2020-225165
Good argument against Biden being the nominee. I'm not sure anyone else who is or may be running fits the "bad" candidate frame of this article?

I only skimmed the article. :shuffle: I don't need to relive my worst nightmares. :yikes: Mondale, Dukakis, Kerry. Funny they didn't mention Gore? I think his situation was similar. Guys who would have been good presidents, but weren't good candidates.

I don't know if Biden would lose to Trump, I kind of think he would win, but I think he would be a disaster for the Democratic Party by taking it backwards.
 

topaz

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Dismissing concerns about mistreatment of women this way is disturbing to me.

The left has problems of all sorts but why should we ignore this one? Or more to the point why do Bernie's supporters just brush it off?

This isn't about discrediting socialist ideas. That's a different argument entirely. And obviously there are women like AOC who have quickly become leading socialists. But I think the deferring to an old man who ran a campaign rife with sexism is going to harm the cause of the socialists. A lot. Bring on the younger leaders, the ones who understand intersectionality.

It is mind-boggling that this movement that appears to have so much youthful forward looking energy is enthralled to a man who is a throw back to the 1970s. Laud his past leadership and move on.
I'll respond to your entire post instead of you responding to one sentence of mine.

You mention the left has issues and no one is ignoring them nor dismissing them. However, for you it seems that by supporting him they are ignoring this. That's why there are several women and men of the "new left"(your words) that are addressing these concerns along with the word intersectionality.

Since you're part of the left

You mention intersectionality and within the same sentence as "throw back to the 1970s" yet the center/moderates have historically never even mentioned nor talked about intersectionality until a few years. Also, it is still not talked about very much. When I brought up the problems that HRC ,other centrist dems and white feminists had with black feminism historically; Along with the concept of intersectionality a few years ago it wasn't addressed.
 

BlueRidge

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I'm not arguing anything about centrists or HRC. :confused:

ETA: I'm happy to go back to yelling about Amy Klobuchar's environmental policy though. Or how appalling the idea of Biden being the nominee is.
 
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topaz

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As of yesterday, Bernie Sanders hired Faiz Shakir as his campaign manager. He will be first muslim American to head a major presidential campaign. Also, Faiz mentioned he will step down from his role as national political director of ALCU.

This is a really good pick as Faiz has the progressive chops and relationships within the democratic party that should allow him to manage Bernie's campaign effectively.
 

topaz

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I'm not arguing anything about centrists or HRC. :confused:

ETA: I'm happy to go back to yelling about Amy Klobuchar's environmental policy though. Or how appalling the idea of Biden being the nominee is.
That was my point BR. You want the new left to address the issues you see with Bernie's sexism but you're not asking the same of the centrists.

Also, we both can yell at Amy K's lack of environmental policy and the lack younger "left" candidates. :)
 

ilovepaydays

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I don't get it. It feels like a cult of personality to me at this point.
The blind devotion that too many people have to politicians has always been scary to me.
—————————————

I’m not surprised that Sanders is running again, but the reaction so far is pretty telling. We (probably) don’t even have half the Democratic primary field declares yet and I feel like this will probably be the ugliest Democratic primary ever. :(

I can’t even imagine what the debates are going to be like.......
 

BlueRidge

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There are forces out there trying to make it so:

‘Sustained and ongoing’ disinformation assault targets Dem presidential candidates
A coordinated barrage of social media attacks suggests the involvement of foreign state actors. (Politico)


We need to be aware of this but its also a double-edged sword. I've already seen people assume that social media comments they don't like must be "Russian bots" so people need to be very careful in general, not to accept things that fit their biases too quickly, nor to reject things they don't like as just disinformation.

A wide-ranging disinformation campaign aimed at Democratic 2020 candidates is already under way on social media, with signs that foreign state actors are driving at least some of the activity.


The main targets appear to be Sen. Kamala Harris (D-Calif.), Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.), former Rep. Beto O’Rourke (D-Texas) and Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), four of the most prominent announced or prospective candidates for president.

A POLITICO review of recent data extracted from Twitter and from other platforms, as well as interviews with data scientists and digital campaign strategists, suggests that the goal of the coordinated barrage appears to be undermining the nascent candidacies through the dissemination of memes, hashtags, misinformation, and distortions of their positions. But the divisive nature of many of the posts also hint at a broader effort to sow discord and chaos within the Democratic presidential primary.
 

rfisher

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Warren wasn't technically wrong. There are many people who have NA ancestry who aren't officially recognized as such by the current "recognized" tribal affiliates. The problem is only certain tribes were recognized by the US government. Many weren't and many within the tribes never enrolled for various reasons. This has always been an issue for those of Cherokee descent. Some stayed behind in North Carolina during the forced removal of tribal lands and were, therefore, never officially recognized. There is a subset located in NW Arkansas who have been trying to obtain official recognition for years. There were other tribes who did not get enrolled. So, family oral traditions might well be true, but if your ancestors were never on the tribal rolls, they don't officially exist. Moreover, each tribal entity determines how ancestry is determined: 1/32 (a great-great-great grandparent) in some instances. This often comes down to money and benefits which may be denied to someone with much closer genetic ties.

This argument came up in my own family recently when one brother did a pretty thorough research into our father's line of descent showing the male line came from Germany in the early 19th century. My other brother was angry because he was sure there was a recent Cherokee (the default ancestor if you're from the South). There is no evidence to support that, but it is something he believed and told people for years (no idea where he got the idea, but he did). So, I'm willing to cut Warren some slack here. I know a lot of people who think they have NA ancestry because it is somehow romantic. Yet, not a one have ever been to a NA reservation and seen how those who are much closer to source live. The browner the skin, the less likely white people want to claim a relationship. This is old racial bias and it occurs in recognized tribes at the highest levels as well as among non-NA claiming whites.
 

PrincessLeppard

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Sanders also was more than ready to throw women's reproductive rights under the bus for political purposes if you recall when he wanted to have the Democratic Party support anti-abortion candidates if they were good on his issues.

I think that Sanders' candidacy is a step backward for women.
Are you talking about the Omaha mayoral race and how that got blown out of proportion and caused a shit show here? Bernie came in and spoke for Heath Mello, the Democratic candidate running for mayor. Mello did have problematic votes on abortion, but as a mayor, that wasn't an issue. But people lost their shit and Mello went from a probable win to a sure loss and now we have a conservative Republican mayor. Which of course is so much better?

That said, I like Bernie, but I wish he wasn't running this time.
 

BlueRidge

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Are you talking about the Omaha mayoral race and how that got blown out of proportion and caused a shit show here? Bernie came in and spoke for Heath Mello, the Democratic candidate running for mayor. Mello did have problematic votes on abortion, but as a mayor, that wasn't an issue. But people lost their shit and Mello went from a probable win to a sure loss and now we have a conservative Republican mayor. Which of course is so much better?

That said, I like Bernie, but I wish he wasn't running this time.
I can't answer you because I said I wasn't going to talk about ******. I'm going to stick to that.
 

BlueRidge

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Another potential candidate testing the waters is Jay Inslee, Governor of Washington.

Probably because I'm tired of the onslaught of candidates (my sister calls this the Democratic Party clown car :shuffle: ), I'm not feeling friendly toward him. I mean great he's going to make climate change his top issue, but he couldn't get his carbon tax passed by his voters so I'd like to hear that he has plans to address climate change and a political strategy to get it done rather than just that he has anointed himself the savior who will talk most about it. :shuffle:

I admit I know nothing about him, maybe he's good. But also saying of Donald Trump "He’s a blip in history we need to get over, and quickly.” to me signals a failure to understand and take seriously the political processes that got as to a point where Donald Trump could become president.

Jay Inslee, potential 2020 contender, on climate: 'We need to blow the bugle' (The Guardian)

Next please.
 

ballettmaus

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We need to be aware of this but its also a double-edged sword. I've already seen people assume that social media comments they don't like must be "Russian bots" so people need to be very careful in general, not to accept things that fit their biases too quickly, nor to reject things they don't like as just disinformation.
Is it a double-edged sword or part of the strategy? Ultimately, it divides even further because voters are further pushed into their corners.
 

Artistic Skaters

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The NYT & WP are reporting today that Sanders has now raised $6 million in the last 24 hrs. Not my first choice, but he certainly is to many voters.

I don't need a Green New Deal litmus test for something I consider a manifesto anyway. I'm voting for whoever runs against Trump, excluding Howard Schultz & other third party/independent candidates who can't possibly win. This is the level of desperation I feel for America today.

If Trump decides not to run (or better yet goes off to jail) in the meantime, then I will happily drill down more on specific issues & support a more distinctive choice.
 

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