The Race for the 2020 POTUS elections

VGThuy

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But the thing it is women who are reporting it. It seems they still feel something about it. Should we dismiss them because it might undermine his campaign? That’s what I’m wondering about? And just because it’s spreading by “Bernie bots” don’t make it illegitimate.
 

BlueRidge

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But the thing it is women who are reporting it. It seems they still feel something about it. Should we dismiss them because it might undermine his campaign? That’s what I’m wondering about? And just because it’s spreading by “Bernie bots” don’t make it illegitimate.
What do you think we should do? Why don't you think the previous dealing with it was enough?

Do you think Biden should be forced out of the race?

To me, this is pretty much the same thing as the people who endlessly brought up Elizabeth Warren's claim of native American ancestry after it had been dealt with and dealt with and dealt with.

If we go over this Biden thing again and he's still in the race, and its brought up again do we go over it and over it again?

For me, it was addressed. Women were heard.

I think it is reasonable to move on in this case without there being any reasonable accusation that we are all just not listening and refusing to deal with it. I think that it is the latter that is unreasonable given what has happened.
 

VGThuy

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I don't think I'm trolling since it seems the women are still telling their stories. The soundcloud link I provided was just released recently and it was the first time she told her entire story. I think pointing it out is important because it is her story about the person who will be the Dem candidate and it's a position our party takes very seriously. But since I'm coming off as a troll, I'll just bow out of the discussion.
 

BlueRidge

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I don't think I'm trolling since it seems the women are still telling their stories. The soundcloud link I provided was just released recently and it was the first time she told her entire story. I think pointing it out is important because it is her story about the person who will be the Dem candidate and it's a position our party takes very seriously. But since I'm coming off as a troll, I'll just bow out of the discussion.
I'd rather hear what you think. What do you think should happen here?

How would you like to see this play out?

I find the demands of the Me Too movement very difficult as well as very important. I'm not convinced that every situation has to play out exactly the same way though and I don't want to dismiss anyone person's voice and experience but on the other hand what is to be done? Is one woman's need to express her experience of discomfort after a man's behavior has already been addressed extensively, mean that all other considerations should be dropped and there can be no other way of dealing with it?

Again I feel that Biden was not just allowed to get by without confronting this. I'm sorry someone didn't get her chance to speak during that time but I'm not sure whether we now have to all start all over again and reassess everything when the rest of us and the public and Biden did address it previously. I think this may be an unreasonable demand based on the perfect is the enemy of the good thinking.

We cannot be perfect because we are human; demanding that we be ends up with those who don't care to even be good winning. Time and again.
 
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MacMadame

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I think this may be an unreasonable demand based on the perfect is the enemy of the good thinking.
I think her POV is: I got heard but I didn't like the outcome. So I'll keep bringing it up.

People do this all the time at work. We have a big discussion, we make a decision, someone doesn't like the decision so brings it up constantly. So we discuss it again. And again.

My rule of thumb is: I'm not discussing it again unless there is new information. So I asked (and didn't get an answer): is there a significant new piece of info that has been added? Did Biden do more than stand too close and touch her in a way that made her uncomfortable?
 

Wyliefan

Trying to appease the skategods
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We're being played here and it will happen again and again over the months, the "if you aren't perfect" how can you say anything about others attempt to mess with people's heads.
I'm not being one-sided here. All movements and all parties should consistently police their own ranks. ALL. Instead all we get is endless rounds of finger-pointing and "they're worse than we are!" and more and more tribalism. It has not led us to a good place.
 

Vash01

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We are at a critical point. We are facing four more years of Trump. Should we dismiss a democratic candidate for one flaw that is nowhere close to what Trump is likely to do if he is re-elected? The democrat needs all of our support at this time, unless you are trying to push Your candidate. May be some of you are. Your candidate is not perfect either but if he is the democratic nominee, I will vote for him, only to avoid 4 more years of Trump.

We must support the democratic nominee, like him or not. Many people didn’t vote for Hillary in 2016 because “I just don’t like her”, and the result was the nightmare - Donald Trump.

I am a woman who supports the MeToo movement, but to me this is not the time for finding faults in Biden’s past behavior. Some people are more touchy, and he has acknowledged it and he has offered to change his behavior. It is enough for me.

Sometimes men do things that make me uncomfortable, e.g. touching, or making a remark, but that does not make it an assault. No one is perfect. If you want perfection, nobody will qualify. We have someone who is 99 percent imperfect that running and ruining our country. The choice is between him and someone who has a few flaws, like most of us do.

This is the time for democrats and independents (and moderate Republicans) to unite and defeat Trump. It will be the first step toward any progress. Get Trump elected by not supporting the democrat, and pay the price for it.
 

BlueRidge

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I'm not being one-sided here. All movements and all parties should consistently police their own ranks. ALL. Instead all we get is endless rounds of finger-pointing and "they're worse than we are!" and more and more tribalism. It has not led us to a good place.
I definitely was not directing what you quoted from me at you. I don't think you are being one-sided.

I only disagreed with when you seemed to saying idea that Democrats haven't been dealing with problems in their ranks on this. I feel they have come a long way since their inexcusable acceptance of Bill Clinton's sexual predator behavior. [this needs editing but I'm too exhausted so I hope its clear without it]

ETA: I admit I am exhausted. I can't deal with much more and having to re-open the case regarding Biden is more than I can take. And I feel that @VGThuy in particular holds Democrats to such a standard that no one could possibly be good enough and our only choice is to be acknowledge our utter failing and take our punishment by acknowledging how utterly failed we are and give up. I mean, I think the over the top critical attitude toward candidates is what ended us up with Biden rather than others who were better but so flawed that we couldn't support them, so people didn't support them, and those less concerned about perfection chose Biden.
 
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BlueRidge

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I wasn't just thinking of Clinton. Or of sexual assault, for that matter.
If you were talking about things other than sexual harassment/assault/abuse then I didn't understand you because that's what I thought you were talking about.
 

Wyliefan

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Well, that's one of the things. Just not the only one. But I'm exhausted too, and I still have work to finish and freelance work to start, so maybe I'd better just leave it there for now. The principle of the thing is what's important: All parties need to learn to set high standards and hold their leaders to them, or a downward spiral starts. And you end up having to deal with this crap at the moment where it's very important that your candidate unite people.
 

BlueRidge

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Well, that's one of the things. Just not the only one. But I'm exhausted too, and I still have work to finish and freelance work to start, so maybe I'd better just leave it there for now. The principle of the thing is what's important: All parties need to learn to set high standards and hold their leaders to them, or a downward spiral starts.
I agree.

But I just am confused because we were talking about Biden and good lord I just don't know what to do if we are to believe he is not up to the standards we should hold. I just don't.

Other then weep. And I don't think that will help.
 

BlueRidge

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I just wish people would say if they think that Biden should not be the candidate. And if so what should we do then?

Is Biden so flawed that he should be not be nominated? Did we fail by not removing him last year? What are we supposed to do here? I didn't support him, I supported about six other candidates until we were down to just three or so and I still supported a different horribly flawed candidate. But the voters still chose Biden. Did I fail in some way and allow this to happen? Should democracy not count in this? I don't think he is that bad and that he fails to meet a reasonable standard. And the party found him to be the one candidate it could (mostly) agree on?

I just don't know what people want.
 

snoopy

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11,893
I think there is such a thing as outrage fatigue. I think that’s part of what got us trump. As a backlash to all the lecturing. Most of us just can’t be outraged over every single slight or misstep, perceived or real.
 

MacMadame

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There is definitely Outrage Fatigue. And then people cry "Hypocrite!" But I really truly can't get publicly outraged about everything.
 

Vagabond

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The problem here isn't outrage fatigue; it's selective outrage -- criticizing Biden and the Democratic Party but not Trump or the Republicans. And that gets me outraged. :angryfire
 

VALuvsMKwan

Wandering Goy
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The problem here isn't outrage fatigue; it's selective outrage -- criticizing Biden and the Democratic Party but not Trump or the Republicans. And that gets me outraged. :angryfire
So what do you suggest the solution should be to satisfy your outrage? Serious question.
 

caseyedwards

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Yeah I mean democrats chose biden. It’s Biden or no one. Mainly african Americans and suburban women chose Biden. No one else seemed more likely to beat trump than than a man With a long and varied record that includes major and big support of harsh prison sentences, drug war, Iraq war but also gun control and violence against women act and such and such
 

skatesindreams

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Are the only candidates who are now worthy of consideration/election persons (of either gender) who present evidence of lifelong celibacy?
Impossible and ridiculous...
 

BlueRidge

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I don't really think that is the issue here. I think it was legitimate for Joe Biden's propensity to touch women in ways that made them uncomfortable to be discussed, aired, to listen to the women, and to demand that he acknowledge that his behavior was not acceptable and for him to apologize. Those things happened.

The question is what the people who want to re-assess it because there is another woman who wants to speak about a similar experience--what do they want? Do they just want her voice heard? Well, yes we hear her. And it was bad behavior on Biden's part.

How much more discussion and attention do people think it needs? Are we failing to live up to an acceptable standard and just as bad as "the other side" if we continue support Joe Biden?

And if so, what should we do? What is the alternative now? Is this just about casting aspersions on the Democratic Party about this, or is there a serious concern and belief something should be done?

My opinion is that Joe Biden is okay. Supporting him is not following the Republicans down the rat hole of allowing standards to be breached. But if someone is arguing otherwise, I would like to consider the argument. I can't if it isn't spoken.
 

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