The Race for the 2020 POTUS elections

BlueRidge

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I apologize if I made you feel that way. I will stop arguing now. I was just trying to bring up why they would have done that but obviously an actual queer person who agreed with their actions should have been the one to do that instead of me since I have no right to speak on it. I guess I thought since they brought up race, I could relate to that and from what I had learned from many of my clients and friends/colleafues who are queer POC, but I am not them so it was wrong of me to do so.
No it isn't wrong of you to speak, and I asked you to speak more, so no apology needed.

Just wanted to have a feeling of a little more being listened to in this.

But don't say less, its very valuable to me to hear what you say and actually the post where you said, "They are using Pete’s profile to publicize issues impacting vulnerable LGBTQ communities." finally gave me a better understanding of what the protesters were about and may have accomplished.
 

el henry

#WeAllWeGot #WeAllWeNeed
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1,240
Yes, every candidate milks things that they are. Yang has certainly milked his Asian-Americanness and some Asian-Ams have criticized him for playing into stereotypes like the opposite of Trump is an Asian man who likes math.
but how has Pete milked anything? Truly???

He has said who he is. Milking is a misrepresentation from folks who don’t like him and whom he could never persuade, absent abandoning his own core beliefs. Do they want that kind of candidate?

I am crying because protestors who can’t see the forest for the trees will get us four more years of Donald J. Trump:wuzrobbed This is their way of bringing visibility to their cause? I don’t care about Pete, I care about folks who evidently don’t care about the general election enough to see how they are hurting themselves.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
30,539
No it isn't wrong of you to speak, and I asked you to speak more, so no apology needed.

Just wanted to have a feeling of a little more being listened to in this.

But don't say less, its very valuable to me to hear what you say and actually the post where you said, "They are using Pete’s profile to publicize issues impacting vulnerable LGBTQ communities." finally gave me a better understanding of what the protesters were about and may have accomplished.
Thank you. The last thing I wanted to do was to erase you or drown you out or anything. I think I need to hear what you had to say and I wanted to hear your and any other LGBTQ FSUers take more than anyone’s else’s. I still think I did overstep with you though and you were right to check me.
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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Thank you. The last thing I wanted to do was to erase you or drown you out or anything. I think I need to hear what you had to say and I wanted to hear your and any other LGBTQ FSUers take more than anyone’s else’s. I still think I did overstep with you though and you were right to check me.
Thank you.

As I say, I don't usually feel that way, and especially when you are talking about the experiences of people you know who are people of color who are LGBT and particularly about trans issues. I am a bit like Pete in being a privileged white lesbian so my voice is only from that perspective.
 

VGThuy

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30,539
but how has Pete milked anything? Truly???

He has said who he is. Milking is a misrepresentation from folks who don’t like him and whom he could never persuade, absent abandoning his own core beliefs. Do they want that kind of candidate?

I am crying because protestors who can’t see the forest for the trees will get us four more years of Donald J. Trump:wuzrobbed This is their way of bringing visibility to their cause? I don’t care about Pete, I care about folks who evidently don’t care about the general election enough to see how they are hurting themselves.
I do find it interesting that if we choose someone too progressive then it’s our fault for not appealing to the moderates and soft Republicans who would be willing to give us Trump because they don’t like Warren or anybody too far left, but if we choose a moderate who fails to garner support of the progressive voters then it’s the voters’ fault for “not seeing the forest for the trees“. I’m just wondering why aren’t we also blaming the voters in swing states for failing to see the forest for the trees when they choose to vote for Trump or to abstain? Both voter bases are voting their conscience in those cases.
 

BlueRidge

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How about we go on the assumption for a while that however this nomination process turns out we won't end up having to figure out who to blame at all because we will have defeated Trump! :saint:
 

el henry

#WeAllWeGot #WeAllWeNeed
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1,240
I do find it interesting that if we choose someone too progressive then it’s our fault for not appealing to the moderates and soft Republicans who would be willing to give us Trump because they don’t like Warren or anybody too far left, but if we choose a moderate who fails to garner support of the progressive voters then it’s the voters’ fault for “not seeing the forest for the trees“. I’m just wondering why aren’t we also blaming the voters in swing states for failing to see the forest for the trees when they choose to vote for Trump or to abstain? Both voter bases are voting their conscience in those cases.
I think I understand, and I do not expect “progressives“ (only in quotes because of my own definition, not as a perjorative) to abandon their beliefs at all. They can tell me the system needs changing, Bernie is the man to fix it, he’s true to his beliefs, and I am being obtuse by not understanding that:)

I don‘t care about soft Republicans, I care about independents and Democrats like me.

how does interrupting and heckling another candidate help their cause? How does it help persuade Democrats on the fence that Bernie represents them? Today’s Twitter attack is evidently Pete works for the CIA? I’ll go back to my old analogy, it’s like a Fanyu trying to convince me Yuzu is great by calling Interpol.

I’ve said more than once Bernie is light years ahead of Trump, and that’s even accepting I don’t like Bernie. Where is the equal acknowledgement that Pete is light years ahead of Trump?

thats the kumbaya moment I want.:cheer2:
 
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BlueRidge

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Wait, I missed that. There are people spreading that Buttigieg is in the CIA today? What else are they saying?
A quick google turns up this article in Foreign Policy

A left-wing website, the Grayzone, has spearheaded the more tenuous theorizing around Buttigieg’s supposed CIA ties. A series of articles, which concluded the national security regime had “groomed” Buttigieg for power and which draw shaky ties between Buttigieg and the CIA, have racked up thousands of shares, especially from pro-Sanders Facebook pages. (The Grayzone notes that it does not directly allege Buttigieg is himself a CIA asset, but it does plenty to suggest it.)
No, Pete Buttigieg Is Not a CIA Asset
 

el henry

#WeAllWeGot #WeAllWeNeed
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Wait, I missed that. There are people spreading that Buttigieg is in the CIA today? What else are they saying?

I apologize I can't link (usually I like to back up my assertions) on the tablet and giving fluids to my cat.:D

I saw them in replies, and there was more than one, to the story that Amy and Tom Steyer could not say who the President of Mexico was (Telemundo town hall) but Pete could. Many replies "Of course he can, he's in the CIA". More than one, two or three.

Whether the Twitterers were bots or real people, I cannot say.
 

BlueRidge

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Here's more from the Foreign Policy article:

It was likely Chapo Trap House—a very popular political comedy podcast, boasting over 35,000 paid subscribers and hundreds of thousands of listeners per episode, that is fanatically supportive of Sanders—that got #CIAPete trending on twitter. On the first episode of the podcast after the delayed Iowa results were reported, one co-host, Will Menaker, concluded that the caucuses “had probably done more to destroy the legitimacy of our democratic process than almost anything that happened in American history.” Other hosts chimed in with their agreement.

...Menaker agreed. “Pete Buttigieg literally did the Juan Guaidó playbook. If you don’t think this guy is CIA-affiliated by now, I don’t know what to tell you. This is straight out of the McKinsey-CIA election-stealing rat****ing playbook. He declared himself the victor exactly like Juan Guaidó did with no support or evidence for it.”
This is extraordinarily vile stuff and very destructive.
 

Aerobicidal

Inspired by Selections
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10,167
These are my (long and probably verbose) thoughts on Buttigieg. I haven't posted in PI in a very long time, and it's completely understandable to me why anyone would ignore and/or dislike this post.

In a day when Pete Buttigieg was the target of homophobic bullshit from Rush Limbaugh as well as protests from queer activists in San Francisco, I'm thinking about how his candidacy illustrates a lot of issues regarding public figures who are out.

Pete represents what I think of as the Neil Patrick Harris model of queerness--he's very far from the margins of the way people see gay identity; or, in other words, he's as "normal" as it is possible for a gay man to be ("normal" obviously being a problematic concept tied to ideology, here).

I don't know if Harris and Buttigieg are putting on a strategic performance (intentionally or not) of their sexuality in order to be successful in the various things they do. Actually, I don't think it matters, because queer people can perform their sexuality (or choose not to) however they want to. We can have NPH and then also RuPaul and Johnny Weir and Christian Siriano.

I think it's problematic that some of these people are criticized for being "too gay" or "not gay enough." And it's problematic that it's (often, not always) harder for queer people to be successful if they don't present themselves in an assimilationist manner. And it's problematic that queer kids see these public figures and think they either need to model the ways they (those queer kids) present themselves as NPH gay or Christian Siriano gay. And hopefully, unlike I did, queer kids today are able to learn that you can be queer however you want to and if anyone judges or pressures you suggesting that's not okay, they're ****ed up and don't deserve your time.

It's also problematic that we probably couldn't have a gay presidential candidate taken seriously who didn't fit the Harris/Buttigieg model. At least not yet. And it's possible Buttigieg is very minimally responsible for that, but it would be hard to prove. And of course he's extremely privileged, and obviously the experiences of the most marginalized parts of the queer community are unlikely to resonate with him, but that's also not his fault.

However, it IS his fault that his policies are going to continue to marginalize already disadvantaged groups, including queer communities, both directly and through intersectional factors. And it's his fault that his personal and political history reflects an attitude toward black Americans that I believe should be unacceptable for a presidential candidate to have.

This is why I am not going to vote for him in the primary. And if straight, white, privileged Buttigieg supporters accuse me of homophobia (which I realize is highly unlikely), I will categorize them with all the other misplaced and condescending wannabe allies I have encountered over the years.
 

el henry

#WeAllWeGot #WeAllWeNeed
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Thank you for sharing @Aerobicidal.

my only response is to the comments regarding Pete”s interactions with the marginalized communities, which I have most commonly seen rely on misrepresentations of Pete’s mayoral policies and from folks who hold grudges in South Bend.

I find very interesting the experiences of women of color who support Pete, who feel as though the patriarchal political reporting diminishes them and makes them invisible. And of course, my reading of his personal attitudes and political proposals is that they provide support for marginalized communities in a way that Bernie, in particular, never could and never will. but that is my reading, others can differ.

but in any event, I understand from the Book of the Face that Ivana may return. One thing we all can agree on as a good proppsal :)
 

Aerobicidal

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Thank you for sharing @Aerobicidal.

my only response is to the comments regarding Pete”s interactions with the marginalized communities, which I have most commonly seen rely on misrepresentations of Pete’s mayoral policies and from folks who hold grudges in South Bend.

I find very interesting the experiences of women of color who support Pete, who feel as though the patriarchal political reporting diminishes them and makes them invisible. And of course, my reading of his personal attitudes and political proposals is that they provide support for marginalized communities in a way that Bernie, in particular, never could and never will. but that is my reading, others can differ.

but in any event, I understand from the Book of the Face that Ivana may return. One thing we all can agree on as a good proppsal :)
Did I misrepresent his policies? Did I cite patriarchal reporting? Did I say anything about Bernie?

I'm glad you like Ivana, but your response has absolutely nothing to do with the substance of what I said. Buttigieg's policy history on crime, college debt, housing, police brutality, and a variety of other things is really problematic to me. I'm sure there are women of color who support him, but they can speak for themselves and his overall support among racial minorities is extremely small. If we're going to use random anecdotal evidence about women of color, the main organizer of the LGBTQAI+ group that protested Buttigieg in San Francisco today was also black.
 

Vagabond

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14,478
I'm interested in what he needs to change according to those folks. I really haven't heard much on his stances on LGBT issues.
From the article posted above, it seems that they'd be a lot happier if he changed his sexuality. 🤷‍♂️

In other words, the Buttigieg supporter who called them homophobes actually had a valid point. :shuffle:
 

el henry

#WeAllWeGot #WeAllWeNeed
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Did I misrepresent his policies? Did I cite patriarchal reporting? Did I say anything about Bernie?

I'm glad you like Ivana, but your response has absolutely nothing to do with the substance of what I said. Buttigieg's policy history on crime, college debt, housing, police brutality, and a variety of other things is really problematic to me. I'm sure there are women of color who support him, but they can speak for themselves and his overall support among racial minorities is extremely small. If we're going to use random anecdotal evidence about women of color, the main organizer of the LGBTQAI+ group that protested Buttigieg in San Francisco today was also black.
wow, I think it did, and I’m not sure what I said to generate such a response.:confused:

but let me put it another way. Pete’s position on college debt is reasonable, workable and fair to students. The police in South Bend were no more “brutal” under Pete’s mayoralty than any other mayor of South Bend, and in fact, police ”brutality” lessened. So any reliance on that, in my view, is reliance on a misrepresentation. His policies, to the extent that a Presidential candidate has policies on crime, I agree with, and I believe will assist marginalized communities.

I use Bernie because he is now called the front runner for “progressive” causes (I have routinely refused to cede that word:D), but I could just as easily use Liz, although I like her policies, and her supporters, more than Bernie’s. ( in my personal life and elsewhere online, not necessarily here).

I think Democrats protesting at other Democrats‘ events are acting like five year olds and I pay them as much heed as I would five year olds. (That is jumping off because protesters were mentioned and not because you said anything to the contrary). They should save that kind of vitriol for the true enemy, and it ain’t Pete, and it ain’t Bernie, or anyone else running for the Democratic nomination.

so hopefully that is clearer:)
 
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AliasJohnDoe

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the fact that Bernie Bros or others cite a tiny part of one rally, where they act like toddlers, as proof of their thesis tells me far more about them, and their inability to get beyond their preconceptions, than it does about Pete. Acting like five year olds at other candidates‘ events is extraordinarily persuasive. :shuffle:Tell me why you love your guy, and why I should love him too.
I have a feeling the protesters were Bernie lgbtq people. I have gay friends who support Bernie and have been attacking Pete relentlessly on FB since he's been so close to him in IA and NH.
 

snoopy

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I don’t think people protesting Buttigieg for not being progressive enough really harms Buttigieg. It’s like if I went to a Bernie rally and protested because he isn’t moderate enough. :lol: I could but it’s kinda duh. The people that like Pete like him for being moderate and the people that like Bernie like him for being progressive.

And if we have a moderate in the general that people protest for not being progressive enough, er, that’s probably not harmful either. :saint:
 

BlueRidge

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And if we have a moderate in the general that people protest for not being progressive enough, er, that’s probably not harmful either.
Good luck winning with an alienated left.

I may start sounding like a programmed bot here but the moderates can't win without the progressives, and the progressives can't win without the moderates. If a candidate alienates the moderates and enough of them stay home or cast their vote for a hatemongering authoritarian-wannabe, we lose. If a candidate alienates the left and enough of them stay home or cast their vote for some crackpot candidate who insists it doesn't make a difference whether we have a Democrat or a hatemongering authoritairan-wannabe, we lose.

And the time for us to start building bridges is now. And that's on all of us. Those who think that by bringing down a candidate who might be the nominee they are going to be better off in the long run, be it people protesting Pete or people railing that Bernie is as bad as Maduro, are making a misjudgement IMO.

Only a united non-Trump majority can end Trump's presidency. The consequences of his presidency continuing are more dire than any thing any of the Democratic candidates can bring.

aside-- @Aerobicidal glad to see you here! I hope you will continue to post in PI.
 

topaz

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#MYBLOOMBERGSTORY is trending on Twitter. The tweets are disturbing. The fact that stop and frisk happened to MILLIONS of POC I feel is being marginalized.
 

Vagabond

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When the race began, most of the campaign signs and bumper stickers I saw around town were for Sanders. There were quite a few for Buttigieg, and some for Warren, and a very small number for Harris. Recently, I have been seeing new signs and bumper stickers for Klobuchar, Steyer, and Bloomberg. Overall, the leader is still Sanders, with Buttigieg second as far as I can tell.

There is not a Trump sign or bumper sticker to be seen, but then, this is San Francisco.

What is everyone else's experience?
 
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BittyBug

Wishing it weren't so
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@topaz I think Bloomberg's history with stop and frisk is going to be front and center over the next few weeks, and certainly at the next debate. I think every pundit I've listened to over the past week has brought this up, and many of the people I follow on Twitter (admittedly POC) are discussing the issue. I just think that no one was really paying attention to Bloomberg until recently because he was no where in the polls. Now that he's gaining traction, he'll get more attention, as will his history as mayor of NYC.
 

BlueRidge

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My neighborhood is Warren land. Overall, I've seen more Warren signs or stickers in D.C. than any other candidate. There are Bernie signs/stickers around as well. Not much for anyone else. I see the occasional Trump bumpersticker, but the cars have Maryland or Virginia plates.

I drove up to the mountains in VA last weekend. I didn't see any signs or stickers.

I find it amusing when I go across town I go through some very wealthy neighborhoods. There are a couple of million dollar plus houses with Bernie signs. :lol: Yesterday, I saw the first Bloomberg lawn sign up that way.

Downtown, I've seen a couple of people over time with Buttigieg shirts or buttons, and also Warren shirts. And down near where tourists come I often see MAGA hats.
 

Aerobicidal

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@el henry I'm sorry that my response was so combative. I value your opinions and I have a tendency from my debate background to make that unclear, especially in writing.

On topic: There was one Andrew Yang sign in my neighborhood. Aside from that, I see mostly Amy signs and bumper stickers. I'm curious to see who MN votes for in the primary. (We vote on Super Tuesday.) Warren is the candidate who appeals to me the most, but it's unclear how much that means right now.
 

BittyBug

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If I went by lawn signs and bumper stickers, I wouldn't even know there's a primary underway. The most common sign I see is "Any functioning adult 2020," and a few houses near me still have Clinton / Kaine signs (I guess hope dies last). It's odd actually.
 

Vagabond

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I find it amusing when I go across town I go through some very wealthy neighborhoods. There are a couple of million dollar plus houses with Bernie signs. :lol:
A million dollars won't get you a small single-family home around here. :shuffle:

Wealthy Sanders supporters are common in the Bay Area. They are usually lifelong Democrats, but I know a retired venture capitalist who was always a mainline Republican and now plans to vote for Sanders.
 

AliasJohnDoe

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I'm in Northeast PA (Biden country). Most signs are Bernie, Buttigieg and Warren. When I chat with people when out, Bernie, Buttigieg, and Warren are the main topic. A few Amy and Bloomberg fans. Biden doesn't seem to be much of a factor here. I've visited friends in Philadelphia about 3 months ago and they kept saying Biden is the only one who can beat Trump. But lately they've mostly switched to Buttigieg.

They even mentioned moderates need to decide who to back among them (and stop splitting up the vote) so Bernie doesn't run away with the nomination.
 

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