The Medical Thread: Vaccine Search / Staying Healthy / Treatments Etc

ballettmaus

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My mom's friend told her today that one of my mom's former colleagues hasn't gotten the vaccine yet. She works in a kindergarten (preschool for Americans) but she says that we don't know enough about the longterm side effects yet.

This always makes me go :wall: Yes, she's right, we don't know anything about longterm side effects but we do know about the longterm side effects of YKW. And she works with children for heaven's sake. If she doesn't want to get vaccinated, maybe she can be so considerate to take a year off and not put innocent children at risk who can't get vaccinated yet?
 

MacMadame

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she says that we don't know enough about the longterm side effects yet.
Except it turns out this is 99% untrue. I was reading just yesterday that all long-term effects of prior vaccines were found within the first 2 months of them being available to the public. There are no cases where a long-term effect pops up 3 or 5 or 10 years later.
 

Hedwig

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Except it turns out this is 99% untrue. I was reading just yesterday that all long-term effects of prior vaccines were found within the first 2 months of them being available to the public. There are no cases where a long-term effect pops up 3 or 5 or 10 years later.
do you have a link for that? That sounds interesting.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
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ballettmaus

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It was hard but I did it! :lol:

That's interesting.

I don't know how well said former colleague speaks English but I forwarded the article to my mom. I'm sure the colleague understands the gist of it. (If she wants to).
 

Alli84

Member
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Except it turns out this is 99% untrue. I was reading just yesterday that all long-term effects of prior vaccines were found within the first 2 months of them being available to the public. There are no cases where a long-term effect pops up 3 or 5 or 10 years later.
Except this is a completely new technology. That's precisely why people are worried.
I'm not sure we can rely on that fact with a new type of vaccine...
 

allezfred

Lipinski Stole My Catchphrase
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More and more thinking that we should all take a page from Macron’s book on vaccine refuseniks.
“I no longer have any intention of sacrificing my life, my time, my freedom and the adolescence of my daughters, as well as their right to study properly, for those who refuse to be vaccinated. This time you stay at home, not us.”
“We cannot make those who have the civic sense to get vaccinated bear the burden of inconvenience," Macron said. "The restrictions will weigh on others, those who for reasons incomprehensible in the country of Louis Pasteur, science and the Enlightenment still hesitate to use the only weapon available against the *********, the vaccine."

"I am aware of what I am asking you," he said, "and I know that you are ready for this commitment. This is, in a sense, part of your sense of duty."

 

FGRSK8

Toad whisperer.....
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kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
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But a citizenry has to be proud of being from the country of Louis Pasteur, science, and the Enlightenment, ie, value intellect and reason, for those arguments to have any weight, and we do not.
 

morqet

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Those quotes are not real. For one thing, he doesn't have teenage daughters & his step children are fully grown.
 

MsZem

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I
Those quotes are not real. For one thing, he doesn't have teenage daughters & his step children are fully grown.
I assumed that one had gotten mixed in and was by someone else. The link is to a video, so no idea where the quotes are from.
 

Alli84

Member
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Except it's not. It's new to use it for vaccines but it has been used elsewhere for more than a decade.
Were we not indeed talking about vaccines?
Except it turns out this is 99% untrue. I was reading just yesterday that all long-term effects of prior vaccines were found within the first 2 months of them being available to the public. There are no cases where a long-term effect pops up 3 or 5 or 10 years later.

As for "it has been used elsewhere for more than a decade", I would be happy to see a source. I've googled, and all I can find is that the mRNA technology has been worked on since the 60s, but scientists hadn't managed to make it work until very recently. I found a few mentions of clinical trials, but nowhere have I been able to find examples of ways the technology might have been used in the real world prior to the ********* vaccines.
Scientists around the world have been hoping to make the mRNA technology work against a number of conditions including influenza, Ebola, rabies, cancer... But unless I've missed something, that seems to be that for now.
If you've heard of past triumphs, please share.
 

Karen-W

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But a citizenry has to be proud of being from the country of Louis Pasteur, science, and the Enlightenment, ie, value intellect and reason, for those arguments to have any weight, and we do not.
Well, how about being from the country of Jonas Salk and the polio vaccination?

At this point, people are being dumb about not getting vaccinated, what with this Delta variant running rampant.
 

taz'smum

as @Jesche says - мама knows best
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Barbara Manatee

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Except this is a completely new technology.
This is the first time mRNA vaccines have been used so widely, but as you noted there have been clinical trials - it is not "completely new technology." A quick look at ClinicalTrials.gov shows completed human trials on vaccines for rabies, Zika, chikungunya, pneumonia, flu, melanoma, etc. Before those, there were animal trials.

There could be long-term consequences that didn't show up in those studies, but mRNA vaccines do have a history.
 

Ka3sha

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Just got my first Sputnik V dose an hour ago. So far no side effects, but will see how it goes :)
Second shot is scheduled in three weeks.
Got my second dose yesterday. 30 hours later - a bit sore arm, but no side effects at all. Quite on the contrary, I felt very active and productive for the whole day today :lol:
Also, got my vaccine QR code just 3 hours after vaccination - received it via my personal account on the governmental website for all kinds of different services.
 

Alli84

Member
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This is the first time mRNA vaccines have been used so widely, but as you noted there have been clinical trials - it is not "completely new technology." A quick look at ClinicalTrials.gov shows completed human trials on vaccines for rabies, Zika, chikungunya, pneumonia, flu, melanoma, etc. Before those, there were animal trials.

There could be long-term consequences that didn't show up in those studies, but mRNA vaccines do have a history.
ClinicalTrials.gov lists 35 studies, for anyone curious. I wish we could see the dates easily; I wonder how many of those were started in the past year and a half.

I think my point still stands. https://www.cdc.gov/********/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html says:
mRNA vaccines are a new type of vaccine to protect against infectious diseases.
(...)
mRNA vaccines have been studied before for flu, Zika, rabies, and cytomegalovirus (CMV). As soon as the necessary information about the ***** that causes *********-19 was available, scientists began designing the mRNA instructions for cells to build the unique spike protein into an mRNA vaccine.
They've been studied, not used in the real world.

And the history section at Wikipedia tells the same story of things only really starting to move in 2020.

Also, from reference #27 on Wiki:
Moderna’s technology promised to subvert the whole field, creating therapeutic proteins inside the body instead of in manufacturing plants. The key: harnessing messenger RNA, or mRNA.
(...) It’s highly risky. Big pharma companies had tried similar work and abandoned it because it’s exceedingly hard to get RNA into cells without triggering nasty side effects. But if Moderna can get it to work, the process could be used to treat scores of diseases, including cancers and rare diseases that can be death sentences for children.
So I'd also be curious to know how many of the past studies were considered successful.

Scientists have dreamed about this technology's potential for decades. But like I said, none of us can list any past triumphs yet. So I don't think we can say we know everything there is to know about new-tech vaccines. I don't think anyone should say "Oh, we know for sure new-tech vaccines are gonna behave exactly like old-tech vaccines, for which side effects were always known within a few weeks, so we're good here." We might hope for that, we might weigh this unknown risk against the known, very real risk of getting *********, but we don't know.
 
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kwanfan1818

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One lab at the University of Washington has been working on mNRA vaccines since the '90's, when they were all the rage:

The lead scientist, Dr. Deborah Fuller, said in this interview from March 2020, "Flash forward to present day, and we have solved a lot of those problems. There are numbers of them in phase 2 and phase 3 clinical trials, and they do have DNA vaccines licensed for veterinary use. We've demonstrated now that nucleic acid vaccines do work very well in humans [against things like hep B and influenza]; they cause no adverse reactions, they induce strong immune responses and induce protective levels of immunity, and so I think nucleic acid vaccines are back in the game. "

She described how one or her postdocs, Jesse Erasmus, asked if they could use the technology for a cv vaccine a week after the sequence was published, by which time the lab had been working for nearly two decades on the technology.
 

skategal

Bunny mama
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I think the focus on long-term effects of vaccines is somewhat disingenuous considering it would be near impossible to prove 10 years from now that a vaccine affected anyone when in the meantime our bodies are exposed to so much pollution and toxins every single day.

Short term effects from vaccines can absolutely be known. But long term is much more difficult to assess.
 

ballettmaus

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I think the focus on long-term effects of vaccines is somewhat disingenuous considering it would be near impossible to prove 10 years from now that a vaccine affected anyone when in the meantime our bodies are exposed to so much pollution and toxins every single day.

Short term effects from vaccines can absolutely be known. But long term is much more difficult to assess.
But that means that we wouldn't know any long term effects of any medication we ever take. There are medications, however, that are warning of certain cancers (which I believe is what many are worried about) and other more serious side effects, so those must have shown up in a manner that they could be linked to those medications.
 

Hedwig

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And we know that measles can have long term effects like death and blindness years after the illness.
there are possibilities to link these effects of course. And especially with vaccines which are so thoroughly examined we would know of any long term side effects.
 

skategal

Bunny mama
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I think measuring long term effects of disease and medication is easier because you can “watch” a disease progress over time and you can start and stop medication and measure effects.

The main argument I see against the mRNA vaccines are long term auto immune disease from the vaccine.

I think that would be hugely difficult to prove.

Who knows if I would have a long term autoimmune disease anyway even if I never took the vaccine?
 

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