The Medical Thread: Vaccine Search / Staying Healthy / Treatments Etc

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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This is a great article on where we are now, where we're going and how to evaluate risks and news headlines (that appear horrible but might not be)


Some Excerpts (Bold and some of the italic is mine)

The *********-19 vaccines were originally meant to prevent severe infections. They do so very well. But for a few brief months, we thought they could do even better. Unexpectedly spectacular clinical-trial results from Pfizer and Moderna raised hopes that these vaccines could protect against almost all symptomatic infections and might even be as good as the vaccines against polio and measles, which eliminated transmission of those diseases in the United States.


But, from the very beginning, vaccine experts warned that respiratory diseases are especially tricky to immunize against. The ******** first takes hold in the nose, and injections in the arm are just not very good at stimulating immunity in the nose. (They are still good, however, at raising immunity deep in the lungs to protect against severe disease.) Flu shots, for example, tend to be only 10 to 60 percent effective at keeping people out of the doctor’s office. If *********-19 vaccines end up somewhere similar, they would prevent hospitalizations and death, but the ******** would still circulate. Given Delta’s ability to slightly evade vaccines, combined with its extreme transmissibility, this is again looking like the most likely scenario. So we need to adjust our expectations, again.


Risk of death and hospitalizations from *********-19 rises sharply with age, and in the U.K. nearly everyone over 65 is vaccinated. A New York Times analysis found very few areas in the U.K. where more than 2 percent of residents are 65 and not fully vaccinated. In contrast, that number is above 10 percent in many counties in the American South and Mountain West. Even small differences in these rates can determine the level of crisis: A community where 10 percent of residents are unvaccinated seniors has essentially five times as many people who might need an ICU bed than a community where that number is only 2 percent.

Vaccine coverage also varies dramatically from county to county in the U.S. The more unvaccinated people are concentrated, the more easily the ***** can find its next victim.
Imagine three out of four people in every household are vaccinated; the unvaccinated person is unlikely to spread the ***** very much at home, says Graham Medley, an infectious-disease modeler at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine. Now imagine three out of every four households are completely vaccinated; the ***** will spread through the unvaccinated households. The overall vaccination rate is the same, but the results are very different.


Kids still seem relatively resilient against SARS-CoV-2 compared with adults, as they always have been. But compared with the variants that came before it, Delta is a faster spreader, and therefore a larger threat to everyone who is unvaccinated—which means children are now at greater risk than they were before.

Relative risk will keep shifting, even if the ***** somehow stops mutating and becomes a static threat. (It won’t.)
Our immune systems’ memories of the ********, for instance, could wane—possibly over the course of years, if immunization against similar viruses is a guide. People who are currently fully vaccinated may eventually need boosters. Infants who have never encountered the ******** will be born into the population, while people with immunity die. Even the vaccinated won’t all look the same: Some, including people who are moderately or severely immunocompromised, might never respond to the shots as well as others. The assumptions we first had about whom the ***** might hit hardest will keep changing, as will the population of people who fall ill at all.


That is why this particular statistic—the proportion of vaccinated people in a given outbreak—is so deeply misleading.
“The better the vaccine uptake, the scarier this number will seem,” wrote Lucy D’Agostino McGowan, a statistician at Wake Forest University. By extension, the safer communities become, the more it will seem like the sky is falling—if we continue focusing on the wrong statistics.

“If you’re trying to decide on getting vaccinated, you don’t want to look at the percentage of sick people who were vaccinated,” McGowan wrote. “You want to look at the percentage of people who were vaccinated and got sick.”


(There is, by the way, little incentive for the ***** to get deadlier along the way. Viruses want to spread, not kill. Still, some pathogens can get symptomatically nastier as a by-product of transmissibility, or if those symptoms facilitate their spread.)

All variants, though, will have some common weakness: They can be stopped through the combined measures of vaccines, masks, distancing, and other measures that cut the conduits they need to travel. When viruses spread faster, they can be tougher to control. But they can’t persist without us, and our behavior matters too.
 

Allskate

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11,040
Yes and no. Of the three vaccines that can be administered in the U.S., only the Johnson & Johnson vaccine can be stored at a high enough temperature for it to be of much use in less developed countries.
I know that there are major logistical barriers and hurdles in many parts of the world, but I thought the U.S. sent Pfizer vaccines to a number of countries in South America and Central America and elsewhere. I think the U.S. has donated over 150 million doses of Pfizer and has agreed to donate over a billion doses. This should free up other vaccines to be targeted to areas where Pfizer isn't a good choice. The U.S. also has exported Astra Zeneca, which isn't even approved in the United States.

Aren't there some First World countries that still don't have enough? I know that Australia still has people waiting for the Pfizer vaccine, though they have had plenty of Astra Zeneca and largely have been waiting for the vaccine of the their preference. That created a bit of a mess for them when delta got out of control.

I see the need for exporting, but don't think it's all or nothing. If there are people who genuinely are at high risk of getting sick or spreading it or are critical health care workers, I don't have a problem with giving them boosters from our supply. But, if people are now more susceptible but are not going to get a booster even after 8 months or a year, then I think they deserve to know so that they can take precautions to protect themselves and those around them, because there are so many people who refuse to get vaccinated and take other precautions, which has an impact on everyone.

I also think that more other countries have to donate as well and should become self-sufficient as the ***** isn't going to completely go away. And Pfizer and others should get on board with helping that happen.
 

FiveRinger

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7,394
So your contention is because it produces vaccine, the US will continue to order vaccine that it cannot use just to let it expire on shelves? That seems like a wild thing to contend.
What's wild is your inference based on my statement. The US is manufacturing the vaccine. That's what I said.

There is no indication as to when production will end or even slow down. Not soon since the hospitalization and death rates are on an upswing. Children ages 5-12 will start getting vaccinated in the next month or so. Because I get ads in my Instagram feed from Pfizer that they are hiring everyday in my city, I will hazard a guess that they might even be ramping up. What I would contend is that production will continue as long as there is a demand. And right now there is a demand, both here and abroad.

But since vaccine is being produced and there are people not using them here, one could assume that the excess is being thrown away. Perhaps that will change when people who want boosters can get them. That, along with children entering the equation, maybe that will help in using up the supply that non-vaxers aren't.
 

Theatregirl1122

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25,405
What's wild is your inference based on my statement. The US is manufacturing the vaccine. That's what I said.

I said that if there wasn’t a use here, the US would order less and you said they wouldn’t because it is being manufactured here. How am I supposed to interpret that as anything other than you saying the US is going to order them whether we need them or not?

Vaccine produced here can be sent other places.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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But since vaccine is being produced and there are people not using them here, one could assume that the excess is being thrown away.
They aren't going to throw away perfectly good vaccines. As long as vaccines are not opened, they have a decent shelf life. Even after being opened, Pfizer's vaccine can be stored in the fridge for up to a month. (This wasn't always true but they've gotten better at making a vaccine that doesn't have such strict requirements for storage.) AZ and J&J is even better IIRC.

Excess vaccines have been donated to other countries that need them rather than trash them. I think it would be more efficient to not buy them in the first place (except to immediately donate) as having them shipped to those other countries later means more expense and some of their shelf life is already used up.
 

FiveRinger

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They aren't going to throw away perfectly good vaccines. As long as vaccines are not opened, they have a decent shelf life. Even after being opened, Pfizer's vaccine can be stored in the fridge for up to a month. (This wasn't always true but they've gotten better at making a vaccine that doesn't have such strict requirements for storage.) AZ and J&J is even better IIRC.

Excess vaccines have been donated to other countries that need them rather than trash them. I think it would be more efficient to not buy them in the first place (except to immediately donate) as having them shipped to those other countries later means more expense and some of their shelf life is already used up.
When I was still a hospital employee, there were times that they were throwing away vaccines because they hadn't been used fast enough. It happened more than you would think. Granted, that happened more in the beginning, especially when they anticipated people getting vaccines, they didn't show up and then had to be thrown away. So, yes, there were lots being thrown away.

And then there is this report.
https://www.usnews.com/news/health-...*-19-vaccine-doses-wasted-in-us-since-march-1

ETA: It's not letting me leave the hyperlink
 

Allskate

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And then there is this report.

But that is a small fraction of the total doses and it appears that most of the waste is not due to the expiration of an entire vial or set of vials. For the majority of this waste, it does not seem like a case where there were perfectly good vaccines that could have been sent to other countries but weren't. We are not going to be able to eliminate waste from cracked vials, refrigeration failures, user failures, incomplete vials, etc. regardless of what percentage we export.

Also, it's not just our excess vaccines that are being sent to other countries. We are producing vaccine doses for the express purpose of sending them to other countries. It is a lot of doses. But, some of those doses have not yet been produced and exported. The issue is whether we should be choosing to export more now instead of dedicating them to booster shots here in the U.S.. That decision to export more now can be done, but not from wasted doses from cracked vials, refrigeration failures, user errors, or partial vials.
 

Buzz

Socialist Canada
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34,974
About 80% of people 12+ are fully vaccinated in Ontario and about 86% have at least one dose. They are now holding walk-in clinics in shopping malls. And a First Nations reserve was accidentally given expired Pfizer vaccines for a month.

 

Theatregirl1122

Needs a nap
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25,405
This is cool:


Ugh, due to some really dumb timing with a friend's doctor not advising her to get vaccinated while pregnant until fairly close to the end of her pregnancy and also literally the day she gave my friend her TDAP, my friend could not get Moderna or Pfizer and be fully vaccinated before delivery, so she got J&J. Of course none of the research is on J&J and I continue to feel frustrated that she was put in this position because she trusted her doctor when many doctors advised it much earlier. I feel like her son could have much better protection if her doctor hadn't messed it up.

That being said, both my sister-in-law and another friend were vaccinated with Pfizer during pregnancy, so this is great news for them! My SIL was among the first pregnant people to be vaccinated because she works in an ER so she received the vaccine very early.
 

MacMadame

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Ugh, due to some really dumb timing with a friend's doctor not advising her to get vaccinated while pregnant until fairly close to the end of her pregnancy and also literally the day she gave my friend her TDAP, my friend could not get Moderna or Pfizer and be fully vaccinated before delivery, so she got J&J. Of course none of the research is on J&J and I continue to feel frustrated that she was put in this position because she trusted her doctor when many doctors advised it much earlier. I feel like her son could have much better protection if her doctor hadn't messed it up.
I would suspect that being vaccinated with any vaccine would give this sort of protection though.
 

sk9tingfan

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And yet another COVIDIOT response:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/me...-say-reports/ar-AAOPKC1?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531
 

sk9tingfan

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So these folks will gargle iodine but not take the vaccine?! :wideeyes:
I know. So many articles about deniers either about the safety/efficacy of the vaccine as well as the existence of the crud even on their death beds. It's just unfathomable.
 

MsZem

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Yay, another rehash of the poorly sourced Rolling Stone article which has already been posted here.

No indication of how prevalent this may be. No links or screencaps documenting this supposed trend. I did find a few in another article, but nothing beyond the flimsiest anecdotal evidence - a few tweets and comments with basically zero engagement. Did Rolling Stone apply the same reporting standards they did with the "ERs overrun by people who OD'd on Ivermectin" story?

The gargling betadine/antiseptic story has been making the rounds, apparently - here's a fact check from May:
And even here there's little indication that people are actually using it in such a manner.
The new part appears to be Betadine's response on their website. Whether it reflects anything actually happening in the real world is unclear, but the Q&A refers not just to antiseptic for external use but also to Betadine's throat gargle.
 

sk9tingfan

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Yay, another rehash of the poorly sourced Rolling Stone article which has already been posted here.


The new part appears to be Betadine's response on their website. Whether it reflects anything actually happening in the real world is unclear, but the Q&A refers not just to antiseptic for external use but also to Betadine's throat gargle.
Regardless on the form of Betadine, it's efficacy against the crud is not proven. That's the point.
 

MsZem

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Regardless on the form of Betadine, it's efficacy against the crud is not proven. That's the point.
No, the point is that the various articles on this supposed phenomenon present very little evidence that people are actually using any Betadine products to treat CV.
 

clairecloutier

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I don't know if it's been posted here yet, but here is the CDC guidance on booster shots, with a link to the list of underlying conditions that make one eligible for the booster:


The list of conditions includes anyone overweight with BMI > 25.
 

Judy

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Would they not have some idea how long immunity lasts from following the people from the initial clinical trials? I have wondered that for a while but googling didn’t help.
 

MacMadame

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Would they not have some idea how long immunity lasts from following the people from the initial clinical trials? I have wondered that for a while but googling didn’t help.
There have been some studies. And they conform to what the article I posted in the "News and Experiences" thread said. Antibodies wan but the t-cell response is still going strong when tested and is suspected to last for years.
 

FGRSK8

Toad whisperer.....
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It is reported that the rates of vaccinations is falling again.

I just don’t get it. There are so many stories out there about people on their deathbeds saying they wish they had gotten the vaccine. Also with almost 44 million cases in the country, it is a safe bet that everyone knows someone who had gotten this thing, or has been hospitalized, or possibly has passed away.

What more do you need?
 

Tesla

Whippet Good
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2,761
It is reported that the rates of vaccinations is falling again.

I just don’t get it. There are so many stories out there about people on their deathbeds saying they wish they had gotten the vaccine. Also with almost 44 million cases in the country, it is a safe bet that everyone knows someone who had gotten this thing, or has been hospitalized, or possibly has passed away.

What more do you need?
Unfortunately, I think you need something more Hollywood (i.e. flashier and deadlier a la Ebola). 🙁 Maybe then, people will listen.
 

MsZem

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16,511
It is reported that the rates of vaccinations is falling again.

I just don’t get it. There are so many stories out there about people on their deathbeds saying they wish they had gotten the vaccine. Also with almost 44 million cases in the country, it is a safe bet that everyone knows someone who had gotten this thing, or has been hospitalized, or possibly has passed away.

What more do you need?
1. For people to think that this could happen to them. Even if people know others who have had severe cases, they may underweigh the likelihood that they are also at risk. Estimating risk is hard and people can overdo it or underdo it.

2. Clear and accessible information that can cut through the clutter. There's a lot of confusing information and misinformation out there, and vaccine-hesitant people need something that they can understand and trust.

The sources of such information may not be the ones who are currently communicating with the public. Health communication isn't something medical experts are necessarily good at; it's a specific area of research and expertise, and there are people who are good at it. Let's rely on them.

People may have specific questions or concerns that can be easily addressed. Figure out how to create a space where they can raise these questions and have them answered. Do they need to hear from a doctor? A researcher? Clergy? Someone like them who's already been vaccinated? Different people can be helpful here.

3. For some of those who are not yet vaccinated, it's really about convenience, and I don't mean that in a derogatory way. There are people with a lot on their plates, and it's important to address whatever barriers are keeping them from getting vaccinated.

Some people are rabid anti-vaxxers and can't be reached, but many can - if we figure out what they want and need to hear and how to nudge or help them in the right direction.
 

once_upon

Vaccinated
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19,463
We got our Pfizer booster this afternoon. It appeared that we needed an appointment so did that this morning for a 2 pm appointment

When we got there, and people overheard us and asked to get one too. We each got a $10 gift card for getting one.

The nurse was busy-between flu shots and boosters.

I hope the J&J and Moderna people can get one soon. Worried particularly for son who got J&J
 

FGRSK8

Toad whisperer.....
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20,053
Since we got our second shots on April 26th, we will wait until the end of October for the booster since that will be the 6 month window….
 

once_upon

Vaccinated
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Since we got our second shots on April 25th, we will wait until the end of October for the booster since that will be the 6 month window….
We had gotten our second shot on March 13th @11:15 am.

(It was recorded on our immunization card :) )

I've now had my flu, DaPT, and C-19 booster. When I come back from seeing @suep1963 and @purple skates in October, I'm heading for shingles shot.
 

Tavi

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2,093
We had gotten our second shot on March 13th @11:15 am.

(It was recorded on our immunization card :) )

I've now had my flu, DaPT, and C-19 booster. When I come back from seeing @suep1963 and @purple skates in October, I'm heading for shingles shot.
Good luck! In my experience, the second shingles shot was far worse (fever, aches, malaise etc) than the C19 or flu ones (I had a pretty mild reaction to both C19 and none at all to flu).
 

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