The Medical Thread: Vaccine Search / Staying Healthy / Treatments Etc

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
Messages
15,320
Moderna CEO says vaccine won't be ready before spring and they won't seek emergency authorization. Someone's not going to be happy about the news. https://tinyurl.com/y7p72ltd


Are there any news about the Russian vaccine? Is it being distributed to the whole population? Any news about how compatible it is?

Unless it's a 100% success, I don't expect to hear the truth out of Russia. And even if it's a 100% success, I'd like for someone else to verify that before I believe it.
 

Ka3sha

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,219
Are there any news about the Russian vaccine? Is it being distributed to the whole population? Any news about how compatible it is?
Ending the nightmare A ‘Meduza’ special correspondent joins Russia’s ******** vaccine clinical trials and catalogs the experience before and after her shot


Among all online newspapers and aggregators of news in Russian language, I’d call this one the most reliable one. It’s based in Riga and so is independent from Russian government. They have an English language version and website.
 

hanca

Values her privacy
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10,761
If there are a number of strains, how can they develop a vaccine? I would think it would be like with the flu - the flu vaccine also can’t cover all the strains of flu. I guess better than nothing, but it won’t be very reliable protection.
 

SkateSand

Cat Servant
Messages
826
If there are a number of strains, how can they develop a vaccine? I would think it would be like with the flu - the flu vaccine also can’t cover all the strains of flu. I guess better than nothing, but it won’t be very reliable protection.

According to the link I posted above, it is not supposed to present a problem with a vaccine.
 

aka_gerbil

Rooting for the Underdogs
Messages
2,184
If there are a number of strains, how can they develop a vaccine? I would think it would be like with the flu - the flu vaccine also can’t cover all the strains of flu. I guess better than nothing, but it won’t be very reliable protection.

You design the vaccine around a conserved portion of the *****. Designing a vaccine for heterologus strains of the same organism is not uncommon or all that complicated. The spike protein was an easy target for a first generation vaccine. In time, there will be second generation vaccines that will be better than the first.

The flu has always been problematic because a quirk of how the genome is physically structured makes it prone to hypermutation. For all the talk about strains of the crud, it's actually a fairly slow mutator for a ***** as it has some proof-reading ability during replication.

Re: Storage and distribution. -80 C freezers are a super common piece of laboratory equipment. We have several of them in just the lab space for my department at work and many throughout the company. The lab I did my grad school work had one in our lab and access to another. The lab I did my undergraduate research in had several. They're a little bigger than a household chest freezer, usually equipped with an alarm to alert someone if the temp comes up too much. Not sure about human, but there are some animal vaccines out there that require storage and transport at those temps (liquid nitrogen). People know how to do this. It's just... scale. The scale this needs to be done at is something we are not prepared for.
 

becca

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Messages
19,951
I am trying to lose weight because well weight is one of the factors that can make it worse. I gained weight during the *********. One thing I am trying that is sort of working for me is intermediate fasting I am trying to go at least 12 hours with no food. A couple of days a week more. I have noticed my appetite has decreased big time now that I am teaching myself no and not eating at night.
 

Judy

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,767
You design the vaccine around a conserved portion of the *****. Designing a vaccine for heterologus strains of the same organism is not uncommon or all that complicated. The spike protein was an easy target for a first generation vaccine. In time, there will be second generation vaccines that will be better than the first.

The flu has always been problematic because a quirk of how the genome is physically structured makes it prone to hypermutation. For all the talk about strains of the crud, it's actually a fairly slow mutator for a ***** as it has some proof-reading ability during replication.

Re: Storage and distribution. -80 C freezers are a super common piece of laboratory equipment. We have several of them in just the lab space for my department at work and many throughout the company. The lab I did my grad school work had one in our lab and access to another. The lab I did my undergraduate research in had several. They're a little bigger than a household chest freezer, usually equipped with an alarm to alert someone if the temp comes up too much. Not sure about human, but there are some animal vaccines out there that require storage and transport at those temps (liquid nitrogen). People know how to do this. It's just... scale. The scale this needs to be done at is something we are not prepared for.
What do you do for a living? Yes the entire world has never been required to vaccinate all at once before.
is it possible that once a vaccine becomes available that other companies can also help make it? Obviously I don’t know a lot about this.
 

spinZZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
174
Re: Storage and distribution. -80 C freezers are a super common piece of laboratory equipment. We have several of them in just the lab space for my department at work and many throughout the company. The lab I did my grad school work had one in our lab and access to another. The lab I did my undergraduate research in had several. They're a little bigger than a household chest freezer, usually equipped with an alarm to alert someone if the temp comes up too much. Not sure about human, but there are some animal vaccines out there that require storage and transport at those temps (liquid nitrogen). People know how to do this. It's just... scale. The scale this needs to be done at is something we are not prepared for.
<<Emphasis added.>> But mass distribution won't be performed at research labs. Consider where flu vaccines have traditionally been administered: health clinics, doctors offices, schools, offices, pharmacies, supermarkets, big box stores, senior citizen centers ... The appropriate equipment, along with the appropriate training, won't be so easy to come by at the traditional point-of-use sites.

Question: Do you really need liquid nitrogen, or will dry ice do?
 

aka_gerbil

Rooting for the Underdogs
Messages
2,184
What do you do for a living? Yes the entire world has never been required to vaccinate all at once before.
is it possible that once a vaccine becomes available that other companies can also help make it? Obviously I don’t know a lot about this.
I'm a research scientist. My work is with products for animals and not humans though.

That is a complicated question on multiple fronts. If it's something like the Pfizer candidate gets approved, you're not going to Johnson and Johnson, Merck, and others producing it. This vaccine is necessary, but I'm hard pressed anyone is going to give up trade secret information to a rival. If it's something like the Moderna candidate (which I am still skeptical about it being the one in the end), then other companies would necessarily be setup to make a mRNA vaccines, even if the trade secret/patent can of worms wasn't an issue.

<<Emphasis added.>> But mass distribution won't be performed at research labs. Consider where flu vaccines have traditionally been administered: health clinics, doctors offices, schools, offices, pharmacies, supermarkets, big box stores, senior citizen centers ... The appropriate equipment, along with the appropriate training, won't be so easy to come by at the traditional point-of-use sites.

Question: Do you really need liquid nitrogen, or will dry ice do?

My primary point was that -80 C freezers aren't some sort of far flung piece of equipment and they can bought and easily installed. I do grant that you're not going to typically find them in grocery stores or big box markets, but it would be an easy to remedy problem to install them in these places if there were enough of them. In the scheme of lab equipment, it's roll it in to place and plug it in. The problem is there is not enough of them out there to get one into each of these places.

The specific examples that I know of, liquid nitrogen is used. (Just extrapolating, liquid nitrogen is also used to store things like semen and embryos that need to be kept that cold, so maybe those sorts of tanks could provide an additional way of storing vaccine in traditional locations that vaccines are given). The dry ice crossed my mind. There are certain reagents that are shipped on dry ice that live at -80 or -20 and I once shipped samples in grad school that needed to be kept cold on dry ice.

I am going to ask someone else tomorrow who knows a lot more about this subject than I do if it has to be liquid nitrogen or if dry ice would do.
 

Miezekatze

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15,276
In Germany they are working on plans to vaccinate people. I think the main plan is to use exhibition halls. So big centers where people who are mobile can come to, guess this will work well for medical professions and other people with important jobs and also for the parts of the at-risk population that is still mobile.

My state also just ordered medical instruments for vaccinating 9 million people (very theoretically optimistic I guess at this point :p ), my state has 11 million inhabitants.

I'd guess the actual availability and distribution of large amounts of the actual vaccines are a much higher challenge than the availability and logistics of the needed instruments/freezers/etc..,

I don't really except mass vaccines for the broad public in 2021, only important professions and the elderly, people with risk illnesses, ....
 

Judy

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Messages
1,767
I'm a research scientist. My work is with products for animals and not humans though.

That is a complicated question on multiple fronts. If it's something like the Pfizer candidate gets approved, you're not going to Johnson and Johnson, Merck, and others producing it. This vaccine is necessary, but I'm hard pressed anyone is going to give up trade secret information to a rival. If it's something like the Moderna candidate (which I am still skeptical about it being the one in the end), then other companies would necessarily be setup to make a mRNA vaccines, even if the trade secret/patent can of worms wasn't an issue.



My primary point was that -80 C freezers aren't some sort of far flung piece of equipment and they can bought and easily installed. I do grant that you're not going to typically find them in grocery stores or big box markets, but it would be an easy to remedy problem to install them in these places if there were enough of them. In the scheme of lab equipment, it's roll it in to place and plug it in. The problem is there is not enough of them out there to get one into each of these places.

The specific examples that I know of, liquid nitrogen is used. (Just extrapolating, liquid nitrogen is also used to store things like semen and embryos that need to be kept that cold, so maybe those sorts of tanks could provide an additional way of storing vaccine in traditional locations that vaccines are given). The dry ice crossed my mind. There are certain reagents that are shipped on dry ice that live at -80 or -20 and I once shipped samples in grad school that needed to be kept cold on dry ice.

I am going to ask someone else tomorrow who knows a lot more about this subject than I do if it has to be liquid nitrogen or if dry ice would do.
Well I am not as smart and as educated (obviously) as you. That is kind of what I was thinking too but I don’t totally understand the entire process either.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
Messages
37,787
I don't really except mass vaccines for the broad public in 2021, only important professions and the elderly, people with risk illnesses, ....
I've been thinking about this and wonder how they are going to manage it. I mean some of it will be obvious. Do you work in the ER? See patients? You get it. Are you 'elderly'? What does that mean, exactly? How about if you have co-morbidities? Which ones or how many put you at the front of the line? How about if you are high risk but can't have a vaccine for a medical reason. Does everyone in your household get to have it instead or are you just screwed?

I assume people are thinking about these things. I do worry that the response in the US has been such a cluster-f that the vaccination rollout will be one too.
 

Miezekatze

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15,276
I think in Germany a plan is currently actively in the works, they made a committee for it, I think they wanted to have it worked out during the next weeks.
How about if you are high risk but can't have a vaccine for a medical reason. Does everyone in your household get to have it instead or are you just screwed?

I think this must be one of the most difficult parts, because I read that some vaccines of the 1st generation might not even stop the spread of the *****. They migth only protect the person who gets vaccinated, because then the person might not get sick with the illness or at least not as badly as without the vaccination, but the person would still be able to spread the ***** to other people. Obviously such a vaccine would be no help for people who can't actually get vaccinated?! :scream:

I'm not sure if there is actual information yet on which vaccines that are currently in phase III actually can achieve what?
 

Orm Irian

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Messages
885
I'd guess the actual availability and distribution of large amounts of the actual vaccines are a much higher challenge than the availability and logistics of the needed instruments/freezers/etc..,
And of course, you can build up your supplies of instruments, freezers, PPE etc before the vaccine becomes available, whereas the vaccine itself is on a different timeline. Though we have a major lab here in Australia that's already producing (IIRC) the Oxford vaccine ahead of it completing its Phase III trials and being certified for use, so that if it does get the go-ahead there's stock available to be rolled out as quickly as possible, and they won't be the only ones doing it either.
 

once_upon

Voter
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16,721
44,000 enrolled in clinical trials isn't very many relatively speaking. I wonder what makes their formula different from others that have slowed or halted clinical trials?
 

Miezekatze

Well-Known Member
Messages
15,276
44,000 enrolled in clinical trials isn't very many relatively speaking. I wonder what makes their formula different from others that have slowed or halted clinical trials?

I thought you only mandatorily need 30000 in Phase III, which is even less than 44 000. :shuffle:

I read something about their type of vaccine being a mRNA vaccine, which I think the one from AstraZeneca is not, but this is too much over my head to understand what exactly makes it different from vaccines of another technology. Maybe some expert here can explain it. :lol:

But on whether a trial needs to be halted, it might just mostly be a matter of luck?

I mean even if a vaccine is not causing side effects, any trial person might get seriously ill while on the trial, even if it has nothing to do with the vaccine but is just a coincidence, which would still lead to a halted trial until they figured out if the vaccine is likely to have anything to do with it.
 

Theatregirl1122

Needs a nap
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22,999
Yes, the Pfizer vaccine is an mRNA vaccine. We don’t currently have any mRNA vaccines in use, although my understanding is that it was believed that mRNA vaccines would be the best candidates for quick development in this situation. It also seems like they may have more side effects?

AstraZeneca is a viral vector vaccine.

Vaccine science is NOT my area of expertise so please someone correct me if I’m wrong or expand.

As far as the trial being paused, yes, it is somewhat a matter of luck if a major adverse event occurs in a variety of ways. If the drug causes a very rare major adverse event, tbh it’s lucky that it shows up in the trial, although the $$$ might not think so. If the drug doesn’t cause a major adverse event, yes, it’s pretty random whether something would happen you’d have to elementary.
 

maureenfarone

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2,248
Yesterday the news mentioned that CVS and Walgreens were making a case for distribution of the YKW vaccine. I'm not a scientist or medical professional but the cold store requirements really concern me. Here is an article that talks about the requirements and how it relates to Moderna and Pfizer:
https://tinyurl.com/y5tklqet
 

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