The Medical Thread: Vaccine Search / Staying Healthy / Treatments Etc

Maofan7

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The following articles set out the important role that Vitamin D3 plays in maintaining a healthy immune system and enabling the body to fight off the c-vir*s. They recommend taking vitamin D3 supplements (10 micrograms per day) where there is a deficiency

The articles also explain that vitamin D3 deficiency is greater in some groups compared to others and that those groups who have a greater deficiency have suffered a disproportionate number of deaths as a result



 
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aka_gerbil

Rooting for the Underdogs
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The 3 point plan to boosting your immune system and maximising your bodies ability to fight off the c-vir*s


This is a (huge) pet peeve of mine.
You really don’t want your immune system to be boosted. You want it working normally. Most biological functions are on a curve, with both extremes of too much or too little usually being not good. You want a balance. If your immune system is underesponsive, then you can’t fight things off. Boosted is a synonym for an overactive immune system. It’s an inappropriate response of the immune system and it leads to bad outcomes. The immune system is like Goldilocks and the Three Bears: you want it just right—well balanced and modulated so you clear infections but not so severe that it causes damage, etc.

That there is crosstalk/influence from intestinal microflora is well demonstrated. What has not been entirely determined is what situations are these influences good, bad, or neutral to overall health. Likewise, multiple vitamins are cofactors for * normal * immune function, but there’s little evidence that if you’re eating a balanced diet, consuming additional amounts has any real effect. This is before we talk about dosing and bioavailability of vitamins and minerals in supplement form compared to consuming them as part of a well-balanced diet.
 
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Maofan7

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This is a (huge) pet peeve of mine.
You really don’t want your immune system to be boosted. You want it working normally. Most biological functions are on a curve, with both extremes of too much or too little usually being not good. You want a balance. If your immune system is underesponsive, then you can’t fight things off. Boosted is a synonym for an overactive immune system. It’s an inappropriate response of the immune system and it leads to bad outcomes. The immune system is like Goldilocks and the Three Bears: you want it just right—well balanced and modulated so you clear infections but not so severe that it causes damage, etc.

That there is crosstalk/influence from intestinal microflora is well demonstrated. What has not been entirely determined is what situations are these influences good, bad, or neutral to overall health. Likewise, multiple vitamins are cofactors for * normal * immune function, but there’s little evidence that if you’re eating a balanced diet, consuming additional amounts has any real effect. This is before we talk about dosing and bioavailability of vitamins and minerals in supplement form compared to consuming them as part of a well-balanced diet.


Thanks for your very informative post

By "boosting" in the context of what is contained in the articles is meant correcting a deficiency in order to make the immune system operate normally. As you point out, an immune system that overreacts is a problem.
 
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aka_gerbil

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Thanks for your very informative post

By "boosting" in the context of what is contained in the articles is meant correcting a deficiency in order to make the immune system operate normally. As you point out, an immune system that overreacts is a problem.

You’re welcome.

This was sort of what I was getting at and is the heart of my peeve. Boosted immune system/response is not the correct term to use in that situation—it means a very particular thing when tm you’re talking about the immune system and it means the immune system is veering past center towards the upper end of the curve where you see too much of a response. If you have someone low on vitamin D and you correct that to optimal, boosting is an incorrect term to use in full context of how immune function/response is described. It’s more accurate to describe correcting a vitamin deficiency as exactly that: a correction that all helps the immune system operate optimally (i.e. well regulated and modulated immune response).

Full disclosure: I have a doctorate in genetics and am a research scientist who works with vaccines. I geek out on this and like descriptions to be correct.
 

Maofan7

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With all the talk of remaining in degrees of lock down for months on end whilst the world waits for a vaccine, there is always this approach

 
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Maofan7

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British scientists look to have a vaccine ready to deploy by September


WHO casts doubt on antibody tests

 
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Maofan7

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The debate around hydroxychloroquine


Concerns over the use and effectiveness of ventilators


 
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Theatregirl1122

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Sorry, but this is kind of ridiculous. Of course a large percentage of people on ventilators die. Only people who are close to death are placed on ventilators. That doesn't mean that they aren't the best option. It means that they are only being given to people who don't have much chance left, so a large proportion of them will die. This is junk science. In order to prove that the ventilators are causing harm rather than helping, you'd have to have the same population of people not being put on ventilators and see that more of them were surviving. Or have them put on a different treatment.

One of the articles is saying that early results from CPAP machines are showing more positive results, but they're also saying "if we start these early enough, we prevent people from needing to go on ventilators" which means that they aren't putting the same severity of patient on these CPAP machines.

And as far as vitamin D, there is no evidence that vitamin D has any positive effect on immune response whatsoever. The idea that tons of people have vitamin D deficiency and need to take vitamin D in order to improve their immune system and that will prevent ********* is being pushed by a "scientist" who doesn't believe that viruses cause disease.

In general, people who have a varied diet in a developed country are unlikely to have a vitamin D deficiency. In fact, vitamin D deficiency is most common in tropical countries in the developing world, where *********-19 is not hitting very hard.

American POC are more likely to get ******** and more likely to die of ******** because of structural inequality. POC, especially black people, are more likely to live in poverty in the US. If you live in poverty you are more likely to have worse healthcare throughout your lifetime which leads to a higher rate of underlying conditions. People in poverty are more likely to live in more cramped living conditions with more people in smaller spaces and more dwellings per square foot. They are also more likely to do hourly wage work which is currently being classified as "essential" and require to continue work outside of the home as opposed to the kind of white collar work that allows one to work from home.

4 reasons ******** is hitting black communities so hard
 

MacMadame

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Sorry, but this is kind of ridiculous. Of course a large percentage of people on ventilators die. Only people who are close to death are placed on ventilators. That doesn't mean that they aren't the best option.
Also, it seems in some other countries they put people on ventilators sooner and they do better.

So I think we are still learning the best way to treat this, but it's clear you need to put people who can't breathe on breathing treatments and that includes ventilators.
 

skatingguy

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One of the treatment procedures that I'm seeing discussed is putting people on their stomachs, and keeping them on nasal cannula oxygen when their pulse ox is so low that it would normally indicate that ventilation would be required. There was a doctor on CNN talking to Anderson Cooper this evening that talked about this treatment approach because patients would have terrible looking x-rays, and really low pulse ox rates, and yet be talking, which medically speaking should have been impossible maybe indicating that ventilation wasn't the best way to go.
 

Theatregirl1122

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One of the treatment procedures that I'm seeing discussed is putting people on their stomachs, and keeping them on nasal cannula oxygen when their pulse ox is so low that it would normally indicate that ventilation would be required. There was a doctor on CNN talking to Anderson Cooper this evening that talked about this treatment approach because patients would have terrible looking x-rays, and really low pulse ox rates, and yet be talking, which medically speaking should have been impossible maybe indicating that ventilation wasn't the best way to go.

Has this been studied in any kind of randomized controlled trial?
 

Lanie

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It's called proning and is used fairly often for various respiratory disorders. My mom who is a retired respiratory therapist did this for patients a lot.
 

skatingguy

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Has this been studied in any kind of randomized controlled trial?
I doubt that it's been studied in that manner for *********-19, but I would think the procedure has been studied for other conditions. At this point it seems that doctors are trying things to see what works best for the patient in front of them, or at least, that's what I'm getting from interviews with doctors working in the worst hit hospitals.
 

snoopy

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I also read that lying on your stomach helps drain your lungs whereas lying on your back allows gunk to stagnate more.
 

Coco

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I didn't know where else to put this...but given the range of different experiences people can have with the *****, does anything think it's possible Chris Reed's heart attack is related to IT?
 

Prancer

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Anything is possible, but I would think he had an autopsy, given his age, and they'd have seen signs of the crud if it actually led to his death.

Why wouldn't it just be a heart attack?
 

MacMadame

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Athletes having heart attacks is a thing too. There is research that suggests that no exercise is bad for your heart but intense exercise is bad for your heart. IOW that exercise exists on a U and people at either end of the range risk heart attacks.
 

Dave of the North

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Has this been studied in any kind of randomized controlled trial?

According to this article it's been used for a long time for ARDS


"The Proning Severe ARDS Patients (PROSEVA) trial in 2013, however, demonstrated a significant decrease in mortality of patients with ARDS and established the methodology for a longer prone position (16 hours) before returning to supine position.34 A subsequent meta-analysis pooled results from 8 randomized controlled trials, with a subgroup analysis showing that patients with severe ARDS had a mortality benefit when prone positioning was used for a minimum of 12 hours per day.35 The use of prone positioning for more than 12 hours per day in patients with severe ARDS is strongly recommended in the 2017 clinical practice guidelines.13"
 

Barbara Manatee

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More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA ***** study
A malaria drug widely touted by President Donald Trump for treating the new ******** showed no benefit in a large analysis of its use in U.S. veterans hospitals. There were more deaths among those given hydroxychloroquine versus standard care, researchers reported.

The nationwide study was not a rigorous experiment. But with 368 patients, it’s the largest look so far of hydroxychloroquine with or without the antibiotic azithromycin for *********-19, which has killed more than 171,000 people as of Tuesday.
It is becoming clear that these drugs are a bust.
 

bladesofgorey

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Here is how my doctor is treating patients who are not hospitalized (she has had over 100 patients turn up positive to date):

  • Move. Walk if you can walk, pace back and forth if you can. If you can handle being upright all day except to sleep stay upright. More movement is better than less. Keep blood flowing as much as possible.
  • Breathing exercises: try to take as deep a breath as you can even though it hurts/is difficult and then try and hold it for u to 5 seconds 5 times in a row. Exhale hard at the end of each.
  • Let yourself cough when you have the urge (away from everyone else obviously because at this point you should be isolated)
  • Lots of hot fluids
  • Try to eat small amounts of food slowly but constantly even though you find eating difficult/repulsive in orer to keep calories in
  • Steam a big pot of hot water and breath the steam in with a towel over your head
  • Hot steamy showers if possible
  • Tylenol for pain/headaches
  • Sleep on your side/sleep propped up
  • Vitamin C / Zinc, Zpack only for suspected/potential bacterial infections
  • Positive thinking, one day/hour/minute at a time.
source: I have the ***** and I have been fighting it at home
 

sk8pics

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7,420
More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA ***** study It is becoming clear that these drugs are a bust.
Thanks for the link. The site you linked, linked to the NIH site where they specifically recommend against the combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin, which is what my aunt is being treated with. I let my cousin know, and hopefully she won't get mad at me for butting in. One of her brothers is a doctor (and a very good one!), but I told her the NIH info was updated just today. Oh, and she just texted me a thank you, so that's good.
 

acraven

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I just posted this in the News and Experiences thread, but I guess it is more appropriate here--a NY Times article explaining *********-19 pneumonia that recommends monitoring of oxygen levels in patients suspected to have the *****:

https://tinyurl.com/ybwj3a7b
 

Theatregirl1122

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According to this article it's been used for a long time for ARDS


"The Proning Severe ARDS Patients (PROSEVA) trial in 2013, however, demonstrated a significant decrease in mortality of patients with ARDS and established the methodology for a longer prone position (16 hours) before returning to supine position.34 A subsequent meta-analysis pooled results from 8 randomized controlled trials, with a subgroup analysis showing that patients with severe ARDS had a mortality benefit when prone positioning was used for a minimum of 12 hours per day.35 The use of prone positioning for more than 12 hours per day in patients with severe ARDS is strongly recommended in the 2017 clinical practice guidelines.13"

Gotcha. So it's just an approved protocol being used for the exact thing it is already approved for, so not really news at all.

Thanks for the link. The site you linked, linked to the NIH site where they specifically recommend against the combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin, which is what my aunt is being treated with. I let my cousin know, and hopefully she won't get mad at me for butting in. One of her brothers is a doctor (and a very good one!), but I told her the NIH info was updated just today. Oh, and she just texted me a thank you, so that's good.

Yeah, there is a lot of reason to be skeptical of that original study. It contained very few patients. Patients were excluded from the hydroxychloroquine arm who really should have counted as failures. And I have yet to find a good scientific reason for how azithromycin got involved at all. (If anyone sees anything, point me to it, because i really want to know why there is an antibiotic being used to treat this *****.)

That being said, the new study doesn't show much either. It's an observational study, not a randomized control trial, so it's entirely possible that doctors are giving hydroxychloroquine to patients they view as the most serious which results in a higher death rate. It's also possible that the side effects from hydroxychloroquine actually are resulting in a higher death rate. But there's no way to know from that study.
 

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