The Biden-Harris Administration

KCC

Well-Known Member
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2,322
I just looked at our marriage license from Cincinnati in 1995. It is an old xeroxed page that was copied crooked and one corner of the copy is missing. But it has a raised seal embossed on the bottom of the paper.
 

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
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8,135
I agree it's not always "oh so simple" as some like to portray. When I moved back home, getting a new driver's license was a lengthy ordeal even though they still had my info in the system from my previous DL's. My original SS form was refused because the card was no longer attached. It required two trips to SS office on the other side of town with a 2 hr.+ wait each trip - to apply for duplicate card and then to pick up SS card (since it's no longer safe to receive in mail due to identity theft.)

When it was time to renew and get the new TSA approved DL (for air travel), at least ten or more people in front of me did not have all the documents needed to get the new DL and were turned away. The only reason I did is because I brought extra documents (mail for proof of address, etc.)

For another example, in many places birth certificates for children born up to '90s are a typed government form signed by appropriate parties and embossed with the official seal. We had to order new ones that are now computer printed on certificate paper and stamped with the seal because some offices accept the original birth certificates, and some do not, so kids need to bring them both to avoid an unnecessary trip.

I'm sure hourly workers without leave time face hardships when they have to make multiple trips, miss work, transfer a couple times on the bus or use UBER to get all this stuff done.
 

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
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17,359
IDs in the US are incredibly hard to obtain. So much of it is based on the ability to purchase the form of ID.
You have to pay for the ID in Germany as well (kind of ironic considering that it's mandated by law) but if you're unemployed or are on a very low income, there's much better assistance than there is in the US. In Berlin, you also get things like public transport tickets either included in the assistance or there are special tickets available, so you can also get to the place where you need to go.

I agree it's not always "oh so simple" as some like to portray. When I moved back home, getting a new driver's license was a lengthy ordeal even though they still had my info in the system from my previous DL's.
Exchanging my German driver's license to a VA license (and Real ID) required two trips to the DMV. Can't remember why exactly but I handed in all the documents the first time around and the second included the eye exam, picture, payment and ended with me getting a temporary license.
 

caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
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17,638
To prevent fraud you definitely want establishment of identity to require thorough proof. You could try to move to biometric ids but then the civil libertarians go nuts!
 

caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
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17,638
So you pass a law banning all fees and documents and just change the whole system to sign an affidavit swearing you are who you say you are? What’s the solution so no one is ever overly inconvenienced ever again?
 

Louis

Private citizen
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17,221
How do hourly workers get a legal job without a photo ID or Social Security card? I remain unconvinced that there are large swathes of people walking around with no photo ID, given how many things in life require photo ID. If people can find time to vote, they can find time to get an ID. Getting an ID isn't "privilege;" it's an essential part of participating in society. If you don't want to participate in society, then don't vote. God forbid anyone take personal responsibility, follow the rules, or plan ahead :rolleyes:.

That said, I do actually support NY and other places allowing lawful permanent residents, or even people with visas that give a path to permanent residency, to vote in local elections (with proper ID).
 

allezfred

Lipinski Stole My Catchphrase
Staff member
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Out of curiosity what are the costs associated with obtaining a photo ID and how much do “hourly” workers get paid per hour?
 

Amy L

Well-Known Member
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7,390
Out of curiosity what are the costs associated with obtaining a photo ID and how much do “hourly” workers get paid per hour?

A driver's license in Texas (where I live) costs something like $30 per renewal. You have to renew them every 1-5 years depending on the type of license or if you have any specific medical conditions that need a doctor's signature before you can drive. If you just want a photo ID, it's $16 every 6 years. But public transportation in most of Texas is practically nonexistent, so most adults will have a full DL. Along with that comes car payments, insurance, yearly car inspections, and an annual tax. It can get very expensive, but like I said, it's pretty much a necessity where I live.

There are plenty of people that don't have the money for insurance or the inspections, so they go for the "hope and pray" method of not getting caught. Undocumented people won't be able to get most of these things.

"Hourly workers" doesn't really mean much. US minimum wage is $7.25 but there are plenty of non-salaried workers that make $20+/hr. So really it could be anything in that range. You do need ID for above-the-board, legal taxable jobs. You also need a valid social security number, a work visa, or proof of resident alien status.

Where things get murky are with under-the-table type jobs. Here in Texas, landscaping companies, roofers, and farmers employ a lot of undocumented immigrants because there's no paper trail, no getting the IRS involved, no medical insurance, and they're usually paid under minimum wage.

One of my fully American inlaws is antigovernment, doesn't believe in banks, taxes, etc., so she won't get a "normie" job. She works for cash only, and makes a living doing babysitting jobs or caretaking for peoples' elderly relatives.

In other words, @allezfred, your questions have no simple answers:lol:
 

Louis

Private citizen
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17,221
This is such a solvable problem that every other country in the world has solved. The Democrats have been moaning about this for as long as I've been alive. It's a bad look for Democrats. The endless, decades-long complaints about voter ID combined with inaction on anything that might solve the problem mean the Democrats are (1) cheating, (2) can't get anything done, or (3) both. I vote (3), and I'm happy to show any number of photo IDs to record that vote :lol:.

Meanwhile, Trump and other conspiracy theorists are able to claim elections were stolen, and there is no way to disprove these claims. Democrats wash their hands of responsibility, as usual, but they've created an environment that allows these claims to flourish. If the U.S. had any kind of sane voting laws, like almost every other country in the world, there's no way these claims could have any credibility.

Especially after 2020, I'd think that most people would accept that having an election recognized as legitimate is essential to democracy. When 1/3 of the population doesn't believe the 2020 election was legitimate, there is a problem, and that problem is not only Donald Trump. Voter ID laws are essential to the survival of the U.S.
 

DORISPULASKI

Watching submarine races
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13,056
Those countries have uniform processes. The US might as well be 50 little countries, because nothing is uniform. And each state changes its rules from time to time. Most states changed things post 9/11. Older people's IDs often did not fit those requirements.

Let's start with my youngest son He was born in Alaska just after it became a state. He got a hospital certificate, not a birth certificate. You had to pay a lot of money for a state birth certificate, and we did not get one at the time.The hospital certificate does not have a raised seal.

If he moved, and were trying to vote in one of the strict ID states, he would have to get a state certificate from Alaska. In Massachusetts, where he lives, they took his passport as proof of American citizenship. :wall: Other states will not.

An acquaintance had had his house burn down, along with his birth certificate. In due course, he had to travel to the town in VT where he was born to get a birth certificate, because Vermont required you to be there in person before they would give you (a post 9/11 rule). Not cheap!

When CT changed the requirements to get a license that could be used as ID, I had to make an extra trip to the DMV to get my driver's license renewed because they required a letter that was post marked, not metered, mailed in the last 90 days in my name. I had two letters to be safe, but the one about my pension from IBM was metered, and the other was postmarked and was addressed to Mrs. Ludwig Pulaski, which they said was not my name. I had to get someone to write me a letter and wait for it to be delivered before I could go back to the DMV to renew my license .
 

once_upon

Believer in woman's right to own healthcare decisi
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22,084
If you are homeless, you need an ID to find housing. You need an ID to get a job. You need housing to get a job to that you need an ID to get the housing to get the job. It never ends. You can't get utilities in your name eithout an ID to open a checking account. You can't open a checking account without having an ID and residence address which you can"t do without a checking account.

You can"t even begin to do any of those things without your documentation you are a person . Someone steals - beats you up and takes you SS card, or birth certificate - you are no longer a person.

You need to replace your SS card? They won't even look at, talk to you without the birth certificate. Which needs to have the raised seal on it. Which usually you have to go to the local county courthouse to get, may be easy if you still live in the state you were born in, but not really. County courthouses prior to advent of cloud storage, with thousands of paper records can burn down. No record of your birth. Or you could now live thousands of miles away from. And you have no car or money for bus.

Or you may have been a home birth with no attendant present, it still happens in poor rural isolated areas. No way to prove you exist. Once you might have been found in church records, but those aren't acceptable anymore.
For some, particularly poor and most definitely homeless, you just can't get an ID.

A vicious circle. Yes it ID privilege to say it's easy. I've heard enough stories to know it is not
 
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ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
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17,359
Meanwhile, Trump and other conspiracy theorists are able to claim elections were stolen, and there is no way to disprove these claims.
Claiming that there is no way to disprove the claim would imply that there's another conspiracy to uncover only a handful of Republicans who committed voter fraud by voting twice or voting for dead people while covering up massive voter fraud on the other side.

I will likely always believe that presenting to a person who checks your name off a piece of paper then hands you a paper ballot and presenting to another person who checks your ID and checks your name off another piece of paper before you throw your ballot into the urn, is safer than doing everything electronically. But it doesn't look like IDs are the problem in the US. (Having to wait in line for several hours probably takes care of the problem in several places anyway).
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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49,166
For another example, in many places birth certificates for children born up to '90s are a typed government form signed by appropriate parties and embossed with the official seal. We had to order new ones that are now computer printed on certificate paper and stamped with the seal because some offices accept the original birth certificates, and some do not, so kids need to bring them both to avoid an unnecessary trip.
That assumes you even have one. There are still people alive who were born at home at a time when births were recorded haphazardly. (Though that's a problem that will solve itself eventually.)

How do hourly workers get a legal job without a photo ID or Social Security card?
I am not an hourly worker but I have never had to show my social security card to get a job. Which is good because I lost it and never replaced it. 🤷 I give them my number and they put it in the system. (The card I did have specifically said it was not to be used for ID. I don't know if they still print that on them because I don't have one.)

How do hourly workers get a legal job without a photo ID or Social Security card? I remain unconvinced that there are large swathes of people walking around with no photo ID, given how many things in life require photo ID. If people can find time to vote, they can find time to get an ID. Getting an ID isn't "privilege;" it's an essential part of participating in society. If you don't want to participate in society, then don't vote. God forbid anyone take personal responsibility, follow the rules, or plan ahead :rolleyes:.
Do you realize how few people are registered to vote and how few of them vote? People can't find the time to vote. So why are they going to take even more time to go get some ID?

Meanwhile, Trump and other conspiracy theorists are able to claim elections were stolen, and there is no way to disprove these claims.
Actually, these claims have been disproven over and over. That's why 63+ lawsuits were thrown out. Just because people refuse to believe the proof, doesn't mean it's not there.

The thing about voter id is that it sounds reasonable. Until you hear the stories where some state makes a list of what counts as an id and the most common id that poor people in that state have isn't on the list. And it's on purpose to keep them from voting.

I say the people who want voter id laws are on the hook for figuring out how people can get free or very cheap ids with minimal, reasonable effort. It's not on the people who don't think they are necessary.
 

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
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8,135
How do hourly workers get a legal job without a photo ID or Social Security card? I remain unconvinced that there are large swathes of people walking around with no photo ID, given how many things in life require photo ID. If people can find time to vote, they can find time to get an ID. Getting an ID isn't "privilege;" it's an essential part of participating in society. If you don't want to participate in society, then don't vote. God forbid anyone take personal responsibility, follow the rules, or plan ahead :rolleyes:.
Posters have provided examples of some barriers in place that cause problems and sometimes extreme delays to obtain IDs. As DORISPULASKI noted, there is no uniform approach

Regarding the example I gave about birth certificates, how would you like us to take personal responsibility and plan ahead when they list "birth certificate" as the document needed? If the MVA or other government office plans to accept only one specific type of document defined as birth certificate, and it's not going to be the actual birth certificate, they ought to clearly spell it out in the written requirements along with sample images and stop wasting our time and money. That's not a personal responsibility, but a regulation writer responsibility. Interesting that you only seem to have disdain for the people who are forced to deal with the challenges of subpar government planning and implementation.

Failure to address issues like this is a failure to serve their citizens, and in some states, certainly done on purpose to create obstructions for select groups. States are acting in bad faith when they write restrictive new voter laws but don't also help create reasonable pathways to help their residents obtain the necessary IDs and specific instructions they need to vote. This is not a view limited to the cheating, can't get anything done Democrats.
Well despite all the accusations that voter fraud would be eliminated if only we had voter ID. The actual cases discovered for 2016 and 2020 have been the Republicans who voted twice or more.
The offenders also probably have plenty of IDs just like Louis or you or me.
 
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KCC

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2,322
When the IRS needed DH to prove the he is really DH, he had to video chat with some guy and show both sides of his drivers license & SS card, his passport and copies of past tax returns. I was surprised that they didnt want his fingerprints. I had to look up the process several ways to make sure it wasn't a scam because it felt like a great way to steal someone's identity. That experience convinced me that even if there was a requirement for an ID, someone will soon decide that isn't enough because it could be faked and require 2-3 more different IDs. Nothing will ever be enough.
 

Susan1

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11,134
That assumes you even have one. There are still people alive who were born at home at a time when births were recorded haphazardly. (Though that's a problem that will solve itself eventually.)
My mom was born in 1924 at home in Cincinnati. They moved to Miamisburg when she was 2. When she went to get a secretarial job at 17, there was no birth certificate to be found. Cincinnati/Hamilton County did not have a record of her birth. They had to call and officially write to the church to get her baptismal record to prove that she was born. I still have it. It's an official certificate that would be filled out at the time. It says "The records of this church certify, under date of Nov. 30, 1924 to the baptism of (my mom), born Nov. 20, 1924. Signed by the current Reverend (different than the one who it says baptized her) and dated June 21, 1941. With the church seal on it - like a notary stamp. And then it was another big hassle when she finally went to get her driver's license when she was in her 40's. Yeah, she's old enough to get her driver's license? Ask her husband and daughter and the where place she's worked for almost 30 years. I have my dad's original record of birth. (And mine.)
 
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clairecloutier

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13,233
When the IRS needed DH to prove the he is really DH, he had to video chat with some guy and show both sides of his drivers license & SS card, his passport and copies of past tax returns. I was surprised that they didnt want his fingerprints. I had to look up the process several ways to make sure it wasn't a scam because it felt like a great way to steal someone's identity. That experience convinced me that even if there was a requirement for an ID, someone will soon decide that isn't enough because it could be faked and require 2-3 more different IDs. Nothing will ever be enough.


I had to do this, too, with the IRS. It was weird, because our taxes are like the simplest ever, so I don't know why they felt the need to verify us. Anyhow, yes, it was strange.

There should be some kind of standard federal policy as to the issuance of birth certificates, and then an adult ID at age 18. (ETA: Or adult ID issued at time of citizenship approval.) Will this ever actually happen? I doubt it.
 
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KCC

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2,322
I had to do this, too, with the IRS. It was weird, because our taxes are like the simplest ever, so I don't know why they felt the need to verify us. Anyhow, yes, it was strange.

There should be some kind of standard federal policy as to the issuance of birth certificates, and then an adult ID at age 18. (ETA: Or adult ID issued at time of citizenship approval.) Will this ever actually happen? I doubt it.
Weird is a good word to explain the experience. We file jointly, yet DH was the only one that needed to verify his identity - why not me? We weren't getting a refund so it wasnt about making sure the IRS was paying the right person. The young guy on the video chat sternly told me to leave the room a few times because I couldn't help my older & slower husband to understand the very fast talking video chat guy who was sitting in a noisy room with other video chat people. If people don't have all the necessary documents or a system to video chat and show the documents, how in the world would this work?? I really don't think we accomplished anything through that process.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
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25,704
This is such a solvable problem that every other country in the world has solved. The Democrats have been moaning about this for as long as I've been alive. It's a bad look for Democrats. The endless, decades-long complaints about voter ID combined with inaction on anything that might solve the problem mean the Democrats are (1) cheating, (2) can't get anything done, or (3) both. I vote (3), and I'm happy to show any number of photo IDs to record that vote :lol:.

Meanwhile, Trump and other conspiracy theorists are able to claim elections were stolen, and there is no way to disprove these claims. Democrats wash their hands of responsibility, as usual, but they've created an environment that allows these claims to flourish. If the U.S. had any kind of sane voting laws, like almost every other country in the world, there's no way these claims could have any credibility.

Especially after 2020, I'd think that most people would accept that having an election recognized as legitimate is essential to democracy. When 1/3 of the population doesn't believe the 2020 election was legitimate, there is a problem, and that problem is not only Donald Trump. Voter ID laws are essential to the survival of the U.S.
Every single claim that Trump and the Republicans made was debunked, disproven or thrown out of the court. It is not the fault of the Democrats, nor should it be their responsibility to counteract the crap that Trump and his cult were carry on about. And then the only people who got caught committing fraud were Republicans.

BTW in Australia you do not need to present voter ID at a polling booth nor when you submit a postal vote. Turn up, give your name and vote. Or sign the envelope in front of a witness. Simple.
 

once_upon

Believer in woman's right to own healthcare decisi
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22,084
People who bang on about voter fraud (a non-issue in functioning democracies) are really trying to say that they don’t want people who don’t share their politics to vote. :shuffle:
Yes. When dad died, he had in early mail in ballot in his apartment. My brother and I knew who he was voting for. We could have filled it out and dated it 2 days before he died.

He had requested one, he received it. All legal.
He could have already mailed it in, all legal.

But he didn't. We called election office to ask what we do and they told us how to dispose on it. But they also said it probably would have been discovered by comparing dates of deaths to dates received ballots.
 

DORISPULASKI

Watching submarine races
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13,056
Yes. I know that they do compare death dates to the election dates, because I know of a case where the mom mailed it before she died, but the vote was thrown out.
 

purple skates

Shadow Dancing
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22,255
Weird is a good word to explain the experience. We file jointly, yet DH was the only one that needed to verify his identity - why not me? We weren't getting a refund so it wasnt about making sure the IRS was paying the right person. The young guy on the video chat sternly told me to leave the room a few times because I couldn't help my older & slower husband to understand the very fast talking video chat guy who was sitting in a noisy room with other video chat people. If people don't have all the necessary documents or a system to video chat and show the documents, how in the world would this work?? I really don't think we accomplished anything through that process.
You’re sure that wasn’t a scam? It sure as heck sounds like one.
 

KCC

Well-Known Member
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2,322
We got the notifications by mail, and I looked it up several ways including the IRS website. Here is the general page that mentions the video chat. https://www.irs.gov/identity-theft-fraud-scams/identity-verification-for-irs-letter-recipients
Yes, it definitely felt like a scam to me, too. It also felt like a huge privacy intrusion - facial recognition, all of the documents, a bit of our home is shown in the background, I was told to leave the room in my own house, etc. If I'm ever asked to do this in the future, I'm going to try hard to get an appointment at a local IRS office instead of doing that video thing. There has to be a better way.
 

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