Testing as an adult

Alessandra

New Member
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Hello. So I see that for test int-senior you are allowed to test as an adult if you are 21+. It says that this is one test level below. What does this exactly mean? I am going to test my junior and senior as an adult because I’ve been having a bad experience doing it at a standard level and I just think the judges are too hard.
 

gkelly

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15,676
Hello. So I see that for test int-senior you are allowed to test as an adult if you are 21+. It says that this is one test level below. What does this exactly mean? I am going to test my junior and senior as an adult because I’ve been having a bad experience doing it at a standard level and I just think the judges are too hard.


Are you talking about the US Moves in the Field and/or Freeskating tests?

The guidelines for the judges regarding these tests (for MIF see Rule 5034 in the 2020-21 USFS Rulebook) is that "For adult 21+ candidates (adult intermediate through adult senior moves in the field tests), the candidate should show the same level of achievement as that of a standard candidate at one test level below."

The wording for freeskate tests in Rule 6233 is similar.

I.e., if you're taking the Junior MIF test as 21+, you have to do the exact same moves as a standard Junior candidate and you have to do them accurately, but the level of power, edge quality, etc., that the judges will expect would be comparable to a standard Novice rather than standard Junior test.

At the top of the test forms for Junior MIF, there is a statement "The candidate must give a performance that is generally very good in all respects. Focus should be on power, flow, edge quality and line and footwork control (rule 5107). For adult 21+ and adult 50+ candidates, see rule 5034."

For Novice, it says "The candidate must give a performance that is generally good. The preciseness of the footwork should be nearly faultless, the body motion well timed and the flow and power very good. No major consistent errors should be in evidence (rule 5106). For adult 21+ and adult 50+ candidates, see rule 5034."

So if you're taking the Junior MIF test on the standard track, you have to be "very good in all respects." If you're taking it as an adult, then it just has to be "generally good."

There is similar wording on the Freeskate test forms.

Of course what those phrases mean to each individual judge may vary.
 

Alessandra

New Member
Messages
15
Are you talking about the US Moves in the Field and/or Freeskating tests?

The guidelines for the judges regarding these tests (for MIF see Rule 5034 in the 2020-21 USFS Rulebook) is that "For adult 21+ candidates (adult intermediate through adult senior moves in the field tests), the candidate should show the same level of achievement as that of a standard candidate at one test level below."

The wording for freeskate tests in Rule 6233 is similar.

I.e., if you're taking the Junior MIF test as 21+, you have to do the exact same moves as a standard Junior candidate and you have to do them accurately, but the level of power, edge quality, etc., that the judges will expect would be comparable to a standard Novice rather than standard Junior test.

At the top of the test forms for Junior MIF, there is a statement "The candidate must give a performance that is generally very good in all respects. Focus should be on power, flow, edge quality and line and footwork control (rule 5107). For adult 21+ and adult 50+ candidates, see rule 5034."

For Novice, it says "The candidate must give a performance that is generally good. The preciseness of the footwork should be nearly faultless, the body motion well timed and the flow and power very good. No major consistent errors should be in evidence (rule 5106). For adult 21+ and adult 50+ candidates, see rule 5034."

So if you're taking the Junior MIF test on the standard track, you have to be "very good in all respects." If you're taking it as an adult, then it just has to be "generally good."

There is similar wording on the Freeskate test forms.

Of course what those phrases mean to each individual judge may vary.
Thanks for the Information! And yes I meant moves in the field.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
24,662
Hello. So I see that for test int-senior you are allowed to test as an adult if you are 21+. It says that this is one test level below. What does this exactly mean? I am going to test my junior and senior as an adult because I’ve been having a bad experience doing it at a standard level and I just think the judges are too hard.
What is the feedback that you have been given by judges that makes you think the judges are too hard?
 

Alessandra

New Member
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15
What is the feedback that you have been given by judges that makes you think the judges are too hard?
I’ve just been told very different things from different judges even on the same panel. Some things I agree with like my choctaws are not the best but other things I disagree with and same with my coach. Like on my last test that was virtual one of the judges said I had weak edges coming out of my rockers and on my step sequence there was no flow when clearly there was and I kept moving so I really just don’t u set stand these judges sometimes. I am not seeing and neither is my coach seeing what they are and it’s frustrating everyone says the judges want to pass you but I really don’t think that’s always true they always try to look for something to fail you especially at the higher levels
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
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24,662
I’ve just been told very different things from different judges even on the same panel. Some things I agree with like my choctaws are not the best but other things I disagree with and same with my coach. Like on my last test that was virtual one of the judges said I had weak edges coming out of my rockers and on my step sequence there was no flow when clearly there was and I kept moving so I really just don’t u set stand these judges sometimes. I am not seeing and neither is my coach seeing what they are and it’s frustrating everyone says the judges want to pass you but I really don’t think that’s always true they always try to look for something to fail you especially at the higher levels
I can say as a judge, if you have a couple of judges they will take turns in giving feedback and they might comment on different things. That is my experience having been judged and then giving feedback as a judge.

When you talk about "no flow" what are you referring to? Or rather your perception that you had flow? Was it a lack of flow coming out of the actual turns? Did you come out of an actual rocker at half the speed that you went in? Or did you feel that the step sequence moved across the ice as a whole? Definition is important here and also the perception of the watcher.

Judges do want to pass skaters but you have to give them reasons to pass you. You also certainly want to see a better quality test at a higher level.

There was another discussion about this subject recently. I also posted comments there. Maybe read through that thread to see what was said because it does fall in line with this discussion.
 

Alessandra

New Member
Messages
15
I can say as a judge, if you have a couple of judges they will take turns in giving feedback and they might comment on different things. That is my experience having been judged and then giving feedback as a judge.

When you talk about "no flow" what are you referring to? Or rather your perception that you had flow? Was it a lack of flow coming out of the actual turns? Did you come out of an actual rocker at half the speed that you went in? Or did you feel that the step sequence moved across the ice as a whole? Definition is important here and also the perception of the watcher.

Judges do want to pass skaters but you have to give them reasons to pass you. You also certainly want to see a better quality test at a higher level.

There was another discussion about this subject recently. I also posted comments there. Maybe read through that thread to see what was said because it does fall in line with this discussion.
On my last two tries if this test I have gotten a split panel with one judge passing me and the two others failing me. I feel that judges have different perceptions and opinions about test otherwise I wouldn’t of have gotten a split panel. Do you know what thread you posted in I am interested in seeing it?
 

overedge

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On my last two tries if this test I have gotten a split panel with one judge passing me and the two others failing me. I feel that judges have different perceptions and opinions about test otherwise I wouldn’t of have gotten a split panel. Do you know what thread you posted in I am interested in seeing it?

This one: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/unexpected-fail.108225/

Judges do have different perceptions and opinions from each other, because they're not identical people. They have identical training, or they should have to be judging the same test, but judging is a subjective process so no two people are going to see things exactly the same.
 

gkelly

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15,676
Judges do have different perceptions and opinions from each other, because they're not identical people. They have identical training, or they should have to be judging the same test, but judging is a subjective process so no two people are going to see things exactly the same.

Very true.

All judges should have received the same basic training in how to judge MIF. But they will also be influenced by other things in their lives, including other aspects of skating-related training.

Some judges have done these moves themselves.
Some used to do figures.
Some have been ice dancers.

And some have only skated at lower levels themselves, or not at all if they got into judging because their kids skated, for example.

Some used to judge figures.
Some are also ice dance judges.

All of the above will affect what they expect or prioritize in terms of moves like loops and twizzles, or what bracket/counter/rocker tracings and upper body action should look like.
 

MacMadame

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I would say if you failed a test because of weak edges coming out of a turn, that seems more technical to me. But flow on the footwork might be something that would be forgiven if you tested as an adult.

If there is a judge at your rink, maybe ask them what they think about testing as an adult vs. standard. Lots of people who judge are happy to give advice like that.
 

ioana

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6,042
Just thought of something that might be useful. Back in the days when these still used to have a 6.0 passing standard rather than just + or - tenths of a point these were the passing averages

Novice 3.5
Junior 4.0
Senior 4.5

Obviously, there is no guarantee the same standard would be applied when you test as an adult, but how close were you to passing when you took this standard track? If it was within 0.2-0.3, I think there's a good change this would pass when you test as an adult. If it was closer to .4-.5, then it's possible you might need to fix more things before testing.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
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Just thought of something that might be useful. Back in the days when these still used to have a 6.0 passing standard rather than just + or - tenths of a point these were the passing averages

Novice 3.5
Junior 4.0
Senior 4.5

Obviously, there is no guarantee the same standard would be applied when you test as an adult, but how close were you to passing when you took this standard track? If it was within 0.2-0.3, I think there's a good change this would pass when you test as an adult. If it was closer to .4-.5, then it's possible you might need to fix more things before testing.
What is testing in the US or Canada these days? 6.0 or IJS?

We do IJS here so GOEs are applied to all elements. And they have to meet a number of GOE requirements. For lower tests they if they have one -5 GOE the test fails. For the higher tests they cannot have more than two -5 GOEs on any element.

For pattern tests they are meant to get at least an overall base value once all the patterns are performed. So if most patterns are base but are a couple of -1 or -2 the test can fail.

There is also the discretion factor which I have had to use when the overall standard of a test is not what it should be, particularly when they have negative GOEs on every pattern.
 

gkelly

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15,676
What is testing in the US or Canada these days? 6.0 or IJS?

I can't speak for Canada.

In the US it's a new system introduced a couple years ago that is somewhat in between.

For Moves in the Field (after the first test, which is just pass/fail), instead of having a passing average for each move based on the 6.0 system (it was 2.5 for Preliminary up to 4.5 for senior), and a required passing total that the scores for all the moves must add up to, now the scores are based on 0 as the passing standard for each test, with the option for judges to score each move +3 to -3. (This change was in the works before the ISU changed the competition GOEs to +/-5.)

Either way, some moves scored higher than the passing score can make up for other scored lower, as long as the total now comes out to 0 or above.

For freeskating tests, there are now 3 scores instead of the 2 scores under 6.0. One for elements, one for skating skills, and one for "program." Also with 0 as passing and options to score each +3 to - 3. Again, a high score in one or two of those categories can make up for a lower score in another category.

Also, now if the whole MIF or FS test averages more than +1 for each score, the that judge passes the skater with "Honors" and if it averages more than +2 they pass them with "Distinction." The official result (Retry, Pass, Honors, or Distinction) is the average of the three judges' results on the panel.
 

ioana

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6,042
What is testing in the US or Canada these days? 6.0 or IJS?

For pattern tests they are meant to get at least an overall base value once all the patterns are performed. So if most patterns are base but are a couple of -1 or -2 the test can fail.
I think that part is the same in the US. As long as the overall GOE is above passing standard, you would pass -like @gkelly explained. Since junior MITF's for adults are judged at novice standard, how close you were to passing when judged at junior standards should be a good indicator of where you would be when testing the same moves as an adult.

Here is a Senior MITF judges sheet, in case that helps


For freestyle tests, I know they also have the option of using scores from non-qualifying competitions where you skate up a level and as long as those scores are above required minimums, you can pass the test

 

Aussie Willy

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For freestyle tests, I know they also have the option of using scores from non-qualifying competitions where you skate up a level and as long as those scores are above required minimums, you can pass the test

I think we did issue a communication about that here in Australia but it was mainly for *********-19 as a lot of skaters were not getting the opportunity to test. Not sure if that has changed.
 

vesperholly

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On my last two tries if this test I have gotten a split panel with one judge passing me and the two others failing me. I feel that judges have different perceptions and opinions about test otherwise I wouldn’t of have gotten a split panel. Do you know what thread you posted in I am interested in seeing it?

On one of my dance tests recently (Viennese Waltz, a gold dance), I had one fail, one pass and one pass with honors. Figure skating!! :rofl:
 

overedge

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@Aussie Willy Skate Canada switched to using "bronze", "silver" and "gold" as its testing standards, roughly equivalent to "unsatisfactory", "satisfactory" and "excellent". Every test has a ratio of how many scores the skater has to get to pass the test, e.g. for Star 10 freeskate (the former Gold freeskate) 16 out of 18 elements have to be rated as "silver" or better for the skater to pass.
Some of the tests also have minimum scores on specific elements for passing the test, e.g. if a skater got "bronze" on timing on a dance test but "gold" on every other element, they might not pass the test.

The standards are here if anyone wants to take a look:
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
24,662
@Aussie Willy Skate Canada switched to using "bronze", "silver" and "gold" as its testing standards, roughly equivalent to "unsatisfactory", "satisfactory" and "excellent". Every test has a ratio of how many scores the skater has to get to pass the test, e.g. for Star 10 freeskate (the former Gold freeskate) 16 out of 18 elements have to be rated as "silver" or better for the skater to pass.
Some of the tests also have minimum scores on specific elements for passing the test, e.g. if a skater got "bronze" on timing on a dance test but "gold" on every other element, they might not pass the test.

The standards are here if anyone wants to take a look:
Thanks for that. I will have a look at it.
 

WOULDACOULDARETURNS

New Member
Messages
9
I’ve just been told very different things from different judges even on the same panel. Some things I agree with like my choctaws are not the best but other things I disagree with and same with my coach. Like on my last test that was virtual one of the judges said I had weak edges coming out of my rockers and on my step sequence there was no flow when clearly there was and I kept moving so I really just don’t u set stand these judges sometimes. I am not seeing and neither is my coach seeing what they are and it’s frustrating everyone says the judges want to pass you but I really don’t think that’s always true they always try to look for something to fail you especially at the higher levels
I wonder if virtual testing plays a part in this? I imagine that judging from an amateur video submission rather than live could be difficult.
I pondered taking a virtual test. There are requirements such as requiring a skating director and others present. I would prefer that they face away from the ice, and the videographer be blindfolded. I can compete in front of a crowd, but testing gives me anxiety!
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
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24,662
I wonder if virtual testing plays a part in this? I imagine that judging from an amateur video submission rather than live could be difficult.
I pondered taking a virtual test. There are requirements such as requiring a skating director and others present. I would prefer that they face away from the ice, and the videographer be blindfolded. I can compete in front of a crowd, but testing gives me anxiety!
Everyone gets nervous testing, regardless of the situation. They are all in the same boat.
 

mackiecat

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1,434
Just for those who are interested Canada does not have a separate test stream for adults. As for the flow issue. Was the flow at the end of the exercise the same as at the start If not, you will have a flow issue. Those moves in the field test sheets have very little space to make comments. They will be in short form.
yes all judges have been trained as judges the same however one judge may have judged figures, may have skated figures, may have passed their Sr Moves or might be a technical specialist. These extra experiences could make them more likely to spot incorrect edges than a judge who has little to no skating experience.
 

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