So Phil Hersh and his new disgusting trash article about 2010 men’s competition

caseyedwards

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He says Russians launched a PR campaign to damage lysacek while totally underplaying the shocking intervention by American judge joe inman and his sending emails to all judges to give Plushenko low scores
 

Colonel Green

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He says Russians launched a PR campaign to damage lysacek while totally underplaying the shocking intervention by American judge joe inman and his sending emails to all judges to give Plushenko low scores
When you consider that Plushenko received literally identical PCS to Lysacek in the free skate (and even that was being quite generous), it would be hard to "underplay" it since it clearly didn't affect the outcome.
 

Tony Wheeler

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And, since it's been discussed to death a million times- the narrative that you want @caseyedwards is that Inman came up with this all on his own. In fact, Plushenko is the one who said it and even brought Brian Joubert down with him in the process. I think it's a valid question when someone says 'we don't have any transitions'.
 

caseyedwards

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All ISU judge leaders and leaders of ISU generally should only say one thing to judges ! “Read the manual and judge what skater does on the ice!” Never to “read an interview with a skater and judge the skater what they said in the interview” and not what they do on the ice. Inman is disgusting trash and he was working for lysacek to win and hersh calling Russians but not Americans political is disgraceful
 

meggonzo

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All ISU judge leaders and leaders of ISU generally should only say one thing to judges ! “Read the manual and judge what skater does on the ice!” Never to “read an interview with a skater and judge the skater what they said in the interview” and not what they do on the ice. Inman is disgusting trash and he was working for lysacek to win and hersh calling Russians but not Americans political is disgraceful
If they judged what the skater did on the ice, Plushenko's PCS scores would have been lower. :shuffle:
 

caseyedwards

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And, since it's been discussed to death a million times- the narrative that you want @caseyedwards is that Inman came up with this all on his own. In fact, Plushenko is the one who said it and even brought Brian Joubert down with him in the process. I think it's a valid question when someone says 'we don't have any transitions'.
Who cares what he said see what he does on the ice. I see changes in direction of the blade and sometimes a 3 turn or whatever
 

nylynnr

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The Plushenko-Lysacek showdown is one of the few times I remember U.S. people outmaneuvering Russians. Whatever information circulated about "transitions" -- which Mishin held in scorn, and judging by Tukt's programs, still does -- was countered by complaints that Lysacek under rotated his axel. At Skate America in Lake Placid, Mishin sat behind the tech panel, stood up after Lysacek skated and ostentatiously leaned over, as if to check if they were going to call a downgrade. (They didn't.) He also bitched at length about Plushenko skating early in the short program, claiming that judges would hold down the marks.

Inman's email hurt Weir more than Plushenko, IIRC. Transitions weren't as big a deal in 2010 and they are just one of five PCS. Overconfidence cost Plushenko gold, all he and Mishin had to do was design the layout of his free a bit better. But whatever Plushenko lost in 2010, he was compensated for in 2014, when IMO some of his scores in the team event (spins, in particular) were too high.
 

caseyedwards

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If they judged what the skater did on the ice, Plushenko's PCS scores would have been lower. :shuffle:
Two judges gave him 5’s. Most judges agreed what he did on the ice Was 7 worthy! ISU book defined transitions as any body movement upper or lower between any technical element. Inman wanted all judges to think of transitions as something done before a jump
 

gkelly

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Inman wanted all judges to think of transitions as something done before a jump
How do you know he wanted that?


At the time, the criteria for Transitions were
Variety
Difficulty
Quality
Intricacy

It would be possible for a strong skater to have good quality to what s/he did between elements but not much difficulty, variety, or intricacy.

Intricacy might also apply to one element leading directly into another -- sometimes but not necessarily jumps. E.g., step sequence directly into spin.

That criterion has since been replaced by different wording about continuity of movement. So a skater who doesn't do much besides crossovers, simple turns, and arm movements between the elements but does it all fluidly and connectedly (to coin a word) might score higher under the current guidelines than 10 years ago.

Nevertheless, if difficulty and variety are minimal, the TR score should not be high.
 

caseyedwards

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The Plushenko-Lysacek showdown is one of the few times I remember U.S. people outmaneuvering Russians. Whatever information circulated about "transitions" -- which Mishin held in scorn, and judging by Tukt's programs, still does -- was countered by complaints that Lysacek under rotated his axel. At Skate America in Lake Placid, Mishin sat behind the tech panel, stood up after Lysacek skated and ostentatiously leaned over, as if to check if they were going to call a downgrade. (They didn't.) He also bitched at length about Plushenko skating early in the short program, claiming that judges would hold down the marks.

Inman's email hurt Weir more than Plushenko, IIRC. Transitions weren't as big a deal in 2010 and they are just one of five PCS. Overconfidence cost Plushenko gold, all he and Mishin had to do was design the layout of his free a bit better. But whatever Plushenko lost in 2010, he was compensated for in 2014, when IMO some of his scores in the team event (spins, in particular) were too high.
Of course. I mean in a total ideal world and if Plushenko really wanted to win gold he may not have done any quads at all. Copied exactly what buttle and lysacek did or what Takahahsi was planning. Of course doing quad triples was very dumb and idiotic and anti COP. Because quad triple /triple lutz is no different mathematically than quad and triple lutz triple toe

So ideal plauhenko sp jumps maybe if he felt he needed to do quads was
4T
3lz -3T
3A

And then free skate
Just solo 4T
3lz-3T
3A
Halfway
3A-2t-2lp
3lz-2t
3lp
3flp
2a


But of course if I was designing a Plushenko program to win Olympics in 2010 there would have been no quads at all!
 

caseyedwards

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How do you know he wanted that?


At the time, the criteria for Transitions were
Variety
Difficulty
Quality
Intricacy

It would be possible for a strong skater to have good quality to what s/he did between elements but not much difficulty, variety, or intricacy.

Intricacy might also apply to one element leading directly into another -- sometimes but not necessarily jumps. E.g., step sequence directly into spin.

That criterion has since been replaced by different wording about continuity of movement. So a skater who doesn't do much besides crossovers, simple turns, and arm movements between the elements but does it all fluidly and connectedly (to coin a word) might score higher under the current guidelines than 10 years ago.

Nevertheless, if difficulty and variety are minimal, the TR score should not be high.
Because he was in charge of making an ISU video that recommended judges score transitions that way! And I forgot he made the decision to put Plushenko as an example of a bad skater wrt transitions
 

nylynnr

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Of course. I mean in a total ideal world and if Plushenko really wanted to win gold he may not have done any quads at all. Copied exactly what buttle and lysacek did or what Takahahsi was planning. Of course doing quad triples was very dumb and idiotic and anti COP. Because quad triple /triple lutz is no different mathematically than quad and triple lutz triple toe

So ideal plauhenko sp jumps maybe if he felt he needed to do quads was
4T
3lz -3T
3A

And then free skate
Just solo 4T
3lz-3T
3A
Halfway
3A-2t-2lp
3lz-2t
3lp
3flp
2a
Casey -- please, you know a lot more than this. It would have taken just a few tweaks, and nothing to do with quads. I respect your knowledge but you've lost the battle .... and won the war: multiple quads of different types are needed today.
 

giselle23

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Nothing was worse than Plushenko's trash-talking after he lost. (Well, maybe the way he jumped up on the winner's podium at the medal ceremony was.)
 

caseyedwards

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Casey -- please, you know a lot more than this. It would have taken just a few tweaks, and nothing to do with quads. I respect your knowledge but you've lost the battle .... and won the war: multiple quads of different types are needed today.
Yes he did leave out a three jump combo from his free skate all season long! It’s very clear the 3lz-2t could have been a 3lz-2t-2lp no problem! And a satisfactory answer of why plushenko never doing a three jump combo ever that season I don’t remember! Maybe because he did 4t-3T-2lp and didn’t want to move three jump combo to a triple?


Plus why when you can do a quad triple do you need to do a three jump combo? Why was quad triple so so so worthless?
 

Tony Wheeler

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I interviewed one of the judges less than a month after the event, and one thing stuck with me. He said people were complaining that Plushenko did the quad and because of that and that alone, he should’ve won. He then encouraged Adrian Schultheiss of Sweden to be petitioning since he landed the best quad of the night and didn’t even finish in the top 10, let alone win.
 

bardtoob

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All ISU judge leaders and leaders of ISU generally should only say one thing to judges ! “Read the manual and judge what skater does on the ice!” Never to “read an interview with a skater and judge the skater what they said in the interview” and not what they do on the ice. Inman is disgusting trash and he was working for lysacek to win and hersh calling Russians but not Americans political is disgraceful
Wasn't an Eastern Bloc judge's claim to the ISU that he could not read the manual how Sotnikova won in 2014 and that judge received a subsequent demotion.
 

nylynnr

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Plus why when you can do a quad triple do you need to do a three jump combo? Why was quad triple so so so worthless?
It is not the job of a coach or athlete to put out a program with the elements arranged, the way he or she believes ought to be arranged; it is their job, rather, to fit the athlete's skills into the scale of values in effect at that time. Mishin, and by extension Plushenko, failed to do so, pure and simple. And I salute you for drawing so many into this decade-old discussion.
 

ChelleC

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If they judged what the skater did on the ice, Plushenko's PCS scores would have been lower. :shuffle:
If they judged what happened on the ice Plushenko's jumps would have been given negative GOE.

And don't get me started on the PCS. Frankly Plushenko should not have been on podium at all.
 

nylynnr

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Wasn't an Eastern Bloc judge's claim to the ISU that he could not read the manual how Sotnikova won in 2014 and that judge received a subsequent demotion.
IIRC Balkov was demoted a few years later on the grounds his English had deteriorated, which some thought simply a handy excuse. He can't judge ISU championship events but I think he's still judging Grand Prix events, or was until relatively recently.
 

aliona22

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I have no problem with Plush getting that uber-inflated PCS when Lysacek was getting credit for three fully rotated triple axels... with positive GOE no less!
 

allezfred

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At Skate America in Lake Placid, Mishin sat behind the tech panel, stood up after Lysacek skated and ostentatiously leaned over, as if to check if they were going to call a downgrade. (They didn't.) He also bitched at length about Plushenko skating early in the short program, claiming that judges would hold down the marks.
Plushenko didn't compete at 2009 Skate America. :confused:
 

nylynnr

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769
Plushenko didn't compete at 2009 Skate America. :confused:
Mishin was there, as was Lysacek .... The bitching about skating the short early refers to Vancouver; he insisted judges would hold their marks, and perhaps they did, but I don't remember thinking Plushenko was underscored.
 

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