Should women be allowed to do a quad in the SP?

[Vash01]

Many Women are landing quads now. Some are working on those. They are already doing 3A in the SP. Should they be allowed to do quads in the SP? It is a risk vs reward, just like the 3A.

The question is if yes, when? I think they are ready right now (meaning the 2022-2023 season).

Currently three countries have skaters that can land quads - Russia (4?) USA (Alysa), Japan (Rika?). Four countries have skaters that can land 3A. I see the Koreans working on a quad in the near future. A skater from Kazakstan (sp?) landed a quad in the LP a few years ago. I think it is gaining momentum.

Should it be allowed in the SP, for the same risk vs reward as the 3A currently has?

 

[Coco]

Oh.....I never thought about option 5. What if it was only allowed in the combo? So if they couldn't tack anything on to it, they would have to take a zero for an invalid element?

 

[Karen-W]

No. There are not enough skaters able to land quads consistently. They get more than enough points to win in the FS as it is.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

Oh.....I never thought about option 5. What if it was only allowed in the combo? So if they couldn't tack anything on to it, they would have to take a zero for an invalid element?

It would be like why they force little junior girls to do a 3axel-3toe in the short instead of just a 3axel that seniors can do. And why should the girls be treated differently than the guys? It reeks of sexism to me, frankly. And ageism in the juniors.

Put the quads in the SP. Why should a 3axeling senior get the benefit since she doesn't have to put it in combo either? Just let them perform what the boys do. I think the girls will be able to handle and acquit themselves well.

 

[miffy]

I think it should be like the men - so they can do a quad as the solo jump, and/or in the combo.

 

[love_skate2011]

why is there a barrier for women always that have to be cracked ?

 

[Vash01]

No. There are not enough skaters able to land quads consistently. They get more than enough points to win in the FS as it is.

How many men were landing quads consistently before they allowed men to do quads and just a few years later more than one quad, and quad combinations? When they allowed it, more men started challenging themselves.

This is what my memory tells me. I will need to research it further for accuracy.

The first quad - 1989 (Browning). Boitano was the second to attempt it but he two footed his.

In 1992 only Stojko was landing a quad. Browning landed it twice (1989 and 1990 but not later, IIRC). I think Urmanov had landed it just once (1992).

In 1994, only Stojko. He was doing 4t3t by then. He became an inspiration to others, IMO.

I think a Chinese skater was doing quads but I don't remember his name and years.

1998- Kulik and Stojko (though he didnt do it due to injury), maybe a Chinese skater too?

Goebel (Goeble?) was doing quad salchow as a junior, around 1999 (can't remember the exact year)

2002 - Yagudin, Plushenko, Joubert, Goebel, were landing it consistently. Others had attempted (Abt, Eldredge). I think there were a few more.

It spread like fire from that point. I think women are close to the 2002 point now. More and more women will work on it.

What I don't remember is the exact year when men were allowed a quad in the SP. I know it was not allowed in 1998, and I think it was allowed in 2002 (Will need to watch Yagudin's Winter. I think Plush fell on his quad in the SP).

So was it in 1999 or 2000 or 2001? I think it may have been 2000 or 2001.

 

[Vash01]

It would be like why they force little junior girls to do a 3axel-3toe in the short instead of just a 3axel that seniors can do. And why should the girls be treated differently than the guys? It reeks of sexism to me, frankly. And ageism in the juniors.

Put the quads in the SP. Why should a 3axeling senior get the benefit since she doesn't have to put it in combo either? Just let them perform what the boys do. I think the girls will be able to handle and acquit themselves well.

I am not saying it should be a requirement, rather allowing the skaters what they can do, and not holding them back. I am not for age requirement either. If they can do the jumps, let them. If there are medical issues they can be addressed by doctors and parents.

I was thinking of Midori Ito. At age 8 she could do all the triple jumps, except the 3A. In the dark ages (1988 and earlier) 'Ladies' were allowed to do just One triple jump, in combination, in the SP. The other jump had to be a double. Imagine if the girls were held at that limit?

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

why is there a barrier for women always that have to be cracked ?

I know, right? It upsets me as a man that women are being unfairly treated in this instance. I won't even get into the PCS. But why should a woman with a quad not be allowed to do it, if it's okay for a man to? I have never been a fan of putting restrictions on people, and I can't believe more women in the sport aren't more outraged about this, if you want my two cents. If I had a daughter in skating, skating for Monaco of course via the Russian Ballet, I'd be the noisiest and most obnoxious SkateDadfromHell until this was fixed. (I'm sure you could envision that! lol)

 

[zigzig]

yeah they already made the men and women program lengths the same. they should make the requirements genderless. I guess that would mean giving men the option of a layback too? is that it?

 

[beckab81]

If they allow quads in he SP, they REALLY need to adjust the PCS factoring - if they're going to do the same tech as the men, they should get the same PCS.

 

[Seerek]

1998-99 quads were allowed as the solo jump
2000-01 quads were allowed in the combination

15 men had a quadruple combination planned in the 2002 Olympic Salt Lake City short program (Emanuel Sandhu would have made it 16 had he competed).

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

1998-99 quads were allowed as the solo jump
2000-01 quads were allowed in the combination

15 men had a quadruple combination planned in the 2002 Olympic Salt Lake City short program (Emanuel Sandhu would have made it 16 had he competed).

You just beat me to it!! Thank you for posting this. It was driving me crazy and I was waiting, and waiting... so I looked it up myself. Lol

 

[Karen-W]

We aren't anywhere close to half of the field landing quads in the FS. Once we hit that threshold then we can discuss whether or not it should be allowed in the SP.

 

[Vash01]

We aren't anywhere close to half of the field landing quads in the FS. Once we hit that threshold then we can discuss whether or not it should be allowed in the SP.

I don't believe half of the men's field was landing quads when they allowed it in their SP. More than half the men Still cannot do the quads. No reason to hold back the women.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

We aren't anywhere close to half of the field landing quads in the FS. Once we hit that threshold then we can discuss whether or not it should be allowed in the SP.

But why should that even matter? If a woman can do a "man's" jump, she should be allowed to do it. End of story. At least it's that clearcut for me.

 

[kwanfan1818]

There should be no difference in the rules for Men and Women, especially since the number of jumping passes and the program lengths are the same for both genders. Senior Women=Senior Men, Junior Women=Junior Men. I don't care how many of each are actually doing them, or used to do them until the rules/points value changed and many fewer were/will be attempting them, or started to do them again.

 

[Karen-W]

But why should that even matter? If a woman can do a "man's" jump, she should be allowed to do it. End of story. At least it's that clearcut for me.

It doesn't have anything to do with whether a single or a handful of women can do a "man's" jump, it has to do with the parity in the field overall. Women who can land a quad or multiple quads are highly advantaged in the FS. There's no need to give them any further advantage. Even Tuktamysheva with her three 3As across the SP and FS doesn't have as high of a BV as Shcherbakova and her one quad in the FS.

Furthermore, the comparison to when quads were introduced in the Men's SP is irrelevant since the judging system has changed entirely.

 

[Orm Irian]

They rushed adding it for the men, they shouldn't repeat the mistake for the women just because they did it once. When two different senior women from each continent that fields international skaters (North America, South America, Africa, Oceania, Asia, Europe) have landed a fully ratified quad in the free program, then they should introduce it to the short, otherwise it's not just perpetuating but supporting and encouraging one of the greatest inequalities in the sport - access to money and resources.

Then if they want to hurry the inclusion, they can do it by investing a lot of time, money and resources into regions that they're currently happy to leave to struggle as also-rans who pad the line-up without threatening the status quo.

 

[Karen-W]

They rushed adding it for the men, they shouldn't repeat the mistake for the women just because they did it once. When two different senior women from each continent that fields international skaters (North America, South America, Africa, Oceania, Asia, Europe) have landed a fully ratified quad in the free program, then they should introduce it to the short, otherwise it's not just perpetuating but supporting and encouraging one of the greatest inequalities in the sport - access to money and resources.

Then if they want to hurry the inclusion, they can do it by investing a lot of time, money and resources into regions that they're currently happy to leave to struggle as also-rans who pad the line-up without threatening the status quo.

I don't know that I'd go so far as to include South America or Africa since those continents rarely even manage to qualify skaters to 4CCs, but I'd be willing to support including Oceania since Australia & New Zealand at least usually manage 2-3 women at 4CCs and at least 1 at Worlds between them every year.

 

[gkelly]

How many men were landing quads consistently before they allowed men to do quads and just a few years later more than one quad, and quad combinations? When they allowed it, more men started challenging themselves.

This is what my memory tells me. I will need to research it further for accuracy.

The first quad - 1989 (Browning). Boitano was the second to attempt it but he two footed his.

In 1992 only Stojko was landing a quad. Browning landed it twice (1989 and 1990 but not later, IIRC). I think Urmanov had landed it just once (1992).

Browning's first was 1988 Worlds.

Close but not quite clean attempts by Sabovcik and Boitano in the mid-1980s.

Urmanov also had a couple of clean or nearly clean attempts in 1991.

Petr Barna and Konstantin Kostin at 1992 Olympics.

In 1994, only Stojko. He was doing 4t3t by then. He became an inspiration to others, IMO.

I think a Chinese skater was doing quads but I don't remember his name and years.

1998- Kulik and Stojko (though he didnt do it due to injury), maybe a Chinese skater too?

Goebel (Goeble?) was doing quad salchow as a junior, around 1999 (can't remember the exact year)

Min Zhang landed a clean quad at 1994 Olympics. He didn't have a 3A at that time and was not close to a top-10 placement.

Kulik landed his first clean attempt at the 1997 Champion Series Final, same event where Urmanov landed his last clean one in competition after 5 years, and Stojko got the first clean 4-3.

Zhengxin Guo was the first to do two quad toes in the same free skate, which he did at 1997 Worlds and 1998 Olympics.

Yagudin had a couple clean quads in the 97-98 season, and Plushenko had some failed or less-than-clean attempts.

There had also been occasional not clean attempts by other skaters on rare occasions, including salchow and lutz, but not necessarily internationally.

I think I can name about 5 other guys who had attempted at least one quad somewhere and there were probably a couple more who tried at even less prominent competitions I wasn't aware of. Plenty more in practices that never materialized in competition.

Goebel got the first clean quad salchow at the end of the 1998 season at the JGP final.


Quads were first allowed in the senior men's SP in the 1998-99 season, same year 3A was allowed for the solo axel. Quads were only allowed as the solo jump at that time. It was supposed to be preceded by steps or other connecting moves, but few of the guys attempting them did much if anything leading into those SP quads.

Min Zhang, again, was the first to land a successful quad in the SP at 1999 Four Continents.

I believe it was 2000-01 that quad combinations were first allowed in the men's short program.

 

[Deleted member 80234]

Many Women are landing quads now. Some are working on those. They are already doing 3A in the SP. Should they be allowed to do quads in the SP? It is a risk vs reward, just like the 3A.

The question is if yes, when? I think they are ready right now (meaning the 2022-2023 season).

Currently three countries have skaters that can land quads - Russia (4?) USA (Alysa), Japan (Rika?). Four countries have skaters that can land 3A. I see the Koreans working on a quad in the near future. A skater from Kazakstan (sp?) landed a quad in the LP a few years ago. I think it is gaining momentum.

Should it be allowed in the SP, for the same risk vs reward as the 3A currently has?

I don’t think encouraging even more rotations that aren’t possible with typical female puberty is helpful for making the sport watchable. For that matter, really young guys can also do quads sometimes- but I tend to find them more interesting with time - Yuzuru 2018 was far more watchable than Yuzuru 2014, I think, and Nathan Chen of 2021 Worlds far better than years prior.

 

[tony]

Yes, the women should ? be able to attempt a quadruple (or two) in the short program at this point.

Ito and Harding were the only skaters trying triple Axel as part of a combination way back when the double Axel had to be the solo jump. Even Angela Derochie in 1998 tried a triple Axel in combo. They got away with this because of the term ‘triple’ having to be part of a combination, and a decade before we would see the next Axels done successfully. But, they still had the option to take the high risk and distance themselves.

When the ISU opened up the quad in the short program for men, hardly anyone tried it that first year and it wasn’t like anyone besides Stojko really landed them consistently at the point the ISU did it. Goebel went from landing his first one to landing 3 in a program in one season. The Chinese men started to get really consistent with them. The handful of Russians were all trying them, etc. But then, as already pointed out, half of the field was trying it by the 2002 Olympics just a few seasons later. I’m not going to suggest that half of the women’s field will try it just because they start allowing it in an SP, but the option should still be there.

 

[tony]

They rushed adding it for the men, they shouldn't repeat the mistake for the women just because they did it once. When two different senior women from each continent that fields international skaters (North America, South America, Africa, Oceania, Asia, Europe) have landed a fully ratified quad in the free program, then they should introduce it to the short, otherwise it's not just perpetuating but supporting and encouraging one of the greatest inequalities in the sport - access to money and resources.

Yeah sure. How many skaters from South America and Africa have landed a quad in the mens field? ? The only African ISU members are South Africa and Morocco.

Should the men go back to no quads allowed to wait for these countries? Ridiculous argument.

BTW- I’m sure our Aussie friends on the board were quite happy to see the quad allowed in the short for the men because Mr. Anthony Liu ended up with a reliable one by the end of his career. Let’s not forget that

 

[danafan]

An interesting comparison is when they started to allow women to do the triple axel as the axel jump in the short, which was IIRC in 2011. Very few women had even landed the triple axel by that point and I think Mao was the only one actually doing it at that time. There are more women landing quads now than were landing the triple axel then. Food for thought.

 

[Cachoo]

Question: Why are they not allowed now? Is it fear of Russian dominance or is it fear that skaters who are so young will continue to dominate?

 

[Karen-W]

Look, until more than the Russian women are landing quads consistently, this is not something that is going to pass the ISU Congress. The situation between the Men a quarter century ago when the ISU decided to allow quads in the SP is not the same as today. There are, to my recollection, exactly two US women who have attempted a quad in competition - Liu and Kalin. How many Japanese, Korean, or Canadian women are attempting quads? That would be a big, fat ZERO this season. So, why should any of those feds support something that will only make it harder for their own skaters to win? It is absolutely not in their self-interest to allow this until they have their own skaters routinely able to land quads.

Furthermore, there are a lot of questions and far more caution nowadays with regard to over-training injuries cutting short careers as well as a real question about whether or not any of these skaters will retain their quads post-puberty. Once we get past skaters like Tursy having her career ended before she turned twenty, or Quad Queen Sasha able to make it through an entire season, or Quad Queen Kamila still landing quads when she's nineteen or twenty, as well as the juniors coming up behind these women also showing some sort of longevity with regard to mastery of the jump, then we might see it allowed in the SP. Until then, not happening.

 

[maatTheViking]

I think they need to think about the PCS multiplier first.

I'm in full favor of not disallowing women for doing more difficult things. To me it makes sense in general to have a LEAST requirement, but not a max (for seniors at least). If someone can do a quad axel (man or woman), why should it not be allowed in the short?

but the PCS multiplier means that women with higher Base Value gets a higher advantage. Jason Brown can Skating Skill himself somewhere without a quad in the SP, because his SS is multiplied with 1.00, Satoko Miyahara has a taller order, since her SS is only multiplied with 0.8. A 4T from Shcherbakova and Chen both have the same BV.

Outside of this, the +GOE for 'omg she landed a quad/3a' needs to be put under control, but that's a different sort of discussion, akin to the PCS/TES seemingly rising together

I'm not sure the factoring can be solved though, because this means in a field where few of the ladies has a quad/3a, the PCS then becomes much more important? (otoh, maybe this will make skating more enjoyable to watch...)

 

[Karen-W]

I think they need to think about the PCS multiplier first.

I'm in full favor of not disallowing women for doing more difficult things. To me it makes sense in general to have a LEAST requirement, but not a max (for seniors at least). If someone can do a quad axel (man or woman), why should it not be allowed in the short?

but the PCS multiplier means that women with higher Base Value gets a higher advantage. Jason Brown can Skating Skill himself somewhere without a quad in the SP, because his SS is multiplied with 1.00, Satoko Miyahara has a taller order, since her SS is only multiplied with 0.8. A 4T from Shcherbakova and Chen both have the same BV.

Outside of this, the +GOE for 'omg she landed a quad/3a' needs to be put under control, but that's a different sort of discussion, akin to the PCS/TES seemingly rising together

I'm not sure the factoring can be solved though, because this means in a field where few of the ladies has a quad/3a, the PCS then becomes much more important? (otoh, maybe this will make skating more enjoyable to watch...)

Maybe increase the PCS factor to .9? That would at least help offset the women who have a quad/3a and we could see if/how that affects the standings a la Jason Brown in the men.

 

[tony]

Look, until more than the Russian women are landing quads consistently, this is not something that is going to pass the ISU Congress. The situation between the Men a quarter century ago when the ISU decided to allow quads in the SP is not the same as today. There are, to my recollection, exactly two US women who have attempted a quad in competition - Liu and Kalin. How many Japanese, Korean, or Canadian women are attempting quads? That would be a big, fat ZERO this season. So, why should any of those feds support something that will only make it harder for their own skaters to win? It is absolutely not in their self-interest to allow this until they have their own skaters routinely able to land quads.

Could you imagine gymnastics Federations whining about how Simone Biles was going to win everything anyways so not only would the difficulty scores drop, but the elements she does to set her far and above everyone would just suddenly be prohibited? I don't follow Russian gymnastics boards, but I suppose there are fans somewhere still complaining about how far ahead she was the majority of the time. Yet all across North American media and social media, we saw tons of (actual) fans complaining that reducing her difficulty scores wasn't fair.

There are always going to be athletes that are above and beyond in talent and skill level compared to everyone else. This isn't exclusive to figure skating, and IMO a lot of people forget that just because a quad is potentially allowed in the short program doesn't mean the skaters will deliver on it every time. It's still big risk. As @danafan pointed out, when the ISU finally passed the triple Axel as an individual jump possibility in the women's short programs, it wasn't like skaters from all over the world were even planning on attempting them at that time.