Second Democratic Debate

tracylynn

Well-Known Member
Messages
921
For all the complaining about Harris’ comment (to which: :rolleyes:) why wasn’t Biden prepared with a better answer?

First of all, let me apologize as I do not know how to quote multiple posts in a response so I'm sorry about multiple posts.

I think the issue with Harris, at least for me, was the fact that she tried to make it seem like her attack was spontaneous when it wasn't. Both her and Booker had been talking about Biden and his relationship with some previous senators so most people knew she would bring it up. Plus, tweeting that picture during that moment during the debate and then selling it on a T-shirt the very next morning just confirmed that everything was planned. However, in her defense, I can see her having all this planned because she is an attorney.

As for Biden, I'm just guessing here, but maybe he felt that since he was the frontrunner and was in the lead that the debate would be easy for him and that he would not be attacked the way he was. He totally was unprepared for it and that is his and his team's fault. He needs to realized that everyone is aiming for him and he has to do a better job in responding and attacking.

I think it was Maher and Seth McFarlane that said that they wonder it the candidates would have acted the way they did if there was no audience. IMO, it was like a classroom. You have a student answering a question and then you have students raising their hands and speaking out of turn and yelling. Hopefully, the next debate goes smoother for all.
 

topaz

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,350
By a landslide, Mayor Pete is my choice. Then Andrew Yang but, unfortunately.he was given almost no air time last night.

Wow, both candidates are completely different. Mayor Pete is a centrist and Andrew Yang is much more progressive.
 

Susan1

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,363
First of all, let me apologize as I do not know how to quote multiple posts in a response so I'm sorry about multiple posts.
Don't worry about it! Just about everybody does it.

But I didn't know how for a long time either. Someone, I forget who, probably Prancer, instructed me.
Every time you click on the +quote at the bottom, you will see "message added to multi quote". (Or highlight whatever parts of a message you want to quote. A blue box will be there that says "+quote" and "reply". Click on +quote.) Then when you are ready, underneath the box you type in there is a box that says "Insert quotes". Everything you added to the multi quote will be there and you can pick which ones you want to hit "quote message" or all of them.
 

Japanfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
21,750
First of all, let me apologize as I do not know how to quote multiple posts in a response so I'm sorry about multiple posts.
I think there is a quicker way to quote multiple posts than the way I do it, but my way is really easy.

Assuming you have replied to one post, just copy the other post(s) you want to quote, then paste it into your reply in the reply box. You can scroll through all the posts in a thread without losing the text you've copied in the reply box.

Or if you have posted already and want to add to that post by replying to other posts, you use the 'edit' option to paste the post/s into your post.
 

PRlady

Nerdy flack
Messages
32,820
I don’t think anyone votes solely on policy positions. Some of Warren’s are too far left for me but I strongly support her, because I think she has the brains, temperament and honesty to be a good president. She’s also not assembled out of artificial parts like Hillary, which is becoming more and more obvious to lots of people.

I like Mayor Pete’s affect but think he’s the wrong choice for some of the reasons Matry listed. Klobuchar is smart enough but the staff abuse is a deal killer. Biden was skeevy in the ‘80s when he first ran and is a far worse choice now, not based on policy so much as his record and message.

In other words, even DC people go with their gut.
 

Vagabond

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,217
Some of Warren’s are too far left for me but I strongly support her, because I think she has the brains, temperament and honesty to be a good president. She’s also not assembled out of artificial parts like Hillary, which is becoming more and more obvious to lots of people.
Eys.

One things about Warren that impresses me is that she is the rare candidate who draws a distinction between achievable targets and aspirational goals, as exemplified here.
 

barbarafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,316
I know this is off topic, but thank you. I will check into that. I had both internal and external radiation along with chemo. As my doctor said, my bowels are basically fried. LOL! When I tell my doctors about forgetting things, they just look at me. They don't take me seriously. Even when I complained about having severe abdominal pain, they just look at me.

This is why healthcare is an area I am so interested in. Fortunately for me, I have a good job with good insurance even though my prescriptions cost keep going up and up. But, if I was still at my previous job, I would not have insurance. I probably would have just let the cancer take me away because there would be no way I could afford the treatments and surgery.
And as you can see on some of these posts if Canada can do it so can the USA...Take away the line my pockets at every step in the US for hospital care, doctors and drugs and it can be done. We had medicare when I had my cancer. A very small amount was taken off my pay to go to government...really small to pay for medicare. I described briefly the procedures in my other post I underwent...I was seen by 2 surgeons, a chemo specialist twice weekly, a radiologist cancer specialist 2 or 3 times a week...a dietition every 2nd day..the Bracciotherapy involved a 3 day hospital stay. So far all I have mentioned cost zero dollars....Costs to me...1)parking at hospital 2 times when I could not find a parking spot on the street 2 x $10.00= $20.00 which I could use as a deduction on income tax. 2)2 times at the end of chemo had sores in my mouth and pharm. near hospital had a special soothing mixture to gargle with which was developed for exactly that..It was about $5.00 a bottle so $10.00. I needed pain killers (codeine)for about 9 weeks of the radiation. I don't remember what it cost but it was not very expensive. I then never saw a doctor for many yrs so then they made money on me. Only problem is (everything not extremely serious is a big wait) but they are working on it to improve. Your insurance (either with a company or on your own) covers things like dental, fast turnaround for tests instead of waiting months for things like MRI's. Some tests your doctor might be able to do at his/her office which you could use your insurance to pay or wait a bit longer and have done for free at hospital.
cosmetic surgery -private or company insurance. Hospital stays medicare does not cover private rooms or often semi-private of 2 people so upgrade with your paid insurance. Waits at hospital emergency can be many hrs.but in all fairness trial and error they now have triages at hospitals and depending on severity and pain you could see a doctor within 10-15mins or if smaller pain and discomfort could be 2 to 12hrs. I can testify the 3rd time I returned to hospital within 18hrs with my 3rd shoulder dislocation I went to triage and never went back to waiting room. The triage nurse took me right back to emergency doctor in the ward and after a phone call to head of orthopedics I was asleep within 15 mins while they placed my shoulder. I had left for the hospital at 11:30am and I was on my way home by 4:00pm.
This is in MTL. Quebec. I should mention though that if you have been diagnosed with something serious like cancer you really get rushed through the system to get your treatments started right away and/or any surgeries needed.

Anyways sorry healthcare in the states gets me really carried away. I can't believe what corrupt morons head it.

@tracylynn if you want to start a private conversation re: your frying contact me...I may have some helpful advice who knows...but I am useless at starting a conversation properly but once started I can respond ok.
 

barbarafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,316
For all the complaining about Harris’ comment (to which: :rolleyes:) why wasn’t Biden prepared with a better answer?
MY opinion on that was she really caught him by surprise. He liked and respected her and never thought that kind of attack would come from her. His face looked shocked. Her performance was so practiced and perfected it was not spur of the moment emotion. He will not be caught by her like that again.He has her measure.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
29,856
Well still, he should have had an answer for it since he was the one who did it. Even caseyedwards gave a better response.
 

Japanfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
21,750
And as you can see on some of these posts if Canada can do it so can the USA...Take away the line my pockets at every step in the US for hospital care, doctors and drugs and it can be done.
I'm not sure the Canadian system would work in the US, which has a much larger population.

You've described getting excellent care when you had cancer, and that doesn't surprise me. But our healthcare system is kind of in a crisis. There is a shortage of doctors. You haven't been able to get the names of GPs taking new patients in my city for two years. My GP is in a neighboring municipality, which still does give names.

A lot of physician care is going to the walk-ins, presumably because those are cheaper to run. I don't know how walk-ins handle follow-up care when tests and such need to be done.

I allowed myself to be manipulated out of continuing to attend a community clinic, by a doctor. I really regret that because I liked the clinic, and there was a lot of female doctors there.

I've not been able to find a female GP since my last once left her practice. She was replaced by a male. And even though a new female GP has since joined the clinic, they won't let me switch from the male GP to her. I guess female doctors are in short supply.

I have an appointment with a male OB-GYN next week, and really would have preferred a female, but it was a six month wait.
 
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canbelto

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,118
"Unprepared" is a good way to describe Biden's whole campaign. He always seems unprepared for how he comes across, and that's not a good look in a candidate.

As for Harris I think she checks a lot of boxes but right now she's lacking one critical thing: warmth. I noticed that in the debate.
 

barbarafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,316
I'm not sure the Canadian system would work in the US, which has a much larger population.

You've described getting excellent care when you had cancer, and that doesn't surprise me. But our healthcare system is kind of in a crisis. There is a shortage of doctors. You haven't been able to get the names of GPs taking new patients in my city. My GP is in a neighboring municipality, which still does give names.

A lot of physician care is going to the walk-ins, presumably because those are cheaper to run. I don't know how walk-ins handle follow-up care when tests and such need to be done.

I allowed myself to be manipulated out of continuing to attend a community clinic, by a doctor. I really regret that because I liked the clinic, and there was a lot of female doctors there.

I've not been able to find a female GP since my last once left her practice. She was replaced by a male. And even though a new female GP has since joined the clinic, they won't let me switch from the male GP to her. I guess female doctors are in short supply.

I have an appointment with a male OB-GYN next week, and really would have preferred a female, but it was a six month wait.
One reason we have such a shortage of doctors is because they get offers of tremendous bucks if they move to the US as everything is inflated there. I have had both good and bad experiences with walk ins in MTL..., the same with hospital emergency doctors and I daresay the same with the doctors. I now have my own GP-yay who is a young woman. They are now teaching doctors in the schools to concentrate on preventative medicine a lot with the elderly. With good diet and exercise and socializing instead of putting us back together with bandaids and losing quality of life.
 

MacMadame

Cat Lady-in-Training
Messages
29,638
Assuming you have replied to one post, just copy the other post(s) you want to quote, then paste it into your reply in the reply box.
Too much work. There is a quote link on every post. Click it for any post you want to reply to and then click the "Insert Quotes" button in the reply box. No need to copy and paste anything.

MY opinion on that was she really caught him by surprise. He liked and respected her and never thought that kind of attack would come from her. His face looked shocked. Her performance was so practiced and perfected it was not spur of the moment emotion. He will not be caught by her like that again.He has her measure.
:rofl: That is so funny. People have been talking for weeks about Biden's record on this specific issue (and others) and how he will respond to them! There was absolutely no reason for him to be surprised this came up and to not have an answer prepared.

And he will continue to be a horrible campaigner.

But our healthcare system is kind of in a crisis. There is a shortage of doctors.
We have the same issue. Our healthcare is in crisis too. Only on top of everything else, not everyone can get healthcare at all and when they do get it, it's freaking expensive.
 

oleada

Well-Known Member
Messages
41,066
MY opinion on that was she really caught him by surprise. He liked and respected her and never thought that kind of attack would come from her. His face looked shocked. Her performance was so practiced and perfected it was not spur of the moment emotion. He will not be caught by her like that again.He has her measure.
Yes, she was practiced and rehearsed. It’s a nationally televised debate for the presidential nomination. I would expect that candidates have done their homework. It sure would have helped Joe Biden.

Biden has made all sorts of questionable comments on race already. Did he think he would not be challenged on them in a contested primary? It’s a debate, not a coronation.
 

ribbon

Well-Known Member
Messages
191
"Unprepared" is a good way to describe Biden's whole campaign. He always seems unprepared for how he comes across, and that's not a good look in a candidate.

As for Harris I think she checks a lot of boxes but right now she's lacking one critical thing: warmth. I noticed that in the debate.
But I don’t think it matters if she’s warm and fuzzy as long as she continues to be able to give quick stories like the child with the fever and the parents debating whether or not to go in the hospital. Another example is when she described the rape victim afraid to report because she’d risk tipping off immigration authorities so the rapist is still free. Harris seems smart enough to realize people listening don’t really need the exact story (which so often happens in politics, where they do close ups of people at the state of the union), but need someone who understands the significance and bigger picture of an individual’s situation.
 

barbarafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,316
But I don’t think it matters if she’s warm and fuzzy as long as she continues to be able to give quick stories like the child with the fever and the parents debating whether or not to go in the hospital. Another example is when she described the rape victim afraid to report because she’d risk tipping off immigration authorities so the rapist is still free. Harris seems smart enough to realize people listening don’t really need the exact story (which so often happens in politics, where they do close ups of people at the state of the union), but need someone who understands the significance and bigger picture of an individual’s situation.
The new President has to bring honour back to the WH. Period.
Making great arguments is good. Being able to think quick on your feet another good thing. Being supremely intelligent is really really a necessary thing this time around. Thinking that winning at all costs is the all important thing and thinking it is fine to stab a great man in the back to get what you want (not for the good of the people)lacks integrity and the essentials of a great leader. Do you really think that if she managed to get elected it will be the dream ending...they kissed and live happily ever after. A president has to deal with allies, has to work as a team(not a team of conspirators) to further the world problems, and to deal with enemies and in between and has to know what fair means and certainly needs to know right from wrong. The huge mess of USA leadership needs to stripped and reformed. Do you really think this is a one body job....or even two. Every person on the stage on both nights - taking away 5 to 10 and maybe adding another one or two is so necessary to flip the country and set it on a course for survival. The new president needs to use and work with all of them for the country's and maybe even the worlds survival. Just how far do you think Harris is capable of sinking to get what she wants or win a case. Would I like her to be proscecuter in a case between Trump and the country - yes...Do I think she has the necessary moral fibre to be a great president.-No. That ship has sailed.
 

clairecloutier

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,565
Pete Buttigieg cannot win a national election. He cannot win the black vote, nor should he. When you say after a police shooting in your own city of a black man by a white man who TURNED OFF HIS BODY CAM the "all lives matter" I'm-not-racist-but-kinda spiel, I'm not voting for you. When you choose to attend a police fund raiser rather than a memorial for the victim, I'm not voting for you. Racial tensions are high in this country. Racial tensions got worse under his leadership of South Bend. Black police officers left the South Bend police force in droves. He acknowledged in the debates he didn't handle it well--props to him for almost taking some responsibility--but if he can't handle a city how in the hell is he going to handle an entire country? He refused to investigate the lynching of a sixteen year old boy.

He demolished homes in the name of gentrification and saw a staggering rise in homelessness. He dismissed workers striking for fair wages. He accepted money from Blackstone, opposes universal child care, and is the only one running who does not provide health care for HIS OWN EMPLOYEES. His views on the Middle East are kind of horrifying.

Pete Buttigieg is the political version of Alexander Abt. He has fans because of the way he looks and sounds, but if you look at his actual program, it's kinda empty.

This post sent me straight to Google, as it included a lot of claims that I hadn't heard yet. I am posting below some articles I found regarding these claims & some relevant quotes from the articles. There's something behind most of these claims, yet the way they were stated in this post casts each issue in the worst light, which I find problematic.

We're going to have our favorites during this campaign, and we're going to attack our non-favorites, and the candidates are going to attack each other, too, in their efforts to delineate their differences from each other. But, at the same time, we've got to be a little wary about almost demonizing non-favored candidates, IMO. Otherwise, we run the risk of having essentially no one we can get behind and get enthusiastic about voting for.

I don't dispute that Buttigieg has flaws as a candidate, and things in his record that deserve a close look, most particularly race relations in South Bend, especially in terms of the police force. And yes, he absolutely should NOT be the nominee if he can't gain support from African-Americans. At this moment, I don't know how likely it seems that he can get support from African-Americans. We will see.

But, just this morning, Buttigieg announced that he raised $24 million this past quarter. Anecdotally, we had dinner with some Democratic friends this weekend ... and Buttigieg is their clear choice from the Democratic field. He is a pretty serious candidate, right now anyhow. So IMO we should try to understand the facts around his record, but clearly. I say this not to whitewash his record, but to say let's look at it carefully.


Black police officers left the South Bend police force in droves.
Article: https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/27/politics/pete-buttigieg-south-bend-police-diversity/index.html
Quote: "When Buttigieg took office in January 2012, the department had 29 black officers on the force. That number was 15 in 2019, according to the numbers."
Article: https://www.southbendtribune.com/news/publicsafety/south-bend-police-see-successful-year-of-recruiting-but-still/article_cc8a29aa-9a31-5bf7-887e-5cfc9a1a2465.html
Note: Total police force in South Bend is a little under 240 officers.

He refused to investigate the lynching of a sixteen year old boy.
Note: The death was ruled as a suicide at the time it occurred. It most certainly bears further investigation, but to call it a lynching when that fact is not established is inflammatory. To call it a "hanging," as the article below does, is more accurate, as we don't really know what happened.
Article: https://tyt.com/stories/4vZLCHuQrYE4uKagy0oyMA/5iMSC8eiu3XG1HVYHEvv5

He demolished homes in the name of gentrification and saw a staggering rise in homelessness.
Article: https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/what-pete-buttigieg-has-and-hasnt-done-about-homelessness-in-south-bend
Quote: "As is the case in most cities, pinpointing the number of homeless people in South Bend is difficult."
Note: The current homeless numbers given in the article range from 130 to about 500. The relationship of the probable, but not established, rise in homelessness to gentrification is discussed further in the article.

He ... opposes universal child care
Article: https://www.vox.com/2019/5/22/18302875/2020-election-democrats-child-care-kids-president
Quote: "Buttigieg has said at campaign events that he supports some form of child care assistance, possibly in the form of a tax credit, though he has not yet gone into specifics. 'I do support the concept of a child care allowance, or a child allowance, be it in the form of a tax credit or however we want to set it up,' Buttigieg said at an April town hall."

He ... is the only one running who does not provide health care for HIS OWN EMPLOYEES.
Article: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/buttigieg-only-top-2020-candidate-not-offering-staffers-health-care-n1003481
Quote: "Buttigieg is providing a monthly stipend to workers to buy insurance on their own through the Obamacare exchanges, his campaign said, with plans to offer health care in the future. Buttigieg’s campaign currently has 49 workers, but has been staffing up rapidly, and plans to hit the 50 mark imminently. 'Crossing this threshold will put us in a position to get a good multi-state group plan, which we are currently negotiating,' said Buttigieg press secretary Chris Meagher. In the meantime, the campaign is giving salaried staffers a $400 monthly stipend to buy health care themselves. That’s just enough for a single adult with no children to cover a 'silver plan' through the Obamacare exchanges, according to national cost data analyzed by the Kaiser Family Foundation."
 
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Zemgirl

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11,573
More re Buttigieg: I'm not sure what is so horrifying about his views about the Middle East, at least not as explained (albeit briefly) here and here; to the best of my knowledge, he made an "all lives matter" comment years ago, and it was not intended to excuse police violence; and this article, which is critical of Buttigieg's housing teardown initiative, indicates that he has also learned from it.

I realize that people see a gay presidential candidate and expect him to be more progressive than Buttigieg is, but he is allowed to be a moderate. It's up to voters to decide if they want a progressive candidate or a more moderate one. And he should be evaluated on his record, not on a hyperbolic version thereof.

From where I'm sitting, just about every Democrat is preferable to the person currently in the White House, and I hope they won't wreck each others' chances during the campaign.
 
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Zemgirl

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Messages
11,573
When you choose to attend a police fund raiser rather than a memorial for the victim
As far as I can tell this is also inaccurate. Buttigieg did not attend the memorial for Eric Logan, but the only police event he attended was the swearing-in ceremony for new officers. This article includes some of what he had to say at that event. Buttigieg has been criticized by the Fraternal Order of Police for his handling of the shooting and its aftermath.

Fact-checking is hard, I have a lot of respect for those who do it on a regular basis.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
29,856
I have a feeling if Biden fizzles out, Buttigieg will be the replacement for Biden’s supporters.
 

Zemgirl

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,573
I have a feeling if Biden fizzles out, Buttigieg will be the replacement for Biden’s supporters.
I wouldn't be at all surprised.

For all his success in attracting support and donations, I doubt Buttigieg will be on the presidential ticket. My guess is that his realistic goal is to be a cabinet secretary.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
29,856
I wouldn’t be surprised if he ends up the candidate. He’s getting the golden boy image Obama got in 2007-08. But at the same time, I also wouldn’t be surprised if he wasn’t either. I guess that is what happens in a crowded field and you just start playing with perceived probabilities in your head.
 

barbarafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,316
I wouldn't be at all surprised.

For all his success in attracting support and donations, I doubt Buttigieg will be on the presidential ticket. My guess is that his realistic goal is to be a cabinet secretary.
The only real problem of his trying to be president is homophobic republicans who think a gay president is almost as bad as a woman president. He is smart, dedicated, has empathy ..knows what it is like to go against prejudice, knows what war is like and has a lot of class. Like I say ...I would like Biden at the top for 4 yrs but he certainly needs the others to slog through all the refuse left over from Trump and he could help them for a run at next presidency. I think this is going to have to be a 2 step process to succeed.
 

Vagabond

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,217
The others, including Castro, have a long way to go.
Irrespective of how I would rank him against the other candidates for the Democratic nomination, I love the idea that the United States might have a President Castro in a little over eighteen months from now.

:love: :giggle:
 

Zemgirl

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,573
Racial tensions got worse under his leadership of South Bend. Black police officers left the South Bend police force in droves.

...

He demolished homes in the name of gentrification and saw a staggering rise in homelessness. He dismissed workers striking for fair wages. He accepted money from Blackstone.
Reading up on Buttigieg's issues, part 3:

As clairecloutier noted, the number of black police officers in South Bend has indeed dropped sharply during Buttigieg's time as mayor. I was unable to find data on whether this problem is unique to South Bend or representative of a broader difficulty in recruiting black police officers. A Washington Post story only indicates that applications to police departments have dropped in general.

Buttigieg held a fundraiser at the home of Hamilton James, a democratic donor who is the executive VP of Blackstone.

I was not able to find anything about Buttigieg dismissing striking workers or any figures about homeless rates in South Bend over time.

I'm now ready to move on to the next candidate :)
 

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