School books with opposing views

[Susan1]

That list is missing some categories too.

That list came from Wiki. Here are the next categories. (I only searched because I was looking for Catholics, because I remember it being specifically mentioned when we were learning about the Holocaust in Catholic school.)

Section -
6.2Roman Catholics
6.2.1Poland
6.3Protestants
6.4Baháʼí Faith
6.5Freemasons
6.6Esperantists

"Taking into account all of the victims of persecution, the Nazis systematically murdered an estimated six million Jews and an additional 11 million people during the war. Donald Niewyk suggests that the broadest definition, including Soviet civilian deaths, would produce a death toll of 17 million."
(so more non-Jews than Jews.)

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

The National Holocaust Museum says that this topic can be taught as early as Grade 6.

That reminds me that I need to go to Houston's Holocaust Museum. I went to the new grand opening a few years ago, but felt rushed. (A friend's uncle left $50M to the museum and it is AMAZING now). Thursdays are free, so if my back is willing I'll go on Thursday.

 

[ballettmaus]

Steven Spielburg said that he wanted 'Shindler's List' to be shown in all classrooms throughout the nation.

I think this is a wiser idea than just discussing it. The film does present the opposing view and show how repugnant/inhumane it is.

How does the film present an opposing view to the Holocaust? It shows that some people saw the error of their ways (far too late) but an opposing view?

 

[Japanfan]

How does the film present an opposing view to the Holocaust? It shows that some people saw the error of their ways (far too late) but an opposing view?

IIRC, having seen the film many years ago, it presented the viewpoint of the Nazis, particularly through Hitler's right-hand guy. I don't remember his name, but it began with a G I think, and he was played by Ralf (? calls himself Rafe) Fiennes.

I clearly remember his saying "These Jews, they are a disease".

TBH I don't know how this should be taught in schools, I leave that question to educators who teach the Holocaust. But sad is it may be, the perpetrators of genocide have usually felt justified in their actions - usually because they felt superior to those whom they killed (white supremacy being one example).

However, I think it is important to consider how oppression and genocide occur, and are justified.

Especially since they continue to this day.

For example, many years ago, I did market research door-to-door for awhile. At some point I found myself in a complex, located and isolated in a small hill above the city. All the residents there were immigrants or refugees. The place was like a prison.

Such situations happen today, probably in most major cities.

 

[Sparks]

When I was in high school, I took a film class. I had to get a permission slip signed by my mother in order to watch Judgement at Nuremberg.

 

[MacMadame]

That list came from Wiki. Here are the next categories. (I only searched because I was looking for Catholics, because I remember it being specifically mentioned when we were learning about the Holocaust in Catholic school.)

Section -
6.2Roman Catholics
6.2.1Poland
6.3Protestants
6.4Baháʼí Faith
6.5Freemasons
6.6Esperantists

"Taking into account all of the victims of persecution, the Nazis systematically murdered an estimated six million Jews and an additional 11 million people during the war. Donald Niewyk suggests that the broadest definition, including Soviet civilian deaths, would produce a death toll of 17 million."
(so more non-Jews than Jews.)

Yeah, I knew about most of those having been both Catholic and a Baha'i in the past.

 

[Susan1]

Yeah, I knew about most of those having been both Catholic and a Baha'i in the past.

Just replying because you said -

That list is missing some categories too.

It was on the same page as the first list.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

When I was in high school, I took a film class. I had to get a permission slip signed by my mother in order to watch Judgement at Nuremberg.

Also, the main reason I brought up the Houston Holocaust Museum is because it's free on Thursdays and to kill time I'd go to the museum district since I live five minutes from it. And I would almost always see groups of gradeschoolers on a class trip there. I guess they looked 6th/7th grade, and I thought it was a WONDERFUL way to expose children/students to the Holocaust. If you don't leave there a more compassionate, empathic, and understanding person then you are a lost soul. IMO.

 

[ballettmaus]

IIRC, having seen the film many years ago, it presented the viewpoint of the Nazis, particularly through Hitler's right-hand guy. I don't remember his name, but it began with a G I think, and he was played by Ralf (? calls himself Rafe) Fiennes.

I clearly remember his saying "These Jews, they are a disease".

But that's not what the movie is about or the purpose of the movie and not what you're supposed to take away from the movie.

It's also not a legitimate point of view for me and I don't think this point of view needs to be discussed. To clarify - if you say discuss, I understand that to mean there should be a discussion in class with arguments for or against that point of view and I don't think it should happen. I learned of the reasonings without any discussion and I don't think it's needed.

As far as education is concerned, I don't have any specific memory of how I learned of it. But the wall was still standing when I was born and I lived in Berlin, so since the wall was a consequence of WWII, I imagine I had questions and my parents told me. We also learned about it in school (at least twice, in my case), we watched Schindler's List and, as I mentioned before, we get documentaries year-round and special reports (all day long on the German NPR equivalent) on anniversaries (like Holocaust Remembrance Day). Documentaries and reports mention the reasons but they (often) do so in a way that make you understand right away that it was nothing but an excuse. (Or maybe I just perceive it that way because it's what I grew up with).

 

[Vagabond]

The argument is silly, but those are not the numbers they use. For one thing, they argue that there were fewer than a million Jews in Germany when the Nazis came to power. This is true; there were around 600K Jews in Germany at that time.

The fact that the Nazis didn't discriminate geographically and killed Jews (and others) wherever they found them? Allied propoganda, designed to make the Nazi look bad.

I think that there are at least two issues at play here, namely (1) Antisemitism and (2) sympathies for Nazism and other white supremacist causes. Minimizing the number of Jewish victims and ignoring the non-Jewish victims serves both purposes.

Of course, there really hasn't been a proper discussion in the West about the death toll among non-Jewish Soviet citizens. When I was growing up, I never heard about millions of Soviet prisoners of war who died in camps until I was in my mid-twenties, and though I did hear about how millions of non-Jewish Soviet citizens died, I did not understand at the time that these were not simply casualties of war but rather victims of extermination programs.

The movie Come and See was a revelation for me, but very few people in this country have heard of it.

 

[Sparks]

But that's not what the movie is about or the purpose of the movie and not what you're supposed to take away from the movie.

It's also not a legitimate point of view for me and I don't think this point of view needs to be discussed. To clarify - if you say discuss, I understand that to mean there should be a discussion in class with arguments for or against that point of view and I don't think it should happen. I learned of the reasonings without any discussion and I don't think it's needed.

That is why I think SL is not as an effective teaching tool, than Judgement at Nuremberg is. As a teenager I knew a lot about WWI from the Allies side, but watching JaN opened my eyes to the horrific atrocities of the Nazi regime.
In those days, we didn't have Holocaust museums and the like.

 

[ballettmaus]

That is why I think SL is not an effective teaching tool, than Judgement at Nuremberg is. As a teenager I knew a lot about WWI from the Allies side, but watching JaN opened my eyes to the horrific atrocities of the Nazi regime.
In those days, we didn't have Holocaust museums and the like.

I don't consider Schindler's List a teaching tool. I think it's a movie that tells the story of a man who was on the wrong side of history but, at the very least, used his money and influence to save people. The only thing that it may teach us is that there were far too many of him who (probably) knew what was happening was wrong but who didn't speak up and at the same time, there were far too few of him who used their money and influence to save people's lives.
But I think you learn a lot more from documentaries and visits to concentration camps and just plain historical facts.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I don't consider Schindler's List a teaching tool. I think it's a movie that tells the story of a man who was on the wrong side of history but, at the very least, used his money and influence to save people. The only thing that it may teach us is that there were far too many of him who (probably) knew what was happening was wrong but who didn't speak up and at the same time, there were far too few of him who used their money and influence to save people's lives.
But I think you learn a lot more from documentaries and visits to concentration camps and just plain historical facts.

Oh I think Schindler's list is a marvelous teaching tool for the very reasons you do not. Schindler could have done more by speaking out....and get arrested.

Schindler's List" delivers a universal message: The actions of one person can make a difference in the lives of others. Even in the face of the worst of humanity, we all have within us the power to take action — and to be stronger than hate. Shindler saved 1,000 people. Not for money. Not for glory. But because it was the right thing to do, and he had the resources to do it.

The movie is accessible to people. It is very difficult to take in piles of bone thin bodies. And it is easier to rationalize what happened. I remember watching Schindler's List in the movie theater. At the end of the movie, there was only quiet. People neither got up nor walked out for several minutes.

 

[Prancer]

IIRC, having seen the film many years ago, it presented the viewpoint of the Nazis, particularly through Hitler's right-hand guy. I don't remember his name, but it began with a G I think, and he was played by Ralf (? calls himself Rafe) Fiennes.

Ralph Fiennes plays the concentration camp commandant.

It's also not a legitimate point of view for me and I don't think this point of view needs to be discussed. To clarify - if you say discuss, I understand that to mean there should be a discussion in class with arguments for or against that point of view and I don't think it should happen.

Do you think there are any reasonable people who think it should happen?

But if the law is that teachers have to present alternative views, what are they to do? Again, presenting alternative views of the Holocaust is, we are told, not the intent of the law--but I think people are ignoring the fact that the intent of the law does essentially the same thing, just not about the Holocaust.

I do think that teachers need to discuss Nazi beliefs and rationale. Otherwise, you would be telling kids that these people called Nazis came into power and started killing people because....well, because they did and let's just move on. I would have no trouble at all letting kids discuss these ideas; how else are they supposed to come to terms with them?

But I think you learn a lot more from documentaries and visits to concentration camps and just plain historical facts.

I have to disagree there. People learn things when they are engaged; human stories engage people. Facts by themselves generally do not. If you want to convince people of something, pathos (supported by ethos next and then logos) is the most effective appeal for the vast majority of people. That's why politicians tell stories instead of showing lots of charts and graphs.

The first thing you do when you enter the US Holocaust Museum is pick up a little booklet with a photo and biography of a victim. There are photos and individual stories everywhere. There are piles of everyday objects victims owned. There are documentaries and displays with statistics and facts and the like, too, but it's the people who make the facts meaningful. It's why schools across the country have kids read The Diary of Anne Frank and Night. Years later, hardly anyone remembers statistics, but they remember those stories.

It's not that facts and documentaries aren't valuable or shouldn't be part of the process; it's that if you want to move people instead of just educating them, human stories are your most powerful arguments.

 

[Allskate]

But I think you learn a lot more from documentaries and visits to concentration camps and just plain historical facts.

I don't think it's a binary decision. You can do both and there may be some benefit from doing both together. I first started talking to my niece about the holocaust when it vaguely came up in a book I was reading to her. When she was a little older, she wanted to read a novel that involved kids being exterminated at a concentration camp. I think she realized that it was going to be very upsetting and asked me if I would read it too so that we could discuss it as she read through it. It was an opportunity to teach her specific historical facts. I think one of the benefits of those discussions is that she now is concerned about persecution more broadly and in current times. So, as a fifth grader, she will read articles about Syrian refugees or Afghan refugees and wants to read Malala's book.

 

[Susan1]

I do think that teachers need to discuss Nazi beliefs and rationale. Otherwise, you would be telling kids that these people called Nazis came into power and started killing people because....well, because they did and let's just move on. I would have no trouble at all letting kids discuss these ideas; how else are they supposed to come to terms with them?

When I read that paragraph, the first thing that popped into my head was how do you teach children today about neo-Nazis and white supremacists and the people at Charlotte chanting about Jews. The people who caused the Holocaust are history. Their ideas are still here.

 

[Baby Yoda On Skates]

It's not that facts and documentaries aren't valuable or shouldn't be part of the process; it's that if you want to move people instead of just educating them, human stories are your most powerful arguments.

The Auschwitz Memorial English Twitter account has 1.1 million followers. Every day they post multiple victims with their pics, ages, occupations if available, nationality, and if they survived or not. Most didn't. It's powerful and heartbreaking and enraging. They educate by putting a human face on to the numbers.

 

[caseyedwards]

When I was in high school, I took a film class. I had to get a permission slip signed by my mother in order to watch Judgement at Nuremberg.

I need a permission slip to watch American history x! The movie about a neo nazi had rape, sex, nudity, violence and extreme racist language.

 

[sk8pics]

My group went to Yad Vashem when I was in Israel in 2015. What a sobering experience, especially listening to our tour guide talk about how his mother was saved as an infant. I still remember him sitting down next to me and asking me if I was all right.

 

[MacMadame]

When I was in High School and visiting various Jewish friends, many had Grandparents who were in concentration camps and I talked to them and they showed me their tattoos. I will never forget this. I think these stories are important.

 

[attyfan]

When I was in High School and visiting various Jewish friends, many had Grandparents who were in concentration camps and I talked to them and they showed me their tattoos. I will never forget this. I think these stories are important.

Personal stories are a good way of teaching. I know my mom used to go to various schools and speak about her experiences during the in Germany before Krystalnacht (mom and her family got out in '39). They had her speak to the younger kids, though ... it gave them an introduction that was personalized, which helped when they became older and learned more about the full horror.

 

[MacMadame]

Also, it's harder to be a denier if you've looked someone in the eye and heard their story and know they are a real person.

 

[caseyedwards]

Also, it's harder to be a denier if you've looked someone in the eye and heard their story and know they are a real person.

One form of denial is denial of scale. So there are many deniers who could meet one or even dozens and believe them but not the scale

 

[Aussie Willy]

You have the option of walking away. Not everyone does.

Well aren't I lucky that I do that have option. Yes not everyone does.

 

[Japanfan]

It's also not a legitimate point of view for me and I don't think this point of view needs to be discussed. To clarify - if you say discuss, I understand that to mean there should be a discussion in class with arguments for or against that point of view and I don't think it should happen. I learned of the reasonings without any discussion and I don't think it's needed.

No, I don't mean discuss in that way - more reasonings, as you say.

 

[Icetalavista]

One of my jr high school social studies teachers showed us the film Night and Fog. People were in tears but he was a great teacher and presented it appropriately

 

[caseyedwards]

The only movie I saw with slavery was Glory and it wasn’t really slavery it was some former slaves. You had the whipping scene and that was a very popular movie to show in schools. Just very hard to believe Beloved would have been shown even with permission slip