Save Women's Sport - the pearl clutching begins

bladesofgorey

Well-Known Member
Messages
777
Oh, please. It isn't all or nothing in either case. Do you support gender reassignment surgery for six-year-olds? If not, does that make you an enemy of women's bodily autonomy?
Give me a ****ing break with this made up shit. Y'all either support bodily autonomy or you don't.
 

Asli

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,875
The people behind the transgender moral panic are the same people who got Roe v Wade overturned. They are not interested in women's bodily autonomy.
Indeed, some religious conservatives are anti-LGBT and are amongst those who got Roe Vs Wade overturned.

However, the feminists in this thread -like me- are the exact opposite. So please, don't insult us on such a horrible day for feminism.
 
Last edited:

Asli

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,875
Oh, please. It isn't all or nothing in either case. Do you support gender reassignment surgery for six-year-olds? If not, does that make you an enemy of women's bodily autonomy?
Six-year-olds can't have gender reassignment surgery. The youngest for double mastectomy is 16 in the UK, AFAIK.

Also, I think we can safely say that this kind of surgery will never be approved for pre-pubescent children.
 
Last edited:

Asli

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,875
This is what the “gender critical feminists” are saying in the open. They have no problem with the anti-abortionists so long as they are against a trans rights.

She says she is pro-choice but talks to pro-life people. What is wrong with that? You and I don't agree on gender issues but we are still talking. If we stop talking, we will end up like in Erdogan's Turkey: If you disagree with someone on one issue, the other is necessarily a terrorist.
 

MsZem

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,604
However, the feminists in this thread -like me- are the exact opposite. So please, don't insult us on such a horrible day for feminism.
And one involving something that does not directly affect transwomen. Why even bring it up in this thread?

She says she is pro-choice but talks to pro-life people. What is wrong with that? You and I don't agree on gender issues but we are still talking. If we stop talking, we will end up like in Erdogan's Turkey: If you disagree with someone on one issue, the other is necessarily a terrorist.
I don't know who that person is, but agree with your point. Reproductive rights are not really a political issue in Israel, but I definitely had pro-life friends back when I lived in the US. I have friends whom I disagree with about major Israeli political issues. It is possible to disagree with one another with respect.
 

PRlady

Well-Known Member
Messages
40,559
Kathleen Stock is a professor of philosophy in the UK who no longer has a job at her university after writing extensively on the gender-critical POV.
 

Dai's Blues for Klook

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,063
Kathleen Stock is a professor of philosophy in the UK who no longer has a job at her university after writing extensively on the gender-critical POV.
It says she resigned and she got loads of support after it. Gosh, I thought she was forced to resign, that would be horrifying for an academic.
 

allezfred

Lipinski Stole My Catchphrase
Staff member
Messages
63,164
She says she is pro-choice but talks to pro-life people. What is wrong with that? You and I don't agree on gender issues but we are still talking.
She isn’t just talking with them. She is working with them. I would absolutely draw the line at working with someone who is anti-abortion no matter we agreed on.
 

Dai's Blues for Klook

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,063
I agree with her that she shouldn't be ostracized over her academic views, and I agree with her that her book isn't making anyone unsafe.

I hadn't known of her academic ostracization, I saw this on wikipedia

A group of over 200 academic philosophers from the UK signed an open letter in support of Stock's academic freedom.

And there were two articles linked with that statement.

Since you said she "no longer has a job at her university" I interpreted that comment as her being fired over her academic views. I cannot stand by such a thing, as there are a lot of academic views that I don't agree with. I do not condone academics being fired over them (unless genuinely harmful like "gay people deserve death"). I find such practices anti-intellectual.

While I'm happy she wasn't fired over her views, it is saddening to see the university not doing anything to prevent harassment on the campus. I am not sitting at my home cyber-harassing professors of religious studies at my university, or professors who share marxist economic and political views, and certainly not at my campus. She cannot avoid online harassment from people who don't work or study at her university, and probably also not in her personal life over her views, but I do not like her being harassed over her views on the campus or from the professors and students doing it online.
 
Last edited:

MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
49,987
Since you said she "no longer has a job at her university" I interpreted that comment as her being fired over her academic views. I cannot stand by such a thing, as there are a lot of academic views that I don't agree with. I do not condone academics being fired over them (unless genuinely harmful like "gay people deserve death"). I find such practices anti-intellectual.
Her views are genuinely harmful. And if people who work with her don't want to associate with her, that's the consequence of her own choices.
 

PRlady

Well-Known Member
Messages
40,559
Having read her measured, analytical book, I’m still waiting for a measured, analytical rebuttal although I don’t agree with a good chunk of her conclusions. Our side is supposed to be against hate mobs, I used to think.
 

overedge

Mayor of Carrot City
Messages
33,358
Academic disciplines don't have faculty with identical views. I could easily find 200 academics in business schools who would sign a letter saying that unionization is a fundamental right of workers and also promotes healthier, sustainable, economically secure communities. I could also easily find 200 academics in business schools who would sign a letter saying that unions unjustly interfere with employers' and owners' rights to run their businesses as they see fit.

200 academics signing a letter in support of someone is not a sign that what they are saying is right.
 

Jot the Dot Dot

Headstrong Buzzard
Messages
4,231
Her views are genuinely harmful. And if people who work with her don't want to associate with her, that's the consequence of her own choices.
What was it that she said? Not, "People found it harmful", or "It was transphobic", but what were the exact words?
 

Asli

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,875
Academic disciplines don't have faculty with identical views. I could easily find 200 academics in business schools who would sign a letter saying that unionization is a fundamental right of workers and also promotes healthier, sustainable, economically secure communities. I could also easily find 200 academics in business schools who would sign a letter saying that unions unjustly interfere with employers' and owners' rights to run their businesses as they see fit.

200 academics signing a letter in support of someone is not a sign that what they are saying is right.
Actually the letter of solidarity to Sussex University was not in support of Kathleen Stock's opinions but in solidarity with the university's "defence of academic freedom in light of the recent harassment campaign".

"While not all of us agree with Professor Stock’s views, we are convinced of the importance of making space within Universities and within public life for respectful debate and discussion, particularly in relation to pressing issues of public policy," it says.

This following part also explains her most controversial opinion, in reply to you, @Jot the Dot Dot

Professor Stock is engaged with the question of whether sex should be replaced with self-identified gender in all legal, political, and social contexts, as is currently being advocated for in the UK. Maybe she is mistaken that there remain important contexts where it is sex rather than gender identity that matters. Moreover, we recognise that these matters are deeply, personally important for many people, whose views and concerns also deserve sincere respect. However, unless she and others involved in this debate are permitted to raise their concerns on this matter, engaging in open and scholarly debate without fear of harassment, so that opponents may explain why she is mistaken (if she is), the danger remains that the move to replace sex with self-identified gender will be made without adequate reflection and scrutiny.

It pains me to see how academic freedoms that people in other countries go to prison for, are eroded as if they were nothing. :(
 
Last edited:

Dai's Blues for Klook

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,063
Her views are genuinely harmful. And if people who work with her don't want to associate with her, that's the consequence of her own choices.
Her views are not genuinely harmful, not like the one you highlighted, and not like the two other examples I gave either. You want to equate transphobic views to a call for death or the number of people who've died due to religion or in communist regimes, then do it, but don't expect me to nod along with you.

People are free to not associate with her all they like, but if some are going to ostracize others based off an academic point of view on the campus, then maybe my third world country is better than your "first world countries" with your highly funded colleges. Would certainly explain why we tend to make more sense than you ever will at academic conferences.

200 academics signing a letter in support of someone is not a sign that what they are saying is right.
Yes, it just means they support her right to her own views.
 
Last edited:

overedge

Mayor of Carrot City
Messages
33,358
Academic freedom doesn't mean that someone has the absolute right to say or do whatever they want without criticism or consequences. It means that they can research or talk about issues that they choose (ie not to be told what or what not to work on).
 

barbk

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,536
Give me a ****ing break with this made up shit. Y'all either support bodily autonomy or you don't.
This all-or-nothing approach doesn't work for me. That's my perception of what you want. Either I support without restriction the right of self-declared females who are biological males who went through male puberty to compete athletically against biological females, or I'm against transgender people.

I support marriage between two people independent of their genders. That doesn't mean I support child marriage, which is still allowable in too many states in the US. I don't support child marriage because it is too often unfair to the child. Does that make me anti-marriage?

I support gun ownership, but not unrestricted gun ownership. I believe gun owners should be held responsible for safely securing their guns and young adults shouldn't be allowed to purchase guns. Does that make me anti-gun?

I support voting rights (and am strongly against the many restrictions that have been imposed in the last few years), but I oppose allowing voting by non-citizen immigrants. (This is an actual issue that has arisen in my community.) Does this make me anti-immigrant?

I'm trying to think of a context other than competitive sports where I have any concern about competition/participation by transgender people. I can't think of one.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
49,987
I support marriage between two people independent of their genders. That doesn't mean I support child marriage, which is still allowable in too many states in the US. I don't support child marriage because it is too often unfair to the child.
So you are comparing trans women on estrogen and low testosterone playing sports to child marriage. Nice.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information