Russian Figure Skater tests positive for drugs - delays ceremony for team medals

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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52,301
So, what we have is DL trying to connect various dots and point out where there have been questionable situations or, in the case of Grinkov, a tragedy. I know the medical reports at the time pointed to "congenital heart disease" but... Is it wrong to ask the question "Is this necessarily true?" If the ME is given the information that his father died from heart disease and then discovers similar characteristics in Grinkov's autopsy, is the ME pre-disposed then to just say "oh, congenital heart disease" - case closed and not look for any other potential causes of death?
No, that is not what happened. He was tested for a specific gene that can cause what happened to him and it was found. Plus all this happened in the US so there was no Russian cover-up.

There maybe be other cases that deserve a second look but this isn't one of them. It's DL stirring up shit.
I don't think DL is out of line to at least throw that theory out there.
I do. It requires its own gaslighting to be remotely credible.
 

Primorskaya

Well-Known Member
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2,613
Yeah I think Grinkov's cause of death is pretty well established. I went looking for facts after the Valieva scandal precisely because the whole heart medication thing gave me a doubt, but in his case I think there isn't one.
But the fact that they give heart meds to a 15 y.o (who probably was younger than that when they started giving it to her) with no thought for possible consequences to her future health is by far the most pukeworthy fact about this whole debacle.
 

DreamSkates

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The "narrowed artery" was caused by a congenital heart condition. Doctors discovered it while doing the autopsy and also did some further research. IIRC, when they announced their findings, they termed it the "Grinkov risk factor."

ETA: https://apnews.com/article/3aa03941f98fc9a425fe80ba6583ff

Not directing this at you because I know you’re just recapping what was discussed on TSL, but ugh, that’s a really cheap line of speculation even by TSL’s standards. Maybe Russian/Soviet skaters (and/or skaters from other countries) were doping in that era, who knows. But the medical factors involved in Grinkov’s death were discussed extensively in the media at the time, and I don’t recall that anything at the time indicated any kind of substance use would have played a role. Trying to get a little more mileage out of a highly-publicized tragedy with absolutely no evidence, when Grinkov still has family and friends in the sport who miss him, is pretty gross IMO.

Not directing this at you because I know you’re just recapping what was discussed on TSL, but ugh, that’s a really cheap line of speculation even by TSL’s standards. Maybe Russian/Soviet skaters (and/or skaters from other countries) were doping in that era, who knows. But the medical factors involved in Grinkov’s death were discussed extensively in the media at the time, and I don’t recall that anything at the time indicated any kind of substance use would have played a role. Trying to get a little more mileage out of a highly-publicized tragedy with absolutely no evidence, when Grinkov still has family and friends in the sport who miss him, is pretty gross IMO.
Yes it was absolutely a tragedy but I think a fair question to ask if drugs were involved, given the history of doping in Russian athletics. Not that athletes in other countries don't but could drugs have been a factor. And whatever is "extensively in the media" may or may not be 100% truth.
 

Vagabond

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23,176
Everyone has skipped over the part about whether the ostensible struggles of Russian skaters this season are due to a lack of doping. Do people accept Lease's speculation on this, or do they just not care?
 
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Karen-W

Neither sexy nor sultry, but loving life!
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Everyone has skipped over the part about whether the ostensible struggles of Russian skaters this season are due to a lack of doping. Do people accept Leese's speculation on this, or do they just not care?
Well, there hasn't been a lot of discussion about the Russian fauxGP except in the general Russian news thread (not even a KnC discussion thread about it at all). I think a lot of us are deliberately ignoring/avoiding watching any of that, so it's hard to form much of an opinion.
 

caseyedwards

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18,629
Yeah I think Grinkov's cause of death is pretty well established. I went looking for facts after the Valieva scandal precisely because the whole heart medication thing gave me a doubt, but in his case I think there isn't one.
But the fact that they give heart meds to a 15 y.o (who probably was younger than that when they started giving it to her) with no thought for possible consequences to her future health is by far the most pukeworthy fact about this whole debacle.
This is disgusting trash. Having so much hatred you call grinkov doper and try to rewrite his death as an indictment of current people. Stalinist
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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71,984
Everyone has skipped over the part about whether the ostensible struggles of Russian skaters this season are due to a lack of doping. Do people accept Leese's speculation on this, or do they just nots care?
I've watched the entire Russian series and he's full of it. The only two skaters who've had "problems" would be Valieva and Trusova who were both injured over the summer and both grew a lot as teenagers are wont to do. And, all teens go through a period of adjustment to their new bodies. All of them. Valieva is jumping her 3A and Trusova has started adding the quads back. Both have said there was no pressing need to rush and risk further injury since they aren't going to Worlds. The rest of the Russian women are doing fine. Some have had injuries and not competed thus far. Will they show up at Nationals? Who knows? But, those who were jumping 3As and quads last season are jumping them this season. . Scherbakova isn't competing this season (and probably won't come back because why should she??). Tuk's 3A looks stronger than ever. A whole bunch of juniors have 3As and quads just like the junior Japanese skaters. It's a little difficult to judge the junior women vs senior because a lot of the junior eligible skaters did the senior events. Pairs, men and dance are pretty much as they've always been. Aliev is having a fantastic season. Some skaters have said it's been a challenge to find motivation due to not being able to skate on the GP circuit and Worlds and I'm sure that's true. So, before taking Leese's word on anything, perhaps people should actually watch the skaters skate.
 

Karen-W

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I've watched the entire Russian series and he's full of it. The only two skaters who've had "problems" would be Valieva and Trusova who were both injured over the summer and both grew a lot as teenagers are wont to do. And, all teens go through a period of adjustment to their new bodies. All of them. Valieva is jumping her 3A and Trusova has started adding the quads back. Both have said there was no pressing need to rush and risk further injury since they aren't going to Worlds. The rest of the Russian women are doing fine. Some have had injuries and not competed thus far. Will they show up at Nationals? Who knows? But, those who were jumping 3As and quads last season are jumping them this season. . Scherbakova isn't competing this season (and probably won't come back because why should she??). Tuk's 3A looks stronger than ever. A whole bunch of juniors have 3As and quads just like the junior Japanese skaters. It's a little difficult to judge the junior women vs senior because a lot of the junior eligible skaters did the senior events. Pairs, men and dance are pretty much as they've always been. Aliev is having a fantastic season. Some skaters have said it's been a challenge to find motivation due to not being able to skate on the GP circuit and Worlds and I'm sure that's true. So, before taking Leese's word on anything, perhaps people should actually watch the skaters skate.
What do you consider to be "a whole bunch"? It's not that hard to review protocols. We can see who is attempting 3As and quads in the FS on the JGP as well as the SP/FS on the GP, and we can see who are attempting quads in the FS in both the JGP and GP...

Hana Yoshida JPN: Courchevel 3A - rotated but with negative GOE; Egna-Neumarkt 3A
Yujae Kim KOR: Courchevel 3Aq
Mao Shimada JPN: Ostrava 3A, 4T< - fall; Solidarity Cup 3A; 4Tq
Mia Kalin USA: Ostrava 4T+2T, 4T; Baltic Cup 4T<+2T, 4T<
Ami Nakai JPN: Riga 3A<; Baltic Cup 3A
Inga Gurgenidze GEO: Egna-Neumarkt 3A< - fall
Phattarida Kaneshige THA: Egna-Neumarkt 3A< - fall

Sooooo - Japan has 3 women attempting 3As on the JGP, 1 attempting a 4T; the USA has one woman attempting two 4Ts - one in combination; and Korea, Georgia & Thailand each have one woman attempting a 3A. Of those SIX women, 4 achieved positive GOE on at least one of their 3A or 4T attempts, and the same 4 are the only ones who attempted those elements at both of their JGPs, with a success rate of about 50% by the looks of it...

On the senior level... Things haven't really changed all that much on the GP scene... You & Glenn are still getting the < and << calls; Kawabe & Kihira have lost their 3As; Watanabe & Sumiyoshi are brand-new to the senior scene...

Amber Glenn USA: SkAm FS 3A<; NHK FS 3A - rotated but with negative GOE
Rinka Watanabe JPN: SCI SP 3A<; SCI FS 3A; NHK SP 3A< - fall; NHK FS 3A - rotated but with negative GOE
Young You KOR: SCI FS 3A<<
Rion Sumiyoshi JPN: GPdF FS 4T - fall; NHK FS 4T<< - fall

Soooo - that's 4 women attempting 3As on the GP, 1 attempting a 4T and of the 9 attempts only ONE had a positive GOE for a fully rotated jump.

Please, stop gaslighting us into believing that there isn't something very wrong with the sheer volume of Russian women, both at the senior and junior ranks, who have consistent 3As or quads. It does not match what is happening in the discipline across the rest of the globe and it defies belief in clean, pure athletic superiority.
 

caseyedwards

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18,629
@Primorskaya did nothing of the sort. The second statement was about the general situation RIGHT NOW and had nothing to do with Grinkov.
Reading Comprehension: F, sit down.

I read the post. It said the comments gave doubt. This is all part of the disgusting trash going on right now. While the post is not the worst it was about someone trying to see if grinkov was a doping death
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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71,984
What do you consider to be "a whole bunch"? It's not that hard to review protocols. We can see who is attempting 3As and quads in the FS on the JGP as well as the SP/FS on the GP, and we can see who are attempting quads in the FS in both the JGP and GP...

Hana Yoshida JPN: Courchevel 3A - rotated but with negative GOE; Egna-Neumarkt 3A
Yujae Kim KOR: Courchevel 3Aq
Mao Shimada JPN: Ostrava 3A, 4T< - fall; Solidarity Cup 3A; 4Tq
Mia Kalin USA: Ostrava 4T+2T, 4T; Baltic Cup 4T<+2T, 4T<
Ami Nakai JPN: Riga 3A<; Baltic Cup 3A
Inga Gurgenidze GEO: Egna-Neumarkt 3A< - fall
Phattarida Kaneshige THA: Egna-Neumarkt 3A< - fall

Sooooo - Japan has 3 women attempting 3As on the JGP, 1 attempting a 4T; the USA has one woman attempting two 4Ts - one in combination; and Korea, Georgia & Thailand each have one woman attempting a 3A. Of those SIX women, 4 achieved positive GOE on at least one of their 3A or 4T attempts, and the same 4 are the only ones who attempted those elements at both of their JGPs, with a success rate of about 50% by the looks of it...

On the senior level... Things haven't really changed all that much on the GP scene... You & Glenn are still getting the < and << calls; Kawabe & Kihira have lost their 3As; Watanabe & Sumiyoshi are brand-new to the senior scene...

Amber Glenn USA: SkAm FS 3A<; NHK FS 3A - rotated but with negative GOE
Rinka Watanabe JPN: SCI SP 3A<; SCI FS 3A; NHK SP 3A< - fall; NHK FS 3A - rotated but with negative GOE
Young You KOR: SCI FS 3A<<
Rion Sumiyoshi JPN: GPdF FS 4T - fall; NHK FS 4T<< - fall

Soooo - that's 4 women attempting 3As on the GP, 1 attempting a 4T and of the 9 attempts only ONE had a positive GOE for a fully rotated jump.

Please, stop gaslighting us into believing that there isn't something very wrong with the sheer volume of Russian women, both at the senior and junior ranks, who have consistent 3As or quads. It does not match what is happening in the discipline across the rest of the globe and it defies belief in clean, pure athletic superiority.
Since you said you haven't watched any of the events, why don't you do so first. I don't gaslight anybody. Not my style. For someone who likes to claim how they aren't interested in the Russians, you and others who make that claim seem to be in this thread a lot. But, whatever. I don't care if you watch or not. They are what they are and people can see for themselves or they can ignore them. The Russians are skating just fine regardless of what Dave Lease might have to say to the contrary. The number of Russian women doing the ultra-C elements are pretty much the same as they've been the last 4 years or so. That's my point. Are ALL of them doing them? Of course not and that's never been the case. Some of them are Tutberidze's students, some are Plushenkos, and some are actually Davydov and Sokolovskyas and then there's Tuktamysheva. Pairs are pairs, dance is dance and the men are the men. The Russian girls start jumping 3As and quads before they get to juniors, something nobody had a problem with Alysa Liu or Rika Kihira doing or the current young Japanese girls. Do all of them keep the jumps as they get older, of course not and that's always been the situation. Since you're the resident research expert, if you want to know exactly which Russians are doing what, find out for yourself.
 
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LeafOnTheWind

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16,381
For someone who likes to claim how they aren't interested in the Russians, you and others who make that claim seem to be in this thread a lot.

This isn't the Russian skating thread. It's the Russian figure skater tests positive for drugs thread. I keep clicking to see what the latest word is on the medals.

I've ended up in the wrong thread before. Usually when I'm needing sleep but this is the main one I stay in regarding the Russians.
 

4rkidz

plotting, planning and travelling
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13,943
I am curious, when the statement of appeal was posted it also says she would not be eligible for the prizes? what a mess to sort that out and assuming they recouped the prizes they will need to redistribute to the clean skaters next in line?
 

Karen-W

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I am curious, when the statement of appeal was posted it also says she would not be eligible for the prizes? what a mess to sort that out and assuming they recouped the prizes they will need to redistribute to the clean skaters next in line?
Yes, it affects Euros in particular because they didn't have a 25th woman make the FS like they did at the Olympics. Luckily for this season's GP - the #25 woman on the WS (Levito) got 2 GPs, and the #25 woman on the SB was another Russian (Sinitsyna), so no issues there, but it could have been a mess had the #25 on either list not gotten 2 GPs.
 

Karen-W

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Since you said you haven't watched any of the events, why don't you do so first. I don't gaslight anybody. Not my style. For someone who likes to claim how they aren't interested in the Russians, you and others who make that claim seem to be in this thread a lot. But, whatever. I don't care if you watch or not. They are what they are and people can see for themselves or they can ignore them. The Russians are skating just fine regardless of what Dave Lease might have to say to the contrary. The number of Russian women doing the ultra-C elements are pretty much the same as they've been the last 4 years or so. That's my point. Are ALL of them doing them? Of course not and that's never been the case. Some of them are Tutberidze's students, some are Plushenkos, and some are actually Davydov and Sokolovskyas and then there's Tuktamysheva. Pairs are pairs, dance is dance and the men are the men. The Russian girls start jumping 3As and quads before they get to juniors, something nobody had a problem with Alysa Liu or Rika Kihira doing or the current young Japanese girls. Do all of them keep the jumps as they get older, of course not and that's always been the situation. Since you're the resident research expert, if you want to know exactly which Russians are doing what, find out for yourself.
No, I asked YOU what you consider to be "a bunch." You're the one stating that all is just as it has been for the last 4 years with the Russian women and that the numbers are not significantly greater than... And I will quote you once again -

A whole bunch of juniors have 3As and quads just like the junior Japanese skaters. It's a little difficult to judge the junior women vs senior because a lot of the junior eligible skaters did the senior events.
You are attempting to equalize the situation in Russia with the situation outside of Russia with regard to the number of skaters attempting the 3As and quads. That is an assertion that is, factually, incorrect. I've gone back and looked at the protocols from Russian, Japanese and US Nationals just from last season alone and the number of Russian women attempting those high-difficulty elements is on a scale that is so substantially larger than you see from fields of the same size (US - 18 women qualify for Nats) or substantially larger size (Japan - 30 women qualify for Nats) that it's not only laughable but illogical.

The issue is not with Liu, Kihira, or "the current young Japanese girls" - of which there are exactly three - attempting these elements. The issue is that the number of Russian girls attempting and successfully landing these elements is so substantially higher than what you see out of other nations with robust interest in and participation in the sport, especially from young girls, that it defies statistical probability for the success on these elements to be limited only to Russian skaters, even though that is what is actually happening.

All your statements about the current state of Russian women's skating are doing is confirming that no one in Russia is laying off of :grandpa: however they're obtaining whatever cocktail their team doctors have come up with. Zero shame in any of it.
 
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Karina1974

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3,282
They really go out of their way to make a scapegoat of this girl. A 15 year old does not decide on her own to take a heart medicine.

I do too, though I think there are measures in place to protect minors. I have lost respect for the IOC the way they went out of their way to make an example of her with complete disregard for her age. Minors are treated differently because of their age. The IOC as an organization should uphold the rules and regulations with regard to minors and protected person status. Instead, they go out of their way to single her out but withholding the team ceremony and then permit her to compete with the caveat that if she makes the podium, the entire podium will be denied a medal ceremony. I have never heard of this happening in prior Olympics. I believe they made that decision with the expectation that the Russian ladies would sweep the podium. The skateboarding competition had a bunch of 13 year olds competing, and diving 14 year olds. If that organization doesn't understand the concept of confidentiality and protecting a child's interests, then they should just raise the age to 18 across all disciplines and not deal with kids at all.
It was CAS that said she should be allowed to compete in the singles competition, not IOC.

And if minors want to compete in the highest levels or their sport, they should have to follow the same rules as the ADULT competitors. If not, stay in Juniors until they are of age and can handle the pressure and scrutiny of participating in Olympic-level competition.
 

Karina1974

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Are you serious? Both Sandra and Scott were pivotal in the public opinion against B&S in SLC, for a pairs competition that was incredibly close technically. Yet neither of them had a problem with Oksana Baiul winning over Nancy with significantly less technical content
Scott did state in his autobiography that he was furious with CBS trying to paint Jan Hoffmann as the villainous "9th judge" ("a former East German" mind you! who broke the tie and thus deprived Nancy of her gold medal, and he refused to do the voice over explaining the results. Verne Lundquist had to do it.

I have no idea what Sandra's opinion was because she was not part of the CBS Olympic broadcasting team. I only ever saw her on NBC, and they didn't have the Winter Games until 2002.
 

Karina1974

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3,282
The Skating Lesson on YouTube - they had an interesting conversation about the Russian ladies this year suddenly not skating up to last year’s standard.
And going back to Gordeava and Grinkov and questioned if doping could possibly have had a part in his death, since doping in Russian athletics goes back a long way. They also talked about a possible political and economic web between coaches, oligarchs, etc. Best to listen donut yourself and make your own judgements.
Note I used “possible” so am not stating known facts here!

His father died of a heart attack, too, so I call BS on that theory. Both my paternal grandparents had heart attacks, he had a pacemaker put in, and she died of hers. ... Guess how my father died last year? Yup, cardiac arrhythmia, according to his death cert.
 

skatingguy

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His father died of a heart attack, too, so I call BS on that theory. Both my paternal grandparents had heart attacks, he had a pacemaker put in, and she died of hers. ... Guess how my father died last year? Yup, cardiac arrhythmia, according to his death cert.
But Sergei was 28, and his father was 52, so that seems like very different disease progressions to have the same causal factors. I also don't know of any doping program that would cause plaque build in an artery, so any regime he may have been on for training within the Soviet system seems unlikely. Based on what I've read about people in that age range it's not uncommon for a massive heart attack to be the first symptom because who at 28 thinks they would be susceptible, and has a stress test.
 

alexikeguchi

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Strangely, my cousin, age 27, died of a heart attack just a month before Sergei. It was also completely unexpected.
1) There is some imprecision in what is referred to as a "heart attack" by non-medical people. Especially in young and extremely fit people, sudden cardiac death is often the result of an arrhythmia rather than a coronary event. Several elite athletes including Fabrice Muamba and Christian Eriksen have experienced this on the field and survived only because of immediate medical intervention.

2) That being said, Sergei did in fact have coronary disease, and when events occur in young people, they are more likely to be severe/fatal since the patients haven't had time to develop collateral blood flow. Symptoms may also be overlooked since even first responders don't recognize that coronary events can occur in such young people. As a fourth year medical student on my cardiac ICU subinternship, I helped take care of a 21 year old who sat in the ER for hours with classic symptoms and EKG findings of an anterior wall MI because even the physicians there couldn't believe that such a young man could have a coronary event.

I found this article in the NYT archive, and they did at least consider and ultimately reject doping as a contributing factor. Here is a relevant quote:

Preliminary tests have ruled out drugs of abuse as a possible cause of Grinkov's death. Varga, reporting his findings at a news conference, also viewed steroid use as unlikely based on his examination and the lack of a history of use of any drugs.
Grinkov had an athletic build without physical evidence of chronic steroid use and "was clearly in very good health except for this one problem," Varga said. But additional tests for steroids and other drugs will performed by the state police.
 

DreamSkates

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His father died of a heart attack, too, so I call BS on that theory. Both my paternal grandparents had heart attacks, he had a pacemaker put in, and she died of hers. ... Guess how my father died last year? Yup, cardiac arrhythmia, according to his death cert.
That makes sense, that heart problems are passed down genetically so yes that could have been a factor for Grinkov.
 

Karen-W

Neither sexy nor sultry, but loving life!
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Nobody had a problem with Alyssa Liu doing all those harder jumps at a very young age? This board was full of people moaning about how unwise it was. What revisionist history.
People here had issues/concerns with her technique - that it wouldn't last beyond puberty. Turns out, those concerns were accurate.
 

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