Royalty Thread #16: the best of times, the worst of times

[Lynn226]

If William & Kate don't want to meet with Harry & Meghan I hope they will let their kids meet their cousins.

In my experience, cousins have a way of finding their way to each other. Each child will eventually be an independent adult.

My dad and his siblings never got along, but my cousins and I always have.

 

[Winnipeg]

I do not fully understand this "rift" between Harry and William. What can be so bad they do not even want to see each other?

 

[canbelto]

I do not fully understand this "rift" between Harry and William. What can be so bad they do not even want to see each other?

Both spoiled, stubborn, entitled? With a boatload of trauma bc of shitty, manipulative parents? Just a guess.

 

[Karen-W]

I do not fully understand this "rift" between Harry and William. What can be so bad they do not even want to see each other?

Apart from letting his wife through their media mouthpiece, Omid Scobie, call her a racist? Or all the private family tiffs & arguments he shared in "Spare"? And don't get him started on the toxic Sussex Squad social media crew who regularly attack Catherine & his children which was especially bad when she received her cancer diagnosis & was going through the initial treatment - and there's some evidence that Meghan tacitly supports their behavior (she's sent As Ever products to at least a couple of the worst Sussex Squaders & they've bragged about it on their SM).

 

[MLIS]

I do not fully understand this "rift" between Harry and William. What can be so bad they do not even want to see each other?

Depends on whose version of which story you believe. Harry clearly has years of resentment built up of being the second child, the less important one, the spare. He talks in his book about William having the bigger bedroom, getting extra sausages at breakfast, etc. That extended into adulthood, where William is the heir, with a defined place and role, and Harry’s interests, charities, and schedule always had to come second. When he met the woman he loved and wanted to marry, they were not welcoming to her, said racist things, and didn’t appreciate the value and reforms she could bring. Add to that the obvious PTSD from his mother’s death (manifesting as paranoia about the safety of his wife and children), his time in Afghanistan, and the really, really weird way those boys were raised. And now he wants to find a way back in and William is freezing him out and whispering in their father’s ear to keep the doors closed.

From William’s perspective, Harry has spent the last several years repeatedly attacking all William holds dear, including his wife and children, during a period of intense difficulty and change, with the death of their grandparents, their father’s accession to the throne and the related changes in William’s roles and responsibilities, and the illnesses of both his wife and his father. Harry was supposed to be William’s closest supporter, both as a brother and a member of the “firm,” and instead betrayed him over and over. Notoriously private, William has seen Harry spill private, personal conversations and encounters all over the media, always portraying himself and his wife as the victims and knowing William won’t be able to respond in the same way. If you believe the story about how Charlotte was bullied by Meghan in the lead up to the wedding, that in and of itself would be enough for me to keep my children away from her/them for a very long time.

Of course we don’t know any of these people in real life, we don’t know what apologies or explanations may have been offered behind the scenes, but they seem very far apart at the moment.

 

[Vagabond]

@MLIS I would give that last post of yours a if that were an available option.

 

[puglover]

My impression is that "rift" is a huge understatement. We now know that at the very least Prince Harry had a lot of resentment left over from earlier years and he never was going to be the supportive younger sibling doing the grunt work and all he can to support the crown as Princess Anne does for King Charles. To add to it, they married women who had nothing in common and were most unlikely to be friends. I think Meghan is happy in California and did not want to abide by the restrictions on her that were part and parcel of living in GB and being a working royal. They have friends and supporters and seem to have formed their own "family". They have only seemed to maintain relationships with Princess Eugenie and her husband and the Spencers. Princess Eugenie is facing her own challenges due to her dad at the moment.

It is wonderful that the children met with their grandfather and perhaps that can be a bit of a beginning. I just don't see the big appeal of cousins when their parents are so at odds. Maybe, in time, but they are being raised so differently. The unfortunate thing seems to be that Prince Harry was raised to be a working royal and he seems suited for that and not much else. Sentebale and Invictus (his two big achievements) both need the charismatic Prince Harry to focus on them - the actual children and disabled servicepersons the charities are meant to support

 

[Winnipeg]

Really good answers from posters above!

 

[Karen-W]

Sentebale and Invictus (his two big achievements) both need the charismatic Prince Harry to focus on them - the actual children and disabled servicepersons the charities are meant to support

He's no longer with Sentebale - and is, in fact, being sued by their current director/chair over some slanderous things he & his pals said about her. It's a mess - and a real shame that he is no longer involved.

 

[puglover]

I find his latest loss to the Daily Mail group interesting. Harry has a deep hatred of the media and in some cases that is justified and he has won previously. However, this latest court case where he and his co-accusers sued for millions alleging illegal, unscrupulous practices on behalf of the newspaper group and specific journalists is different. Non of the illegal events at least he cited - 97 in total from the the claimants - could be proven and many took place a decade or more ago. It has been hell for four years for the accused journalists - mostly women - and well known and respected - Katie Nicholl, Rebecca English, Charlotte Griffith. Prince Harry is all buttoned up now but by his own admission he wasn't always that way and was quite rebellious. He claims the journalists had to have used illegal means to gain information because non of his friends would have talked. The journalists (professionals) kept their old notebooks and facebook postings going back decades and what it really showed was that they liked Harry and often protected him. Richard Kay, from the Mail, was a dear friend of his mother and the last person to speak to her aside from those she was with that terrible night. So now Harry is accusing this of being a whitewash when Charlotte Griffith who Harry partied with has notes of him sliding a white pill into her mouth and then saying - Now I know you will have to keep my secrets. Apparently, she did not swallow it. They have lots of proof that he partied hard and he was not too worried about who knew it then.

Further to the will-he-won't he of Harry staying at Buckingham Palace. He had declined the offer and then it became public that the judgement on his case with the Daily Mail would be likely be released on Tuesday. Harry changed his position last minute and apparently asked to stay at Buckingham Palace Tuesday night only. It was very short notice - and it would greatly complicate the king's position if Harry was to have broadcast from Buckingham Palace slamming his father's own legal system.

 

[taf2002]

I have learned not to believe any quotes coming from any of the royals-including Harry & Meghan. Example: Charles offered Buckingham, Harry accepted, Harry backed out, Harry changed his mind & wanted Buckingham, Charles now said no. But where did Harry stay? Buckingham.

There are 2 people posting on this thread who clearly favor either Harry or William. But none of us have the inside information that it would take to be definite on what we believe is real. I doubt the issue with Harry is that he wanted to be heir apparent. I think both boys deserved to be treated alike. I can't imagine how it felt for your own father the call you "spare".

 

[Winnipeg]

There was also a lot of gossip re whether Charles was his bio father or not. Maybe Charles inadvertently showed favoritism and that would be tough for a child.

 

[canbelto]

I follow Meghan on insta and she seems to be having the kind of life she always wanted: near her friends and family in California, doing lifestyle influencer stuff. She has a lot of drive that Harry seems to lack.

 

[puglover]

From all I have read, the more complicated relationship father to son has been (at least until the last few years) between Charles and William. William will succeed him and has views as to how he wants to modernize the monarchy - William wants fewer patronages - less pomp and ceremony - giving some of the land they receive payment for back to the people - to name a few. William was also older and more aware of the issues in his parent's relationship and was seen as having the pressure of being one of his mother's confidants. I think that their wives - Camilla and Catherine - have had very positive influences on their husbands and the children bring joy that overshadows most hard feelings.

I am not sure if Harry really lacks drive or he just was raised and trained for a very specific lifestyle and he no longer lives it. I truly believe Queen Elizabeth was 100% right in saying that the monarchy (working royals) can't be half in. It seems very challenging to combine humanitarian work and money making.

 

[MLIS]

Harry, for all his complaints about William being favoured in their childhood, has never had to work for anything. Things were handled and managed for him in a thousand ways he probably still doesn’t realize. For things like setting up Invictus and Sentable, he had oodles of resources and staff, including his grandmother’s and father’s advisors and secretaries. Now that he doesn’t have those resources he doesn’t seem to know how to make things happen. Meghan has always had to hustle and work to make things happen for herself. She may enjoy the perks of royalty, but she knows how to get by without them.

I get the sense William resisted his fate for a long time, he didn’t like the attention when he was younger and a lot of responsibility was put on his shoulders, both in terms of being the heir and also in managing his parents’ relationship and particularly his mother’s emotions and volatility, from a young age. He has obviously come to terms with it all now, with the support of a happy marriage and family of his own.

 

[Sparks]

Serving in the military and being stationed in Afghanistan is not working?

 

[Parsley Sage]

I have learned not to believe any quotes coming from any of the royals-including Harry & Meghan. Example: Charles offered Buckingham, Harry accepted, Harry backed out, Harry changed his mind & wanted Buckingham, Charles now said no. But where did Harry stay? Buckingham.

There are 2 people posting on this thread who clearly favor either Harry or William. But none of us have the inside information that it would take to be definite on what we believe is real. I doubt the issue with Harry is that he wanted to be heir apparent. I think both boys deserved to be treated alike. I can't imagine how it felt for your own father the call you "spare".

Where did you read/see that Harry stayed at Buckingham?

 

[taf2002]

There was also a lot of gossip re whether Charles was his bio father or not. Maybe Charles inadvertently showed favoritism and that would be tough for a child.

I thought that slander had been disproved a long time ago.

From all I have read, the more complicated relationship father to son has been (at least until the last few years) between Charles and William. William will succeed him and has views as to how he wants to modernize the monarchy - William wants fewer patronages - less pomp and ceremony - giving some of the land they receive payment for back to the people - to name a few. William was also older and more aware of the issues in his parent's relationship and was seen as having the pressure of being one of his mother's confidants. I think that their wives - Camilla and Catherine - have had very positive influences on their husbands and the children bring joy that overshadows most hard feelings.

I think the favoritism started when they were very young, not when William was older & started getting info & responsibilities. Didn't Spare-the book say that Harry heard "spare" when he was pretty young?

Where did you read/see that Harry stayed at Buckingham?

It's the last thing I read after the original will he or won't he. So I really don't know where he laid his head.

 

[skategal]

Serving in the military and being stationed in Afghanistan is not working?

I know, right? I see Harry as very hard working.

 

[ballettmaus]

Serving in the military and being stationed in Afghanistan is not working?

I think there's a difference between "working" and "working for" something which is what the OP said.

I may not understand the post the way it was meant but I interpreted that to mean that Harry (and I don't think William did either) had to go through things like application processes, job interviews etc.
For example, both he and William served. Did they have to go through the process every day citizens go through when they apply at the military or were they just in because of who they were? They both worked once in the military but did they have to work to get in? (Of course, there's the question if either would have wanted to join the military had they not been royals but that's a different matter).

When every-day people leave high school, they have to choose a path. They can adjust that path but generally, it's good to have an idea of what it is that you want to do with your life. Neither Harry nor William had to make that choice and I understand that Harry might be struggling now that he does have the freedom. It's not easy to suddenly be able to do whatever you want while maybe also having to earn an income. He was not raised to lead the life he's leading now and it may make him feel directionless (at times).
At the same time, I understand that his role as the second child may have already left him a bit in limbo long before he left the UK. William's role was always defined, there was a clear goal for him: become Prince of Wales then king.
As for Harry, I think he can be compared to the US Vice President's role: stay alive and be ready just in case otherwise, we don't really care what you do as long as it's compatible with/sanctioned by and beneficial to "the firm".

With that said, from what I've read, Harry seems like someone who got lost in his victim mindset to the point where he stopped considering how life was like for others. My impression is that to Harry, it's all about what he didn't have and someone else had but not what he had that someone else didn't have. Eg, to Harry, William looked like the favorite, like the one who got more attention but has he looked at the reason for the attention William got? Has he looked beyond the attention at all the expectations and pressure I'm sure rested on William's shoulders from a very young age on which Harry didn't have in the same way? The freedoms that I think Harry had that William didn't have?
I'm not so sure that if Harry were honest with himself, he would have wanted William's life or would want it.

Meghan seems to have given Harry the push he needed to do something about his situation. I'm not under the impression that that helped him leave his victim mindset behind, though.

I wonder if some of the envy Harry seems to feel also comes from the fact that William got to spend more time with their mother rather than the actual life William had.

As much as I loved princesses and wanted to be one as a child (mostly for the dresses, the more ruffles and wider the skirts the better ), I wouldn't want to trade places with either Harry or William for the world.

It also always makes me happy when I see pictures from the Swedish royals and Estelle is out and about with her mother and grandfather and smiles brightly as if she is having the time of her life. It looks like they figured out how to make Estelle's role fun for her which I think is how it should be.

 

[puglover]

Well, perception is everything but Harry was the second most liked royal after only Queen Elizabeth. He does have some of his mother's natural way with people, ease with children, and more approachable demeanor. Maybe he didn't love what he was born to do but I think he was very good at it and is only now fully realizing that. He was very friendly and well liked by the very journalists he has recently sued which leaves them feeling betrayed. I am sure it can be a lonely life going to so many engagements to meet a lot of strangers and those familiar friendly faces from the press corps that follow the royals are appreciated. Harry was the same age as some of them. One I like to read was in Africa with Harry when the idea for Sentebale took root. She felt for a young sheltered man he had a huge emotional I.Q. Now, sadly, he is out of it and being sued and he sued her. I think the lawyers are the big winners.

I wish Harry and Meghan the best. I do believe a lot of damage has been done with both her family and his and I also believe Meghan is happy with the life they have in California. Never say never but this is no easy fix.

 

[MacMadame]

For example, both he and William served. Did they have to go through the process every day citizens go through when they apply at the military or were they just in because of who they were? They both worked once in the military but did they have to work to get in? (Of course, there's the question if either would have wanted to join the military had they not been royals but that's a different matter).

Nobody has to work to get into the military. They take anyone in a certain age range who doesn't have specific medical conditions and who can pass whatever competency test they have-- which anyone with an average IQ (or even slightly lower) can pass.

And in the US, anyone with a college degree can enter the Officer program. The UK doesn't even require a degree but it does have requirements about A levels and stuff like that.

 

[ballettmaus]

I am sure it can be a lonely life going to so many engagements to meet a lot of strangers and those familiar friendly faces from the press corps that follow the royals are appreciated.

Interestingly enough, that made me think that it can also be the other way around, that Harry's life now feels empty. He had a purpose before, albeit, one he may not have chosen and that may have been somewhat undefined. But I wouldn't be surprised if he wonders what his purpose is now, especially since he wasn't prepared to lead the life he needs now.

Nobody has to work to get into the military.

I grew up in Berlin where serving in the military was prohibited until the wall came down. You had to go to West Germany if you wanted to serve. Additionally, I'm female which means I didn't need to care about requirements one way or another.
I assumed there were requirements one has to fulfill. Apparently, I assumed so wrongly, however, I don't see what is so funny about it. It may not have been your intention, still, it makes me feel like I'm being laughed at for not knowing something and, what's more, for making an assumption that I largely made to give an example of what I was getting at.

They take anyone in a certain age range who doesn't have specific medical conditions and who can pass whatever competency test they have-- which anyone with an average IQ (or even slightly lower) can pass.

So, there are requirements/a test one has to go through? This was my point, regardless of how difficult it is to pass or not, did Harry and William? Were they treated like everyone else?

 

[cygnus]

William and Harry both did their officer training at Sandhurst, which does not require a degree to enter, but you do need A levels and GCSEs and there is a tough board and interview process- I think about 30% of applicants are accepted. According to some inside sources I have, Harry barely qualified academically, but was accepted- presumably he did better on the physical tests.

 

[Vagabond]

Harry had only two A Levels, a B in Art and a D in Geography. I very much doubt that a commoner with such credentials would have been admitted to Sandhurst.

William went to St. Andrews and then received training in order to be commissioned in the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force. As far as I know, to be eligible for such training, an applicant normally has to have at least a 2:1, which William did.

(Edited for accuracy.)

 

[cygnus]

Harry had only two A Levels, a B in Art and a D in Geography. I very much doubt that a commoner with such credentials would have been admitted to Sandhurst.

William didn't go to Sandhurst. He went to St. Andrews and then received training in order to be commissioned in the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force. As far as I know, to be eligible for such training, an applicant normally has to have at least a 2:1, which William did.

William did go to Sandhurst after St Andrews in 2005/2006 for a 44 week Officer training course. He would have been well qualified to be accepted with his degree. https://www.forcesnews.com/news/prince-william-duke-cambridges-military-career

 

[canbelto]

I really get the feeling that without Meghan, Harry would spend most of his days playing polo and sulking. Meghan is driven and creating the kind of life she wanted. It's a real difference between someone who was given all his priviledges and someone who had to work and hustle for all her priviledges.

 

[Karen-W]

I really get the feeling that without Meghan, Harry would spend most of his days playing polo and sulking. Meghan is driven and creating the kind of life she wanted. It's a real difference between someone who was given all his priviledges and someone who had to work and hustle for all her priviledges.

I think without Meghan, Harry would definitely spend his days playing polo and lolling about, though I'm not sure he'd be sulking. He's not a deep enough thinker, IMO, to have internalized his resentment toward his family & especially William in the way he has in the decade since Meghan came into his life without external influences. Yes, it was always there, but had he found a wife who was comfortable with and understood the role & expectations for a married-in Duchess of the British Royal Family were not the same as the jet-setting, glamorous Monegasque princely family, then he would have likely continued to coast along as he had been pre-Meghan. The issue was and always has been that Meghan wanted all the glitz & glam with none of the critique that comes from a healthy, robust press & a constitutional monarchy. I hadn't really thought about it in this way before now, but, really, Meghan would have fit in much better as Prince Albert's consort down in Monaco where he's an absolute ruler & everything is a bit more free-wheeling than it is in Great Britain.

 

[puglover]

Could be true but Prince Albert's wife Charlene does not seem the picture of happiness. I am a person of few real passions but family, figure skating, and all things British, especially the monarchy and Queen Elizabeth are really IT now. You poor people get a double whammy so feel free to scroll on by.

 

[Karen-W]

Could be true but Prince Albert's wife Charlene does not seem the picture of happiness.

Charlene hasn't been the picture of happiness since before their wedding when rumors were flying around about his past affairs. IIRC, speculation at the time was she wanted to call the whole thing off. Perhaps Meghan would have felt the same way had she been in Charlene's shoes, but I'm doubtful.