Presidential Politics 2024

[On My Own]

The course in question is a pilot and hasn’t been tested. The Florida Board of Education has reviewed the curriculum and determined it lacks educational content and possibly contravenes the law. Ron DeSantis supports the Florida Board of Education's findings. The Florida Board of Education has said it's willing to reconsider the course if the problems are fixed. Insiders seem to acknowledge that the course is problematic and too heavy on theory, and most of Florida's objections will be addressed. I'm not getting this from the conservative media. I'm getting this from the New York Times (gifted).

Honestly, that article and this paragraph just prove that you people don't know what you're talking about at all. You're basically saying that African American studies shouldn't have viewpoints of African American scholars because it's indoctrination to include them.

Prancer brings up the same point I had, that all History is biased, so you're already taking in points of views. I learned this from my parents in middle school. It's a shame you never did.

 

[Prancer]

If only it were that easy!

Of course, I can't even get my students to actually read much of anything...

Ain't that the truth.

In response to @PRlady, in science a theory is a coherent group of propositions formulated to explain a group of facts or phenomena in the natural world and repeatedly confirmed through experiment or observation, something evolutionay biology has done multiple times through multiple disciplines including genetics, molecular biology, geology, paleoanthropology, etc., etc., etc.. The repeatedly comfirmed through experiment or observation being the key element. That is what separates a scientific theory apart from speculation, opinion, or religious dogma.

Which I, at least, learned in grade school and I imagine Private Citizen did as well, probably earlier than I did.

I am not sure what alternatives to evolution should be taught in a science class.

 

[rfisher]

I am not sure what alternatives to evolution should be taught in a science class.

Exactly.

 

[Private Citizen]

What do you mean by "high level"? Is that some special thing that means something other than "reviewed"?

Well, I read that article at what might have been a high level and all I see is that the Florida BoE asserts that there is "woke indoctrination" (nothing politically partisan there) because they don't approve of the readings.

High-level means skimmed. I did not read the 81-page document in full, but I flipped through it.

The Florida BoE has put forth very specific objections. I tried to find a source other than Twitter but can't. In any case, here are their specific objections as tweeted (with political language around the image) from a Florida state senator: https://twitter.com/SenMannyDiazJr/status/1616565048767385601/photo/1.

As stated in the New York Times, Florida is legally obligated to teach Black and African-American history. Florida expressed openness to offering this specific AP course, currently untested and in pilot, in the future if their concerns were addressed, including compliance with Florida state law. Yes, some of the wording, particularly in the tweets, is incendiary and political. At the same time, the list of objections is so specific that I think it would be hard for Florida to wriggle out of offering the course if the objections are addressed. And, again, from the New York Times, it sounds like some or all of Florida's objections were already under consideration.

So if I assign a reading in class that takes a point of view, I am indoctrinating students? Is there any reading I can assign about history besides dates and events that isn't going to have a point of view?

If you assign a reading that takes a point of view, and if there are other competing points of view, I think you have an obligation to present those competing points of view. Especially if those points of view align to religious or political ideology.

I find the idea that having students read something will somehow make them magically accept and adopt that something to be bizarre.

Perhaps I was naive as a child, but I have a long list of examples from my educational history - from kindergarten all the way through graduate school - where I felt like I was indoctrinated, where information was withheld or deliberately twisted due to a teacher's point of view, and where opposing points of view were not presented or deliberately silenced. I can also cite several instances where I believe I received poor marks due to failure to swallow "theory" not supported by data or facts.

When I speak to young people, I encourage them to question authority - whether it's a teacher, a textbook, or anything else - far more than I did. I hope they do.

 

[PRlady]

Exactly.

We’ve got the same problem with teaching evolution here in Israel; different group of religious fundamentalists but same objections. Thus, in ultra-Orthodox schools funded by the state (Sarah Sanders’ dream arrangement) noone learns evolution or much math, Hebrew language or anything but the Bible and Talmud. But of course that worldview is not a “viewpoint” - only humanists have viewpoints - but the unerring word of god.

 

[once_upon]

@Private Citizen if I recall correctly your education, particularly early education was driven by Catholicism which indeed has indoctrination in basis. Private schools often do.

 

[On My Own]

If you assign a reading that takes a point of view, and if there are other competing points of view, I think you have an obligation to present those competing points of view. Especially if those points of view align to religious or political ideology.

What are the competing points of view to Marxism and CRT?

 

[rfisher]

We’ve got the same problem with teaching evolution here in Israel; different group of religious fundamentalists but same objections. Thus, in ultra-Orthodox schools funded by the state (Sarah Sanders’ dream arrangement) noone learns evolution or much math, Hebrew language or anything but the Bible and Talmud. But of course that worldview is not a “viewpoint” - only humanists have viewpoints - but the unerring word of god.

Sanders isn't promoting this as the word of god, it's much more insidious. It's the promotion of education given the state has a rather dismal record (mostly in Pulaski County which did not vote for her). If you listen to her argument, it's all about the children! It's not. I was so proud of a family friend who was on the LR School board for 15 years and served as president for over a year who came out with an editorial talking about the real issues with the schools, (poverty being the biggest one) and how taking money away and giving it to the private schools (most are religious, but there's a whole new crop that are not but are ALL located in the white, middle to upper class parts of the city) will most certainly not fix the problem. Everybody knows it's the new 21st century segregration of elite/poor and white/black. Now, those poor families can certainly go where they wish, but it's not Sarah's fault if they can't get there. Nobody knows what this is going to mean for rural schools apart from consolidation. You have to step away from the rhetoric and look at the results.

 

[Prancer]

High-level means skimmed. I did not read the 81-page document in full, but I flipped through it.

Ah, okay. Well, I've been reading it (as much as I can through the watermark). So far, I see a variety of views; for example, in the section on Resistance, I see that the students are supposed to read about active resistance, passive resistance, non-resistance, and possibly about issues specific to women and resistance.

It helps that I recognize a lot of the authors.

If you assign a reading that takes a point of view, and if there are other competing points of view, I think you have an obligation to present those competing points of view. Especially if those points of view align to religious ideology.

Any competing point of view? If I'm teaching Geography, do I have to present Flat Earth beliefs?

Perhaps I was naive as a child, but I have a long list of examples from my educational history - from kindergarten all the way through graduate school - where I felt like I was indoctrinated, where information was withheld or deliberately twisted due to a teacher's point of view, and where opposing points of view were not presented or deliberately silenced.

Well, you did go to Catholic schools, no? That's pretty much the point.

I can also cite several instances where I believe I received poor marks due to failure to swallow "theory" not supported by data or facts.

I can think of only one, and that was in ninth grade English, when my teacher assigned us a book about how the world would end in Armageddon in 1980. She was trying to save us. I read the entire book and on all my exams and essays, specified "According to the book." She was not pleased, although she didn't pencil whip me too much because she knew she was out of line teaching the book to begin with. That's the only one I can remember.

The benefits of a public school education, I suppose.

When I speak to young people, I encourage them to question authority - whether it's a teacher, a textbook, or anything else - far more than I did. I hope they do.

IME (since we are swapping personal stories here), the students who think best are not those who question authority, but who consider most things put in front of them as something they can learn about and from, whether they end up accepting it or not, while the ones who have the worst thinking skills are those who reject anything that doesn't match their particular world view and actively resist things that are taught in class. The latter usually pride themselves on their independent thinking skills. The former may or may not agree with what they read, but they don't refuse to read it because of the subject matter. They read it first and then think about a while.

 

[Pink Cats]

If you assign a reading that takes a point of view, and if there are other competing points of view, I think you have an obligation to present those competing points of view. Especially if those points of view align to religious or political ideology.

So if I'm teaching a Politics course and we are covering human rights and the equality of all people I am required to teach the view point of groups of people like the Catholic Church, certain branches of Islam, Jewish sects among other who view women as less.

 

[On My Own]

Well PC turned out to be no different than the one between K and M.

 

[jeffisjeff]

When I teach young people, I encourage them to bow down to my authoritah.

 

[Prancer]

When I teach young people, I encourage them to bow down to my authoritah.

I'm sure that works about as well as me saying "Everyone MUST READ the entire article. No skimming!"

 

[jeffisjeff]

On a more serious note, I see that defenders of DeSantis' actions are using the fact that "Florida law requires the study of African American history"* as evidence that this is not a racist act. I actually think the opposite is true. DeSantis wants to ensure that Florida young people only learn his version of African American history, which won't make anyone feel bad about themselves, their ancestors, their country's history, etc. What a bunch of racist snowflakes.

* As quoted from the NYT article, which I guess means that schools must teach it and students must take a class that covers it?

 

[Aussie Willy]

I find it ironic that there never appears to be an issue with religious educational institutions teaching their version of religion as facts. But what is happening in Florida is trying to negate teaching of facts because it doesn't align with some people having their feelings hurt.

And who are the snowflakes?

 

[tony]

DeSantis is doing all of this to gravitate towards the segment of the population he knows he can get from Trump, and I'm sure he's hopeful he pulls in more moderates. His MO was pretty clear when he was always in favor of vaccines and then shifted to the opposite-- was it perhaps because Trump finally spoke up about the vaccines being a good thing and getting booed at his own rally? He's playing a game, and it's working in many parts of Florida-- we saw what happened with the vote in Miami and we see immigrants who insist the country will be socialist because of Democrats, even though many immigrants benefit from entities that are somewhat.. socialist in concept.

Anyways, seeing how he made a big production over masks not working and telling students to take them off right before he gave a speech, how long until he determines which science is actually real in his mind (and can continue to be taught) and which science is pointless?

 

[Private Citizen]

I am not sure what alternatives to evolution should be taught in a science class.

I agree with you, and my comments are specific to history class. Plus, evolution and creationism are not incompatible, except for very strict creationists.

What are the competing points of view to Marxism and CRT?

It's very easy to assign a reading criticizing Marxism (I read several in university) or CRT (which didn't exist when I was in university).

Ah, okay. Well, I've been reading it (as much as I can through the watermark). So far, I see a variety of views; for example, in the section on Resistance, I see that the students are supposed to read about active resistance, passive resistance and possibly about issues specific to women and resistance.

Yes, Florida only objected to six out of the more than 100 topics in the pilot curriculum.

As for religious v. secular schools, the bias in the religious schools was more obvious and clearly stated. In some ways that made it better, not worse, than the secular schools, whose agenda was every bit as strong but generally unspoken.

 

[rfisher]

I wonder if DeSantis will allow this new book to be taught in FL colleges? https://mahb.stanford.edu/library-item/speciesism-like-racism-imperils-humanity-and-the-planet/

And it's open access so they could read it for free!

 

[Amy L]

how long until he determines which science is actually real in his mind (and can continue to be taught) and which science is pointless?

I'd guess that germ theory is living on borrowed time...

 

[Prancer]

As for religious v. secular schools, the bias in the religious schools was more obvious and clearly stated. In some ways that made it better, not worse, than the secular schools, whose agenda was every bit as strong but generally unspoken.

If you say so. I have never thought that any school I attended had an agenda and had only a few professors who had what I considered an agenda--which they always stated right up front. But even there, there were times that I disagreed with them and I think I was treated quite fairly. Sometimes a professor would tell me he or she disagreed with everything I said, but I would still get a good grade and even praise because I was able to make a case for myself.

In terms of history, for example, I was taught history the way it was taught in my day--it was very colonialist and designed to make me a patriotic American. But I don't see that as an agenda; that's how all my teachers were taught as well and all of that was just considered the Truth by general agreement. What other approach is there? And please don't say that we should teach all kinds of views in history class when you are here arguing that Florida has the right to suppress assigned readings based on ideology.

This also applies to my kids. I can't think of a single thing they were ever taught in school--even if I disagreed with those things--that I thought was based on some sort of agenda. I did think that the teachers at the school were rather overwhelmingly conservative, but I live in a conservative area and figure that was to be expected. I didn't have a problem with the way any of them taught class, at least not in terms of politics or agendas or whatever. I think my kids got a good education. I don't think a good education should be defined by me insisting that the school teach everything the way I think. My kids got enough of that at home--and I am and was well aware that what they got at home would most likely be what stuck anyway. I see it in students every day.

I did have two professors who slammed me in the gradebook because they didn't like me; both of them said I had a bad attitude (they were right), which is teacher-speak for "I want to punch you in the face every time I see you in class, but I'd get fired," but that's not the same thing.

 

[PrincessLeppard]

I'm sure that works about as well as me saying "Everyone MUST READ the entire article. No skimming!"

Also "high-level" equals skimming? Dude.

Speaking of indoctrination, the state of Nebraska requires "...the teaching of American history from approved textbooks, taught so as to make the course interesting and attractive and to develop a love of country. In at least two grades of every high school, three periods per week must be devoted to civics, including the constitutions of the United States and Nebraska; the benefits and advantages of our form of government; the dangers and fallacies of Nazism; communism, and similar ideologies; and the duties of citizenship. Appropriate patriotic exercises must be held for Lincoln’s birthday, Washington’s birthday, Flag Day, Memorial Day, and Veteran’s Day."

But I suppose that's the right kind of indoctrination.

 

[Aussie Willy]

On a more serious note, I see that defenders of DeSantis' actions are using the fact that "Florida law requires the study of African American history"* as evidence that this is not a racist act. I actually think the opposite is true. DeSantis wants to ensure that Florida young people only learn his version of African American history, which won't make anyone feel bad about themselves, their ancestors, their country's history, etc. What a bunch of racist snowflakes.

* As quoted from the NYT article, which I guess means that schools must teach it and students must take a class that covers it?

De Santis has said when interviewed (summary from press conference):

• The reason for the change to the law has nothing to do with race but rather they are using it as a basis to teach gender based issues (interpretation - so let's attack LGBTQI to deflect from it being racist)
• That black people will be happy about these changes

Another comment he threw in was about prisons and that Dems want to see them closed. Of couse without any context around the discussions of the prison system. Again he claims it was about being respectful of black people and what they want.

The gaslighting is incredible.

 

[Prancer]

The Florida BoE has put forth very specific objections. I tried to find a source other than Twitter but can't. In any case, here are their specific objections as tweeted (with political language around the image) from a Florida state senator: https://twitter.com/SenMannyDiazJr/status/1616565048767385601/photo/1.

So now that I have more time, I looked at your Twitter thread and the first thing that struck me was the language--INCLUDES readings from.

Nowhere did I see that the readings were restricted to readings from.

So I went to the curriculum. One sample listing from the curriculum that is apparently an issue: "Students may explore a text from the writings of Kimberlé Crenshaw, Patricia Hill Collins, or Angela Davis." Shocker! Students may read about black feminist theory from the most influential black feminist writers....or they may not. They may also explore texts from other writers, but I don't see anything about the other authors.

It seems to me this isn't about students being restricted from reading multiple points of view. It's about students being restricted from exposure to certain views.

 

[On My Own]

It's very easy to assign a reading criticizing Marxism (I read several in university) or CRT (which didn't exist when I was in university).

How do you and DeSantis know the teachers won't?

 

[PRlady]

Also "high-level" equals skimming? Dude.

Speaking of indoctrination, the state of Nebraska requires "...the teaching of American history from approved textbooks, taught so as to make the course interesting and attractive and to develop a love of country. In at least two grades of every high school, three periods per week must be devoted to civics, including the constitutions of the United States and Nebraska; the benefits and advantages of our form of government; the dangers and fallacies of Nazism; communism, and similar ideologies; and the duties of citizenship. Appropriate patriotic exercises must be held for Lincoln’s birthday, Washington’s birthday, Flag Day, Memorial Day, and Veteran’s Day."

But I suppose that's the right kind of indoctrination.

What’s hilarious is that Russia has perfected this method. Some of the new laws are right out of their playbook: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/29/magazine/memory-laws.html

 

[On My Own]

In any case, here are their specific objections as tweeted (with political language around the image) from a Florida state senator: https://twitter.com/SenMannyDiazJr/status/1616565048767385601/photo/1.

So now that I have more time, I looked at your Twitter thread and the first thing that struck me was the language--INCLUDES readings from.

From the QRTs on this... can someone tell me what a "woke KKK monster" is?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1617755703674048512

 

[MacMadame]

The only time I had a teacher give me lower grades because of my disagreeing with her, it was a conservative teacher imposing her pro-war agenda on the entire class. The more liberal teachers were much more tolerant of the conservative students and welcomed them bringing up alternative POV because it helped with teaching critical thinking skills which was a goal of many of my High School and College classes.

 

[Reuven]

In response to @PRlady, in science a theory is a coherent group of propositions formulated to explain a group of facts or phenomena in the natural world and repeatedly confirmed through experiment or observation, something evolutionay biology has done multiple times through multiple disciplines including genetics, molecular biology, geology, paleoanthropology, etc., etc., etc.. The repeatedly comfirmed through experiment or observation being the key element. That is what separates a scientific theory apart from speculation, opinion, or religious dogma.

This. Creationists and other anti-science people seem to equate scientific theory with literary theory (my term, I think). The latter being nothing more than supposition.

Mike Pompeo seems to have put out a book due to his presidential aspirations. I guess he thinks Mohammed Bin Salman is popular with voters as he apparently lauds him and downplays the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. Interesting strategy...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/01/24/pompeo-khashoggi-saudi-arabia-murder/

I bet his book sales were dismal, so either he or his PR team decided an outrageous quote was needed to stoke up controversy to drive sales.

 

[Prancer]

From the QRTs on this... can someone tell me what a "woke KKK monster" is?

As far as I can tell, only Sarah Braasch knows for sure, as she is the only one who uses the term, but apparently she applies it to anyone who claims that systemic racism exists. She calls that the Living While Black Race Hoax.

Sarah Braasch was at one time rather infamous for this incident and has since made that the focus of her online life. She's, um, rather troubled, I think.

This. Creationists and other anti-science people seem to equate scientific theory with literary theory (my term, I think). The latter being nothing more than supposition.

Literary theory is a term used in the Humanities and it is not just supposition. I think you might mean the colloquial use of the word "theory."

 

[On My Own]

Sarah Braasch was at one time rather infamous for this incident and has since made that the focus of her online life. She's, um, rather troubled, I think.

This sounds like something out of the Onion. Was she given a suspension, at least?