Political news from elsewhere

Vagabond

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You may not believe me but what you see from your media are not what's happening in HK, see the following clips for example....
Has it ever occurred to you that it's possible for a bunch of people could be singing "Do You Hear the People Sing" at a certain time and a certain place and that others could be yelling and pushing a different time and possibly a different place?

This is FSU. We didn't fall off the turnip truck. At least not all of us.
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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53,184
Rutabaga. :shuffle:

I do think people tend to glorify large protest movements when they happen against regimes that are not well regarded. Usually there is a lot more to the story. I haven't followed the Hong Kong situation much but am interested in more analysis of what is happening.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
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29,854
You may not believe me but what you see from your media are not what's happening in HK, see the following clips for example:

https://www.facebook.com/100001356931830/posts/2344610858927456?s=100012038170133&sfns=xmwa

https://www.facebook.com/fans.hkgolden/videos/404233850450077/UzpfSTU2OTM1OTEwNjgxNDY1NDo3NDkyMDE3Njg4MzAzODY/?s=545980826&sfns=mo

(I hope I inserted the links correctly)
Um, it is happening as there is video of it. But large protests are often messy and meant to cause trouble. So both things can be true as well as anything fitting in-between. They wouldn't be effective if they did not disrupt people's lives and with that some times bad things can happen as well when people are fighting for a cause they believe in.
 

VGThuy

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29,854
We’re watching the Hong Kong protests closely and my husband and I think the whole desperate attempt by the Chinese government to paint the protests a certain way to garner sympathy in the west is incredibly interesting to watch, especially to see how many people actually fall for it. It’s something worth studying. It’s like seeing classic propaganda strategies at work.

Many believe CCTV and other Chinese media available in the west have hired bots to try to promote anti-Hong Kong protest sentiment but it’s obvious when people respond to those bots and it seems like the bots malfunction when trying to respond back, even taking into account language issues. There’s also the fact that many of those sites trying to promote anti-Hong Kong protest sentiment are banned in China making people wonder how they are even posting anyway, or at least pointing out the irony of them trying to argue China is free when they have to use a VPN to access Twitter.

Anyway, I bet most mainland Chinese don’t really have any idea what’s going on nor would they be able to actually get an unbiased account of it to form an informed opinion. And even if they supported Hong Kong, they wouldn’t say so out loud. The funniest tool was this horrific rap that came out in English by some Chinese “rapper” disparaging the protests but it was super cheesy and weak. It’s like is that what they think appeals to western audiences? Whoever is in charge of the PR for this is doing a bad job. It’s like they studied what Americans and westerners like but don’t really understand why certain tools and messages are powerful. To me this is the biggest and most offensive example:


CCTV took the famous anti-Nazi poem about how they first came for the socialists and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a socialist, and then they came for the trade unionists and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist, and then they came for the Jews and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t one, then they came for me and nobody was left to speak up for me and tried to equate the Hong Kong protestors with Nazis. Not only is that a false equivalency, but the attempt to try to get western sympathy by appealing to western sentiments is so freaking transparent that it would be hilarious if it wasn’t so offensive.

I mean really. Seeing China flail in this way is hilarious but it does make me afraid about when they do have deep propaganda that does work.
 

misskarne

Handy Emergency Backup Mode
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18,026
Perhaps it's just the circles I move in but it seems to me that in Australia there aren't many falling for China's tactics. Support for Hong Kong comes from both left and right.

Of course, the fact that fake Chinese Police cars have been found in both Perth and Adelaide probably has something to do with it.

We were discussingthis in the lunch room at work the other day and the chief concern that came up was how this ends. Most of us agreed that it seems likely this would be the Tienamen Square of our time.
 

Vagabond

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Italians prime minister has announced that he will resign. I'm not sure why he's resigning even though he thinks Salvini's actions are irresponsible and he's putting his own interest over the interests of the country but he's a politician, so... https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/20/europe/italy-prime-minister-giuseppe-conte-intl/index.html?adkey=bn
By resigning, he circumvented Salvini's plans to bring a no-confidence vote and, hence, no immediate need for an election. There can be an interim government of technocrats or perhaps a new coalition instead.
 

ballettmaus

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12,130
By resigning, he circumvented Salvini's plans to bring a no-confidence vote and, hence, no immediate need for an election. There can be an interim government of technocrats or perhaps a new coalition instead.
Last I heard, the no-confidence vote was called off because there was not enough support for it. I don't know what steps it would involve in Italy, but I think that if you have someone in the government who you think is abusing it, you should throw him out.
 

skatingguy

Golden Team
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5,425
Perhaps it's just the circles I move in but it seems to me that in Australia there aren't many falling for China's tactics. Support for Hong Kong comes from both left and right.

Of course, the fact that fake Chinese Police cars have been found in both Perth and Adelaide probably has something to do with it.

We were discussingthis in the lunch room at work the other day and the chief concern that came up was how this ends. Most of us agreed that it seems likely this would be the Tienamen Square of our time.
The clips of Australians at the Hong Kong weren't shining examples for your country, so it's good to hear that support for the protesters is wide spread.
 

MacMadame

Cat Lady-in-Training
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29,416
I've been reading about the protests and found these two interesting articles. One says that Xi is in a position to weaken America with how China responds but it needs "soft power" skill.... which it seems like maybe he hasn't got? Because so far all his dealings with the US and Hong Kong he's used hard power tactics.


And Marc Thiessen seems to think Trump is one in power here and he can get Xi to back down in Hong Kong but of course, this requires Trump to be thoughtful and strategic, so personally I am not hopeful it will happen:

 

Vagabond

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Isn't that the same everywhere you go? (look at the US)
Japan's national identity is bound tightly with its ethnic and cultural identity in ways that certainly aren't true in countries such as the U.S., which was founded by immigrants and was quite diverse (even as to its white population) from the beginning. Although things have loosened recently, foreigners of Japanese ancestry and even Japanese people born in Japan but who grew up elsewhere can find themselves unwelcome.
 

jlai

Title-less
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12,182
Japan's national identity is bound tightly with its ethnic and cultural identity in ways that certainly aren't true in countries such as the U.S., which was founded by immigrants and was quite diverse (even as to its white population) from the beginning. Although things have loosened recently, foreigners of Japanese ancestry and even Japanese people born in Japan but who grew up elsewhere can find themselves unwelcome.
I'm aware of that, but lately US hasn't exactly welcomed immigrants either, hence my comment.
 

Vagabond

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I'm aware of that, but lately US hasn't exactly welcomed immigrants either, hence my comment.
You are drawing a false equivalency to the point of disingenuity and conflating the United States government with the American people. According to this poll from December 2015, for example:
Americans overall are more likely to say that newcomers from other countries strengthen American society (50%) than they are to believe that they represent a threat to American customs and values (34%). Sixteen percent affirm or reject both statements, or offer no opinion.
I challenge you to find a survey showing comparable results among people in Japan.
 

jlai

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12,182
You know what, forget it. I am trying to find a way to show interest in your topic and all you do is challenge everything. Enjoy your conversation on your own. Bye
 

ballettmaus

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The Five Star Movement and Democratic Party have reached a coalition agreement in Italy. President Mattarella is expected to give a mandate to Conte to form the coalition but the parties will still have to come to an agreement over cabinet posts. Keeping my fingers crossed that they can keep it together though. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/italian-premier-giuseppe-conte-wins-backing-to-form-a-new-government--this-time-without-the-far-right/2019/08/28/39d64888-c9b5-11e9-9615-8f1a32962e04_story.html
 

ballettmaus

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Wrong! The US loves legal immigrants. Trump has dramatically expanded visas for skilled immigrants.
Never mind that he's rallying against pretty much every other immigrant, legal or not, and those were the only immigrants he'd admit if he had his way.
 

Vagabond

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Last I heard, the no-confidence vote was called off because there was not enough support for it. I don't know what steps it would involve in Italy, but I think that if you have someone in the government who you think is abusing it, you should throw him out.
If by "you" you mean a junior coalition partner, what may happen is that you get thrown out. And that is what has happened.

 

ballettmaus

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12,130
If by "you" you mean a junior coalition partner, what may happen is that you get thrown out. And that is what has happened.
The "you" was meant for Salvini but yes, I posted a link with regards to the new coalition a few posts before this one. But it could easily have gone sideways and it still can as the two parties are not exactly best buddies and still have to form the government which includes agreeing on cabinet members.
The only thing that gives me comfort is that they seem to know what's at stake and that keeping the right-wing out of the government seems to be a shared goal.

If they do manage a new coaltion, I'm curious to see what will happen to the investigation into Salvini.
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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53,184
This article isn't exactly "news from elsewhere" but it is largely about Bosnia, Serbia, and connections to the far right globally.

It struck me particularly because I read a column yesterday in the NY Times by Ross Douthat in which he stated that ethnonationalism is not only not white nationalism (or racism) but that it is one of the things which illustrate "what a healthy conservatism would look like if the racist strain were quarantined, and which conservative ideas that get swept up in condemnations of Trumpism and white identity politics are actually sensible, serious and true."

This is what ethnonationalism is: FROM EL PASO TO SARAJEVO--How White Nationalists Have Been Inspired by the Genocide of Muslims in Bosnia (The Intercept)

In order to understand the ideology of the emerging far right — obsessed with demographics and starry-eyed over the Bosnian genocide — it’s important to look at what actually happened in Bosnia. The grim success of the genocide in cleansing much of Bosnia should give a hint as to why it has become an inspiration. Around 100,000 people are believed to have been killed during the Bosnian war. The majority of them were Muslims. The cleansing of places like Višegrad, Foca, Srebrenica, Prijedor, and Zvornik was not a war between two equal and opposing forces. It was a campaign of murder and cruelty against a defenseless people, waged in the name of demographics and ethnic purity. It mixed equal parts racism and misogyny. The level of sexual violence against Bosnian Muslim women was so targeted and systematic — educated women were singled out for the worst treatment — that it led to rape being recognized for the first time as a weapon of war under international law.
 

Japanfan

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21,672
Good news about girls in Malawi. But there is still plenty in the article to make one :(

 

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