Philip Hersh - U.S., Canada FS federation presidents should step away from judging

Amantide

Amantide

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"Allowing presidents of U.S. & Canadian figure skating federations to be judges creates ethically indefensible conflict of interest. They should step away. " by Philip Hersh

PCS scores are the easiest to manipulate because they are dramatically subjective. Was Caron pushing the Canadian couple at NHK? Was Auxier trying to show his impartiality with the scores for the U.S. team at the U.S. Classic? No matter if neither had such an intention, the position each has in a national federation inevitably - and unnecessarily - prompts such questions.
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I think the part in bold is a very good question and valid observation too. You could harm the skaters because you're trying to act impartial, and that ain't good either.
 
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Coquelicot14 said:
How is this allowed? I am not a fan of Hersh, but this is a very valid point. Another question to consider, is how does this effect the other judges, technical controllers when you have a president of a national federation on the panel?
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That's the difficult part actually, cause being from Canada, USA, Russia etc. would be just like another judge from the same country. Hardly any of them are impartial tbh. The problem is when you have a certain position.

By the way, can any of them be a tech. controller? That would be a major problem cause if the 3 members of the tech panel are not in agreement on a call, the majority wins (2 out of 3).
 
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Coquelicot14 said:
I could understand if this was a president of a small federation with limited resources, but these are major players, with major power, there are many other judges to choose from...
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This is the aspect (in bold) that has always confused me the most - like there must be some rule where countries with multiple entries in the event aren't allowed a judge on the panel (just brainstorming an example).

Look at the men's event at Internationaux de France over the weekend - all 9 judges represented the 9 countries of the 11 men competing. That was...strange.
 
Seerek said:
Look at the men's event at Internationaux de France over the weekend - all 9 judges represented the 9 countries of the 11 men competing. That was...strange.
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That reminded me of how it used to be when the judging panels at Worlds and Europeans were drawn from the previous year's ten highest-finishing federations, with one federation out of those ten randomly selected to be an alternate instead of a panelist.
 
Phil is really working hard casting a cloud over a particular dance team. I know a much more intriguing story he should cover if he weren't so obvious with his agenda. ( this is more directed towards him as I'm guessing from his latest story he is reading this board)
 
List of Referees, Judges, Technical Controllers, Technical Specialists, Data & Replay Operators season 2017/18 for Single & Pair Skating, Ice Dance and Synchronized Skating: http://www.isu.org/inside-single-pa...ications-fs/12127-isu-communication-2111/file
(The pools really aren't that large and it's not uncommon for officials in the skating community to be related to each other through marriage or across family generations.)

From the 2017-18 GP Announcement: http://www.isu.org/docman-documents...33-gp-general-announcement-2017-18-final/file

Re. Grand Prix series:
7.2 ISU Appointed Officials The ISU President will appoint all Officials (Referees, Technical Controllers, Technical Specialists, Assistant Technical Specialists, Data & Replay Operators, and OAC members who serve from home) for each individual event and the Final in accordance with the ISU Regulations 2016. In line with Article 37, paragraph 3 of the ISU Constitution, the ISU Council will also assign an ISU Representative to each individual ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating event.

The ISU Secretariat will inform the Organizing ISU Member of the names of the Officials and ISU Representatives assigned to their events. No changes will be accepted unless confirmed by the ISU Secretariat.

7.3 Panel of Judges The panel of Judges in each individual event of the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating will consist of 9 Judges of different ISU Members in each discipline if possible, but not less than 7 Judges. Only International or ISU Judges are eligible to serve in the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating events. Each Judge may participate in no more than two ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating events plus the ISU Grand Prix of Skating Final. The Organizing ISU Members will invite the Judges based on a procedure agreed with the ISU.

Re. Grand Prix Final:

9.5 ISU Appointed Officials
The ISU President will appoint all Officials (Referees, Technical Controllers, Technical Specialists, Assistant Technical Specialists, Data/Replay Operators, and OAC members who serve from home) for the Final in accordance with the ISU Regulations 2016. All Officials must have the qualification for ISU Championships. In line with Article 37, paragraph 3 of the ISU Constitution, the ISU Council will also assign an ISU Representative to the Final.

The ISU Secretariat will inform the Organizing Committee of the names of the Officials and ISU Representative assigned to the Final. No changes will be accepted unless confirmed by the ISU Secretariat.

9.6 Panel of Judges
The panel of Judges will consist of 9 Judges of different ISU Members in each discipline, if possible, but not less than 7 Judges. Judges must have the qualification of “ISU Judge”. The invitations to the Judges will be issued by the ISU Secretariat.

No Judge may serve in more than two disciplines of the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final and two disciplines of the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final 2017/18 each.

The composition of the panels of Judges in each category will be made in accordance with the following procedure:
a) first priority will be given to the participating ISU Members in the Senior Final;
b) second priority will be given to the participating ISU Members in the Junior Final;
c) third priority, if necessary, will be given to the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating organizing ISU Members of individual ISU Grand Prix events (Senior);
d) fourth priority, if necessary, will be given to the ISU Members with Judges present at the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final (Junior and Senior), but not mentioned under a) and b);
e) fifth priority, if necessary, will be given to the Organizing ISU Member of the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final and the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final;
f) sixth priority, if necessary, will be given to the ISU Members with Skaters/Couples qualified as alternates in the Senior Final;
g) seventh priority, if necessary, will be given to the ISU Members with Skaters/Couples qualified as alternates in the Junior Final;
h) eighth priority, if necessary, will be given to the ISU Members with Skaters/Couples not qualified for the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final, with priority to the discipline concerned, starting from that Skater/Couple with the highest total amount of points but not being alternate for the final.

The invitations to the Judges will be issued by the ISU Secretariat immediately following the last event of the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating 2017/18 (Skate America).
The respective ISU Members entitled to nominate a Judge must submit the name of the Judge(s) not later than November 30, 2017.
The selection of Judges will be made by the respective ISU Member. The ISU Members are responsible for providing all selected and stand-by Judges with the appropriate travel documents in time.
 
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marbri said:
Phil is really working hard casting a cloud over a particular dance team. I know a much more intriguing story he should cover if he weren't so obvious with his agenda. ( this is more directed towards him as I'm guessing from his latest story he is reading this board)
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He sure is. Why does he care so much about Virtue and Moir? It’s not like Davis and White are in the competition. ;)

Btw, his Tessa Virtue jewelry story had me laughing. The fact that some American female judge or skater took the time to take a photo of the back of Virtue’s earring (most probably from the privacy of her Regina hotel room), email it to him, and then he wrote a whole article about it is....desperate and pathetic. Why the agenda?
 
Sylvia said:
(The pools really aren't that large and it's not uncommon for officials in the skating community to be related to each other through marriage or across family generations.)
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True that. But they were not larger in Sochi either and look how everybody went nuts. :slinkaway And she was the wife, not even the president.

Seerek said:
Look at the men's event at Internationaux de France over the weekend - all 9 judges represented the 9 countries of the 11 men competing. That was...strange.
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That's indeed strange. Didn't notice that.
 
marbri said:
Phil is really working hard casting a cloud over a particular dance team. I know a much more intriguing story he should cover if he weren't so obvious with his agenda. ( this is more directed towards him as I'm guessing from his latest story he is reading this board)
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Yup, he sure is.
 
Rafter said:
Btw, his Tessa Virtue jewelry story had me laughing. The fact that some American female judge or skater took the time to take a photo of the back of Virtue’s earring (most probably from the privacy of her Regina hotel room), email it to him, and then he wrote a whole article about it is....desperate and pathetic. Why the agenda?
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A couple of days after his blog post about the earrings, Kaitlin Hawayek posted a pic of herself wearing the earrings on Instagram and saying how much she loved them. Giggle. And thank you for that Kaitlin!
 
I'm pretty sure, at least in the Grand Prix series, there is an effort to get at least one judge for every participating nation on the panel in each discipline. The others are then invited by the organizing federation (or at least were in the past). There was some talk about this a few years ago because Russia tended to fill the extra spots with judges from other former Soviet nations at their Grand Prix, and I'm sure other Federations chose judges that they felt would side more with their skaters.
 
DreamsofBliss said:
So the people saying this is just about some agenda they perceive against VM don't have a problem with the issue at hand?
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Issue is with his selective reporting that makes it reek of some agenda. It's as if he is being fed specific topics to write about because if he himself were doing any general probing into the issue there are a few things out there that are obvious topics.
 
There are coaches on technical panels in competitions their skaters are in.
There are judges and technical panel members that are handing out levels and GOE/PCS to teams they once mentored and/or worked for handing out 10´s and +3+s like they are candy.
There are judges who form entourages for certain skaters following them to competitions they are NOT working at lobbying for them.
There are judges who are social media friends with skaters and send them private messages.
There are judges who were team leaders for countries and friends of skaters and their families judging them at events handing them candy and their main competitors the lowest scores on the panel.

I could go on but I don't have the time. So I the eff care when all the above are glossed over yet the only bones he chooses to pick at have a common theme. He doesn't even wait for answers from ISU (and frankly he could get those answers from the USFS or the official who didn't like Tessa's earring :P).
 
But - but - but - Alla Shekhovtsova was married to the RFSF VP! Married, I tell you! She clearly did his bidding as a humble obedient wife and she was married to him, I tell you! :drama:

Having actual presidents and vice presidents on panels completely pales into insignificance! Alla was married to the official, I tell you! :drama::drama::drama:
 
Why is this thread turning into some strange anti-V/M conspiracy theory?

Of course, there are other relationships in skating that could be seen as conflicts of interest. However--the federation presidents are obviously among the biggest players in the sport. So the decisions they make, and the assignments they take, are important, both symbolically and in terms of setting the tone for what happens below them. I think looking at this issue with an initial concentration on the presidents' role is not unreasonable.
 
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marbri said:
There are coaches on technical panels in competitions their skaters are in.
There are judges and technical panel members that are handing out levels and GOE/PCS to teams they once mentored and/or worked for handing out 10´s and +3+s like they are candy.
There are judges who form entourages for certain skaters following them to competitions they are NOT working at lobbying for them.
There are judges who are social media friends with skaters and send them private messages.
There are judges who were team leaders for countries and friends of skaters and their families judging them at events handing them candy and their main competitors the lowest scores on the panel.

I could go on but I don't have the time. So I the eff care when all the above are glossed over yet the only bones he chooses to pick at have a common theme. He doesn't even wait for answers from ISU (and frankly he could get those answers from the USFS or the official who didn't like Tessa's earring :p).
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Amen. I don't think skating federation presidents should be on technical or judging panels, but none of the other situations outlined by Marbri should be going on either. For example, Sergei Ponomarenko shouldn't be active as a technical specialist or controller right now. His son is one of the top junior competitors right now and his son's coach has multiple teams competing for multiple countries on the senior international level.

The skating fed presidents are the low-hanging fruit on this tree. Multiple other questionable relationships between those serving to hand out scores and the skaters have been brought up here recently, yet in his piece, Hersh didn't go on to talk about these problems either. At the very least, the Ponomarenko situation is an easy gimme in terms of judging conflicts of interest.

It's that this piece seems to selectively focus on trying to discredit v/m's marks and comes on the heels of another piece trying to make it appear as if Skate Canada is trying to play dirty for v/m that is the problem. Hersch is not presenting full details or disclosing all aspects of either situation that's the problem.
 
Coquelicot14 said:
Not sure why people assume this article is V&M related... he is talking about both Canadian AND US fed presidents. :confused:
Also, everything else is analyzed to death, why shouldn't this be looked into. They aren't exempt.
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Uh, maybe because he names Virtue & Moir in the article and the marks the Canadian president gave them at SC.
 
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This is old news anyway, all of this has been happening for years in skating. Benoit Lavoie used to be the president of Skate Canada and when he was the pres he was judging tons of events where Canadian skaters were competing.

Why wasn’t Phil writing about this then?
 
Rafter said:
Uh, maybe because he names Virtue & Moir in the article and the makes the Canadian president gave them at SC.
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So what? It's an example.
Also, just because it has been done for some time, doesn't make it ok. President is too high of a position to be a judge.
It's like the President NHL beeing a referee at Olympics .... I am not a huge hockey fan, but I certainly hope it's not happening.
 
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