News & Experiences continued

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
16,198
Ok. I made assumptions. Changed post

Very sorry

Seriously, no need to be sorry at all. (Though I appreciate the gesture of kindness.)

My point is that you can't speak for all old people or even most of them

Of course I can't, but I can safely say that a sizable number of people - old and otherwise - don't want to be "protected."

And how exactly do you proposed to do that? This is a communicable disease.

For which there is a vaccine and treatment....

She wears a mask most of the time but can't while eating and drink

I disagree with your example - this is her responsibility, not his. He didn't kill anyone, and she doesn't want to be protected that badly if she's eating and drinking with others.

So she isn't some wasteful drag on society who is going to die in 5 years like you seem to think all old people are.

I don't think this at all. At the same time, mortality tables tell us that people her age have relatively high likelihood of dying in the next five years. Let her live those years how she chooses.

Louis' attitude has been pretty much the same since day one and hasn't shifted one way or another based on his case that I can see.

I'm thankful I had breakthrough C19. Contrary to popular belief, I don't want to kill old people. I have zero worries seeing my dad and other elderly relatives with a combination of vaccine + natural antibodies. I'm happy to take one for the team.

I took all kinds of risks (knowingly, and calculated) while unvaccinated, and then I got C19 after being vaccinated and during a week where I did nothing except work from home, go running in the park, and go to a supermarket in a mask. So I think there's a certain level of randomness to C19, as anything in life, and worrying about it too much is futile.

I don't find it difficult at all to just imagine if I still had my parents and I could never, ever live with myself if I passed along ********* to them.

I thought like that, and instead have to live with myself for not seeing relatives before they passed (not of C19).

I'm sorry about your father; it's never easy no matter the circumstances.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,306
WHO recommends groundbreaking malaria vaccine for children at risk



A ‘Historic Event’: First Malaria Vaccine Approved by W.H.O.​

 

Japanfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
24,805
Not enough :rolleyes: for this.
And the single best thing we can do to help the shortage is to do away with vaccine requirements :shuffle:. As of July, 27 percent of U.S. healthcare workers weren't vaccinated (still being referenced by NPR as of two weeks ago); not sure if anyone has a more current number.

Seriously? Would you want yourself or a loved one in hospital to be treated by a healthcare worker who might be carrying a deadly and highly transmissable disease?

Somehow I don't think so.

I also refuse to live in fear that there won't be a doctor if I get sick. If that's the case, so be it. Death is a certainty in life; C19 deaths are far less bad than some others I've seen (e.g., various cancers, dementia); and my choice in life is to maximize experiences v. years lived.
Death is a certainty yes, but what about deaths that are avoidable? Such as deaths by *****.

Would you just jump off a mountain without a parachute? Head into incoming traffic when you are not going the right way?
Pretty consistently, the old people in my life want to live their final years seeing their family, not wearing masks, and enjoying whatever time they have left without restrictions. They know the risks and are willing to accept them. I don’t think we should deny people liberty and pursuit of happiness because some highly paid doctors are feeling burned out, or because other people who can all get vaccinated and/or wear masks and/or protect themselves in any number of ways feel uneasy.

I’m all about protecting those who want to be protected, but we need to stop protecting those who don’t want our protection.

And I'm sure there are many, many older folks who want to takes precautions against ** because they want more years to live - not to have their lives cut short by , nor to be in an ICU on a ventilator, dying alone. I might understand if a person was dying, but doubt that most dying people would want to risk passing on * to others, and cutting their lives short. And again, dying alone in an ICU on a ventilator is not a good way to go.

I'm sure I've said this before, but protecting oneself against ***** is also about protecting others. I am okay with vaccine mandates because they protect people. Just like I'm okay with speed limits.

When parents have kids with various contagious diseases, do you approve of them sending their kids to school?

And how do feel about the many restrictions that are in place for the welfare of society, like speed limits, requirements that people don't drink and drive beyond the allowable limit, punishments for hurting others?

As a dog owner, the analogy that comes to mind for your view is this:

A person with a dangerous dog does not believe in muzzling her/his dog, and thinks it is other dog's owners responsibility to just stay away from her/his dog. If the dangerous dog hurts another dog, it is just one of things that happen.

That is how ludicrous your view is to me.

To a certain extent people do have responsibility to the collective. Individual rights do not always trump collective rights.
 
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FGRSK8

Toad whisperer.....
Messages
20,078
On the local news it was reported that 44% of people surveyed said they will not get the flu shot.

What the F#ck is up with this. This is beyond stupid as they are already warning that this could be a bad flu season.

Our toads are smarter than these people…..🐸🐸
 

Judy

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,371
WHO recommends groundbreaking malaria vaccine for children at risk



A ‘Historic Event’: First Malaria Vaccine Approved by W.H.O.​

That is awesome. I had seen a headline about that.
 

marbri

Hey, Kool-Aid!
Messages
14,218
Sweden has just stopped using Moderna for under 30 year olds and Denmark has stopped it for under 18 year old. Those age groups will only get Pfizer.

They say for younger people there's a bit more serious side effects (like myocarditis) than with Pfizer.
Iceland has just paused using this as well. I saw on the news a few nights ago that about 12 people (give or take) who originally got Janssen and were given a Mrna booster got myocarditis. They didn't say at the time what they had received but putting two and two together here my scales tip towards Moderna. They say they made the decision based on the actions of the other Nordic countries and the fact they have plenty of Pfizer supply.
 

sk8pics

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,033
I was catching up with a friend on the phone today and we were talking about work and getting together and I said, “I assume you’re vaccinated…”. He said he and his wife were NOT vaccinated. :eek: They are trying to get pregnant and doing IVF, and were worried about “fertility problems” and anyway they both had YNW so they have some antibodies. I was just:eek::eek:. I read recently that they are now recommending more strongly that pregnant people get vaccinated rather than waiting. She is not pregnant yet and they’ve been trying for at least the last several months. They also have a 3 year old with special needs. I really hope they don’t get sick again.:( She is working at home but he is not.

I did not argue with him (though it was tempting :lol: ) but just said they should discuss it with their doctors and he said they had and “it’s the right decision for us.” :wall::wall:
 
Messages
8,731
I was catching up with a friend on the phone today and we were talking about work and getting together and I said, “I assume you’re vaccinated…”. He said he and his wife were NOT vaccinated. :eek: They are trying to get pregnant and doing IVF, and were worried about “fertility problems” and anyway they both had YNW so they have some antibodies. I was just:eek::eek:. I read recently that they are now recommending more strongly that pregnant people get vaccinated rather than waiting. She is not pregnant yet and they’ve been trying for at least the last several months. They also have a 3 year old with special needs. I really hope they don’t get sick again.:( She is working at home but he is not.

I did not argue with him (though it was tempting :lol: ) but just said they should discuss it with their doctors and he said they had and “it’s the right decision for us.” :wall::wall:
We have a friend that won’t get vaccinated because she’s trying to have a baby. That particular thread of disinformation is very pervasive. I get it, it’s a sensitive time of life, and even people that don’t generally care about taking medications and what they put in their bodies, are very careful when they’re pregnant or trying to conceive. Our friend also has had three miscarriages this year and she understandably isn’t dealing with it very well so I don’t say anything. I’ll let her doctors do that work. She works at an elementary school though and I worry about her.
 

missing

Well-Known To Whom She Wonders
Messages
4,563
This morning's NY Times email is cheerful and reassuring and says we shouldn't try to predict stuff because it's like predicting sports; sometimes you're right and a lot of times you aren't and either way it's dependent on things you can't predict.

Ha! says I (not about sports). It's plain and simple why things are better in the US today than people worried they might be. This summer Delta made its way through highly populated red states. Now it's making its way through less* populated red states. It will (if it isn't already) make its way through the red counties of blue states, but since they are not highly populated, they won't show up that much in national numbers. Things will take a turn for the worse Thanksgiving-New Year's but won't be as bad as last year because of vaccines and red state/counties previous exposure.

I can now win the Nobel Prize for Predictions.

But if you want to read what the New York Times (sweet naive newspaper) says, here it is:

In the final weeks of this summer, with *********-19 cases soaring and the rituals of autumn about to resume, many people assumed that the ********* was on the verge of getting even worse.​
Children were returning to classrooms five days a week. Broadway was reopening, and movie fans were heading to theaters again. In football stadiums across the country, fans were crowding together, usually unmasked, to cheer, sing and drink.​
Given all of this — and the Delta variant — public discussion had a decidedly grim tone as the summer wound down. “It may only get worse,” read a Politico headline. “The new school year is already a disaster,” Business Insider reported.​
The Washington Post cited an estimate that daily caseloads in the U.S. could reach 300,000 in August, higher than ever before. An expert quoted in The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette suggested the number could be higher yet. In The New York Times, an epidemiologist predicted that cases would rise in September because children were going back to school.​
And what actually happened? Cases plunged.​
The best measure of U.S. cases (a seven-day average, adjusted for holiday anomalies) peaked around 166,000 on Sept. 1 — the very day that seemed to augur a new surge. The number of new daily cases has since fallen almost 40 percent. Hospitalizations are down about 30 percent. Deaths, which typically change direction a few weeks after cases, have declined 13 percent since Sept. 20.​
To be fair, forecasting a ********* is inherently difficult. Virtually all of us, expert and not, have at times been surprised by ********* and incorrect about what was likely to happen next. It’s unavoidable.​
But there is a pattern to some of the recent mistakes, and understanding it can help us avoid repeating them.​

Clutch chokers​

Let’s start by recalling a near-universal human trait: People are attracted to stories with heroes and villains. In these stories, the character flaws of the villains bring them down, allowing the decency of the heroes to triumph. The stories create a clear relationship between cause and effect. They make sense.​
Books, television shows and movies are full of such stories. But for the purposes of understanding *********, another form of mass entertainment — sports — is more useful.​
Unlike novels or movies, sporting events involve true uncertainty. They are not part of a fictional world, with an author’s predetermined ending. And as is the case with more important subjects, like a *********, sports are subject to a lot of predictions. For these reasons, social scientists, including Nobel laureates, sometimes study sports to learn lessons about the human mind.​
If you turn on almost any sporting event, you will hear tales of heroes and villains. Sports broadcasters often use moralistic language — with concepts like “clutch” and “choke” — to explain outcomes. The broadcasters turn games into “referenda on character,” as Joe Sheehan, who writes an excellent baseball newsletter, has put it. The athletes with strong character win, and the weak lose.​
But anybody who watches sports for long enough will notice that these morality plays do not age well. Many athletes or coaches whom broadcasters long described as chokers (Clayton Kershaw, Andy Reid, Phil Mickelson, Alex Rodriguez, John Elway, Jana Novotná, Hakeem Olajuwon, Dan Jansen and many more) eventually won championships with clutch performances.​
They did not have character flaws that prevented them from winning. They had been unlucky, or they had run into better competition. Until they didn’t.​
The real world often does not lend itself to moralistic fables.​

Vaccines and humility​

In the case of *********, the fable we tell ourselves is that our day-to-day behavior dictates the course of the *********. When we are good — by staying socially distant and wearing our masks — cases are supposed to fall. When we are bad — by eating in restaurants, hanging out with friends and going to a theater or football game — cases are supposed to rise.​
The idea is especially alluring to anybody making an effort to be careful and feeling frustrated that so many other Americans seem blasé. After all, the ********* fable does have an some truth to it. Social distancing and masking do reduce the spread of the *****. They just are not as powerful as people often imagine.​
The main determinants of *********’s spread (other than vaccines, which are extremely effective) remain mysterious. Some activities that seem dangerous, like in-person school or crowded outdoor gatherings, may not always be. As unsatisfying as it is, we do not know why cases have recently plunged. The decline is consistent with the fact that ********* surges often last for about two months before receding, but that’s merely a description of the data, not a causal explanation.​
“We still are really in the cave ages in terms of understanding how viruses emerge, how they spread, how they start and stop, why they do what they do,” Michael Osterholm, an epidemiologist at the University of Minnesota, has told me.​
In coming weeks and months, it is possible that the ***** will surge again, maybe because of a new variant or because vaccine immunity will wane. It is also possible that the population has built up enough immunity — from both vaccines and previous infections — that Delta will have been the last major wave.​
We don’t know, and we do not have to pretend otherwise. We do not have to treat ********* as a facile referendum on virtue.​
When caseloads are high, it makes sense to take precautions, even if we can’t be sure how much they matter. When caseloads are lower, it makes sense to take fewer, because almost every precaution has a cost. Other than that, the best we can do is get vaccinated and, as Osterholm says, stay humble.​

*See how nice I am? I didn't write highly populated red states/lowly populated red states. I am now entitled to the Nobel Prize for Niceness also.
 

KCC

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,191
Yesterday, I talked to a friend in Cincinnati whose husband just had prostate surgery - what an ordeal. Had some minor complications and needed to spend the night in the hospital. He was supposed to get up to move around every few hours to help the recovery process, but there were no IV poles on wheels that he could use (extra sanitization processes and then no staffing to help walk with him. With shortened visiting hours for family, they kicked out my friend who was the only person available to help her husband. The pharmacy was too backed up to get him his post-op medications, so my friend tracked down a doctor and explained the situation - fortunately, he found some meds for her husband. The situation is even worse here in Idaho, but in general, it is a good time to play it safe and stay out of hospitals.
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
16,198
We have a friend that won’t get vaccinated because she’s trying to have a baby. That particular thread of disinformation is very pervasive.

It's not disinformation. Hundreds of thousands of women have reported changes to their menstrual cycle after vaccination. I know many personally. This is one of those areas that vaccine proponents (of which I am one) should acknowledge, rather than brush off. Just because there isn't a formal scientific study proving cause and effect yet doesn't mean there isn't one. This not anecdotal evidence or "some person on the internet said it." This is based on widespread reporting, and it's being studied right now. Some countries are providing menstrual irregularity as a potential side effect in their official vaccination materials.

I understand your friend's hesitancy to get vaccinated (though if I were in her shoes, I would). I am less convinced about her husband's.

In the case of *********, the fable we tell ourselves is that our day-to-day behavior dictates the course of the *********. When we are good — by staying socially distant and wearing our masks — cases are supposed to fall. When we are bad — by eating in restaurants, hanging out with friends and going to a theater or football game — cases are supposed to rise.

The idea is especially alluring to anybody making an effort to be careful [...] They just are not as powerful as people often imagine.

We don’t know, and we do not have to pretend otherwise. We do not have to treat ********* as a facile referendum on virtue.

Beyond shocked to see the NYTimes acknowledging that much of C19 policy is a "fable," and that we shouldn't be treating C19 as a referendum on virtue. I have hope for the world today.
 

sk8pics

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,033
We have a friend that won’t get vaccinated because she’s trying to have a baby. That particular thread of disinformation is very pervasive. I get it, it’s a sensitive time of life, and even people that don’t generally care about taking medications and what they put in their bodies, are very careful when they’re pregnant or trying to conceive. Our friend also has had three miscarriages this year and she understandably isn’t dealing with it very well so I don’t say anything. I’ll let her doctors do that work. She works at an elementary school though and I worry about her.
Yeah, I worry about my friends, too. I can’t understand why he won’t get vaccinated, that’s the part that really makes no sense to me especially since he is working outside the home. His mother is a crazy conspiracy nut, which he acknowledged many times, but I wonder if hearing her say enough things just put some doubt into his mind. They were having trouble conceiving this time around, before vaccines were available. And I do think earlier in the year the doctors around here were telling their pregnant patients they couldn’t make the decision for them about whether to get vaccinated; I have one friend who got vaccinated before she left the hospital with her newborn baby. She, too, did IVF. But it seems to me the recommendations have changed recently. I only hope they don’t get sick, and especially their son.

Sigh.
 

marbri

Hey, Kool-Aid!
Messages
14,218
FWIW regarding menstruation and vaccination. Yesterday they published a report on a review that started early August of 400 reports of side effects due to vaccination. Of the 400 they chose 43 cases they wanted to review further. Of the 43 they determined 7 cases had a possible link to vaccination and recommended they undergo further examination by a doctor to rule out other known causes for these symptoms.

You should be able to choose to view these in english:

The first article is the announcement/reasoning for review:

This one their conclusions:

So by my math, on this small sample, it would seem we can toss out 98% of these "hundreds of thousands" ;)

I mean my daughter was told by many her first period post vaccine would be terrible. So she expected it and she would say yes it was. But she never yelled out for a hot water bottle or some Tylenol so whatever. I got a period of 11 months. But that happens and I am just pissed I have to start counting to 12 all over again :( But if either of us were so inclined we could join a fb group adding to the hundreds of thousands adversely affected by the vaccine. 🤷‍♀️
 

Buzz

Socialist Canada
Messages
35,064

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,306
Oregon had 1,580 new cases today and 23 deaths. One was a 32-year-old man with no underlying conditions. There were 12 cases in Wheeler County reported today, which is :eek: because Wheeler County has the lowest population in the state and never has more than 4 cases in a day so this is some kind of outbreak. Hospitalizations were down to 656 today, which is a good drop from yesterday.

I understood people who were pregnant deciding to avoid vaccination early on when there were no clear studies about how it impacted people; but now that there are studies and there is evidence saying that the vaccine protects not only the mother but also the baby + now there is Delta which has been even more deadly to pregnant women and to unborn babies, I definitely no longer understand the decision not to be vaccinated. Plus, it is much more difficult for people to stay safe with society more open. I worry that one of my friends may be avoiding the vaccine out of concerns about fertility. It just seems like such an awful tragedy in the making--with the potential to rob children & families of mothers and babies all at once.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
44,431
Also changes to the menstrual cycle doesn’t mean that you are infertile.

It means your cycle has become different in length or flow or on a different schedule.
But if you are trying to conceive and having trouble, you need to be able to time things. Ovulating regularly is a big help.

Personally, I would get the vaccine anyway if it was me. But I understand why someone might not want to take the chance. Especially if you are paying 15,000 for IVF and successful implantation of the embryo includes the proper timing.
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
16,198
But if you are trying to conceive and having trouble, you need to be able to time things. Ovulating regularly is a big help.

Personally, I would get the vaccine anyway if it was me. But I understand why someone might not want to take the chance. Especially if you are paying 15,000 for IVF and successful implantation of the embryo includes the proper timing.

I'm glad you said it because I was starting to think there was something about the birds and the bees that I didn't quite understand :lol:.

@marbri, based on the translation of the article, it says that there is not a likely connection between miscarriage and C19.
I believe the evidence in the article, though I do not blame people, especially older mothers for whom this may be the only chance, for not wanting to risk the vaccine until their baby is born, especially if they were making the decision a few months ago when there was less evidence. The initial FDA policy left the choice to pregnant women (v. explicitly recommending for pregnant women), which I think was fair.

I think there's plenty of evidence, however (including yours), of changed menstrual cycles, which definitely impacts chances of getting pregnant. If a 35+ year-old woman trying to get pregnant doesn't want to get vaccinated until she conceives and delivers, that's a valid excuse in my book. I was disappointed to see so many people, including other women, cheering the dismissal of Allison Williams (woman sports reporter) on these grounds.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
44,431
I was disappointed to see so many people, including other women, cheering the dismissal of Allison Williams (woman sports reporter) on these grounds.
It's because people are angry and not thinking straight.

I'm surprised she couldn't get a medical exemption though.
 

skategal

Bunny mama
Messages
8,490
But if you are trying to conceive and having trouble, you need to be able to time things. Ovulating regularly is a big help.

Personally, I would get the vaccine anyway if it was me. But I understand why someone might not want to take the chance. Especially if you are paying 15,000 for IVF and successful implantation of the embryo includes the proper timing.
IVF cycles can have your menstrual period induced to start the cycle if it doesn’t show up on its own. I really don’t get the argument about not being vaccinated for doing iVF when the whole cycle is medically controlled from start to finish and meds can and are altered during the process to get the results they are trying to get. No it’s not 100% fool prof but not having a period show up is the least of issues.

I get the ovulation can be earlier or later with a vaccine. But nothing says that this isn’t remedied the following month.

Ovulation sticks will tell you when you are ovulating no matter when the egg shows up.

Plus every Reproductive Endocrinologist will tell you or best chance at pregnancy is to have intercourse every 2nd or 3rd day while trying to conceive to catch the egg.

So we can’t say getting the vaccine causes infertility.

It may mess with your cycle for a month or so like other vaccines can do also which is a pain when you are trying to conceive.

But it’s a big stretch to say it causes infertility.
 

Orm Irian

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,297
We have a friend that won’t get vaccinated because she’s trying to have a baby. That particular thread of disinformation is very pervasive. I get it, it’s a sensitive time of life, and even people that don’t generally care about taking medications and what they put in their bodies, are very careful when they’re pregnant or trying to conceive. Our friend also has had three miscarriages this year and she understandably isn’t dealing with it very well so I don’t say anything. I’ll let her doctors do that work. She works at an elementary school though and I worry about her.
Do you think it might help if someone were to tell her that there's evidence vaccinated mothers pass C-19 antibodies on to their newborns, giving them some protection in their first months of life?
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
44,431
So we can’t say getting the vaccine causes infertility.
I didn't say it caused infertility. I am saying that if you are in the middle of fertility treatment, especially expensive ones, you might not want want to throw another variable into the equation.
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
16,198
My 43-year-old ex-SIL wouldn't get vaccinated while pregnant, and I don't blame her for not taking a chance given that this was a long time coming and most likely her only chance. She was vaccinated before leaving the hospital after giving birth.
 

skategal

Bunny mama
Messages
8,490
I didn't say it caused infertility. I am saying that if you are in the middle of fertility treatment, especially expensive ones, you might not want want to throw another variable into the equation.
I personally would get the vaccine before the fertility treatment cycle started but not in the middle of it.

I’m sure the RE would advise that too. It would make things clearer regarding what is a potential side effect of the vaccine vs what is a potential side effect of the fertility medication.
 

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