News & Experiences continued

OlieRow

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,800
Dropping in to vent... Hospitals all over are swimming in COVID and overflowing with patients due to lack of nursing and support staff causing patients to hold in the ED for hours/days waiting for a bed upstairs. We've been running a solid 6-9+ hour wait for less emergent stuff and seeing patients in hallways (which happened pre-COVID too), the waiting room, anywhere we can stick a chair, etc. Its been a couple of sucky, long weeks and I'm soooooo looking forward to leaving for our family beach trip tomorrow. Of course today I woke up from my post-night shift nap to a call from my mother informing me my sister's boss tested positive this morning. She was at work with my sister (work spaces more than 6ft apart, both in masks, my sister fully vaccinated) when she got the call she was positive. In addition to coming in with a pending test today she apparently worked yesterday after having an inconclusive test........... WTF. :angryfire:angryfire:angryfire

CDC guidelines say she doesn't need to quarantine as she's vaccinated but my 95 yo grandmother is coming so I'm working with a friend who is an infectious disease physician to figure out if we can safely take this work. But seriously, who goes to work with an inconclusive and then pending test when they called out sick 2 days before?!
 

OlieRow

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,800
I don't expect anyone on this board to agree, but:
1) the effects of C19 on children are generally mild
2) every adult in the country has either been vaccinated or had ample opportunity to do so, and the rates of severe illness or death from "breakthrough" infections are very low
3) masks inhibit learning and may delay social development, in addition to being uncomfortable

So why are we asking children to wear masks? We've sacrificed children's education more than enough already. There is no reason for any child to be forced to wear a mask in school if it will inhibit their learning. Let parents decide what's best for their child, and whether the risk of continued educational and developmental delay is worse than the risk of C19.

Kids may have more mild effects but they can spread it for sure. In many places they aren't requiring masks or other distancing measures but also aren't offering a virtual component. Parents don't really get much of a choice there.

I'm definitely having empathy issues at the moment. I'm struggling with all these unvaccinated people who are coming in with C19 feeling like sh!t or needing oxygen. Yea, it sucks but with masks and/or vaccines this is pretty preventable...

Also pretty annoyed that my governor (SC) and many others are doing absolutely nothing while the hospital systems are really struggling. All 5 EDs in our town have been on EMS diversion more often than not the past 2 weeks. Access to care even for non C19 patients is really a mess right now.
 

Miezekatze

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,445
To me it seems (also looking at statistics) there are generally more severe cases among North American children than for example among children in some North or middle European countries. Whatever the reasons for that are, I have no idea.

I think in the UK vaccination rates are much higher than in the US too and that certainly improves the overall situation.
I think even with Boris Johnsons method the UK currently has built up one of the best overall protection against severe cases.

In some countries like Austria or Germany children are tested twice a week (might become even more often in fall), which detects clusters earlier than in countries where that doesn't happen.

So I don't think one can say that what works in one country means one doesn't need masks in other countries at the moment.

In Germany kids in elementary school d dont always have to wear masks when seated at their desk(the last few months they didn't) , but in the mid of waves it helped and I'm sure it will be used again during the 4th wave. Also it can mean that not all kids have to quarantine when there's a case in class and that there's more in person learning due to that. If there's tons of cases in schools and classes end up in isolation all the time, they are obviously not learning in person either.
 

Miezekatze

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,445
@Miezekatze, There’s no widespread testing of school children in the vast majority of the US. Most children are tested only if they are exposed or have symptoms and then only if their parent chooses to do so.
Yeah, that was somehow the point I was trying to make, probably badly worded. :slinkaway

I meant that what Louis said about children can't just be applied to all countries even if there may be a few countries where schools are open without strict mask rules, because rules and vaccination rates and overall situations at schools are so different...

In Austria I think kids will soon be tested up to 3 times a week, one weekly PCR test and 2 antigen tests. So maybe you then can have a bit more relaxed rules in other areas of school (they do use masks too though), but you can't say, that the same rules will work in the US, when there are for example no tests.
 

TOADS

Toad whisperer.....
Messages
20,334
Mask mandates in school? I have no problem with that but they should be issued on town or city level rather than one coming from the state. Our governor is leaving the decision to individual school districts since they have a clearer picture of what is happening in their districts and can adjust mandates and restrictions accordingly.
 

sk8pics

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,730
I sent out a reminder email this afternoon about a meeting 6 of us are having on Monday evening at my house. Not 5’ later one of them called me to say her husband tested positive on Thursday; he was fully vaccinated. The woman who called me got a negative test result on a quick test, and an inconclusive test result for a PCR test. Anyway, the state contacted her and said, not surprisingly, that she does not have to quarantine since she’s fully vaccinated. So then I had to send out another email to see if everyone is still willing to meet in person. We can sit on my back porch. But ugh. Fortunately her husband has only mild symptoms. They were at a wedding the weekend prior and found out afterwards that someone at the wedding had tested positive, which led her husband to get tested because he didn’t feel quite right.

I am hoping I don’t get sick from the Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me taping I went to on Thursday. So far, I feel fine.
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
17,034
People need to stop pretending like masks are completely harmless. In addition to impeding communication, verbal and non-verbal, there are a whole host of side effects. One study of many, with similar findings (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8260829/):

Since wearing the mask became a requirement, parents reported several side-effects in children: 82.4% presented different physical symptoms and 67.0% behavioral changes (Figure 1). The main symptoms attributed to the mask by the parents were headache (49.0%) followed by speaking difficulties (45.1%) and breathing discomfort (28.1%). The main changes in behavior reported by the parents were change in mood (45.2%).

How is anyone supposed to learn with a headache, when they're struggling to speak, or even struggling to breathe?

Who are we trying to protect by telling children that they have to wear a mask in school? The unvaccinated? Sorry, they have ample opportunity to protect themselves by getting vaccinated. The vaccinated, from breakthrough infections? Those infections are few, milder, and less deadly, and do not warrant subjecting 80% of children to side effects, 50% to headaches, and 25% to breathing difficulties.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,591
Mask mandates in school? I have no problem with that but they should be issued on town or city level rather than one coming from the state.
Then they won't be mandated in rural America, and we will just be left to watch people die. This isn't politics. This is public health, and kids across the country should be able to be safe attending school. Whether those safety rules are popular with local political leaders or not. The point is to keep schools open and provide a quality education to all kids; and short of mandatory vaccinations, masks are the best way to do that.
 
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Theatregirl1122

Needs a nap
Messages
26,876
People need to stop pretending like masks are completely harmless. In addition to impeding communication, verbal and non-verbal, there are a whole host of side effects. One study of many, with similar findings (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8260829/):



How is anyone supposed to learn with a headache, when they're struggling to speak, or even struggling to breathe?

Who are we trying to protect by telling children that they have to wear a mask in school? The unvaccinated? Sorry, they have ample opportunity to protect themselves by getting vaccinated. The vaccinated, from breakthrough infections? Those infections are few, milder, and less deadly, and do not warrant subjecting 80% of children to side effects, 50% to headaches, and 25% to breathing difficulties.

Self-reporting of symptoms by parents, 63% of whom did not want their children to wear masks, is not a scientific study of whether masks cause side effects in children. It’s a study of what parents think they see.

Parents have absolutely been unshakably convinced of the existence of the sugar high. But it doesn’t exist.

It’s possibly that masks cause side effects, but this study will not prove it. Something with actual unbiased observation is going to be needed. You can’t even say “masks cause headaches” without a control group. Come on now.

And school closures and remote learning due to quarantining from exposure or high levels of community spread, as well as virus mutation, all of which will happen to children, demonstrably cause significant learning loss as well as social and emotional harm to children.
 

missing

Well-Known To Whom She Wonders
Messages
4,882
I have a question for Louis and for anyone else who might not jump up and down and scream, "I know the answer!"

Quite possibly at some point during the school year, vaccines will become available for children under the age of 12. Some parents will get their children vaccinated. Other parents won't.

If an unvaccinated child passes CV19 to another unvaccinated child, are either or both sets of parents culpable? Not in a legal sense (since I doubt either of these two imaginary children will hire a lawyer and start suing). But responsible in a negative kind of way (i.e. culpable). Or do parents have no such responsibility for the health of other children whose parents also reject the responsibility?
 

sk8nlizard

Well-Known Member
Messages
987
Self-reporting of symptoms by parents, 63% of whom did not want their children to wear masks, is not a scientific study of whether masks cause side effects in children. It’s a study of what parents think they see.

Parents have absolutely been unshakably convinced of the existence of the sugar high. But it doesn’t exist.

It’s possibly that masks cause side effects, but this study will not prove it. Something with actual unbiased observation is going to be needed. You can’t even say “masks cause headaches” without a control group. Come on now.

And school closures and remote learning due to quarantining from exposure or high levels of community spread, as well as ***** mutation, all of which will happen to children, demonstrably cause significant learning loss as well as social and emotional harm to children.
Or like where we are where there’s no remote option and if you are out because you decide to quarantine (you don’t have to) or stay out the 10 days you are positive (again you don’t have to) those days count in your absences for the school year. I could be sent to truancy court, my kids could have to spend more time at school to make up missed time. It’s not like last year at all here in Texas and masks aren’t mandatory. From what I’ve seen, maybe 10% of kids will wear them. My kids are too young to be vaxxed, so when they catch Covid at school or are a close contact because people are worried about mask wearing in schools where basically none of the kids are eligible to be vaxxed seems like a terrible idea. Once everyone is able to be vaxxed that wants it, fine, until then I feel like I’m sending my kids out into danger that I don’t have to face myself. What if my children are the small percentage that have to be hospitalized or worse? Children need to be in school and I know this, but these are the things that keep me up at night!
 
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starrynight

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,052
Re masks - I’ve found a kind of the disposable ones that are comfortable enough and I’ve been able to order on Amazon (from the US) boxes of ones that are decorated in all sorts of colours that match my outfits. If wearing them means that we can have more freedom to go out, then it seems worth it.

Sure beats sitting at home like a lemon. Any discomfort from being masked is minuscule compared to the loneliness of sitting by myself at home.

I’ve ordered some kid size ones for my nieces so hopefully they are good too (we’re behind the rest of the world in Australia re spread so this is only now becoming an issue).
 

ballettmaus

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17,277
I'm seeing articles about more children, and sicker children, showing up in hospitals. I don't doubt that the overall number is small, but the doctors are saying Delta seems worse on children. At least a few children's hospitals have said they have no available ICU beds.
Since the viral load is higher and the v*rus multiplies faster once you're infected, I think it makes sense that we're seeing more symptomatic children with Delta, unfortunately.

To me it seems (also looking at statistics) there are generally more severe cases among North American children than for example among children in some North or middle European countries. Whatever the reasons for that are, I have no idea.
I think there are more children with underlying conditions in the US.

I don't expect anyone on this board to agree, but:
Probably because we're seeing evidence to the contrary. A few examples: Tennessee's children's hospitals/wards are on track to be full by the end of next week, the Houston area has a shortage of pediatric beds, Baton Rouge's children's hospitals were nearing capacity at the end of July.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,591
Probably because we're seeing evidence to the contrary. A few examples: Tennessee's children's hospitals/wards are on track to be full by the end of next week, the Houston area has a shortage of pediatric beds, Baton Rouge's children's hospitals were nearing capacity at the end of July.

South Carolina, North Carolina, and Kansas City, Missouri children's hospitals are being pushed to capacity also. Idaho is reporting a surge in cases among infants & toddlers. Arkansas & Oklahoma children's hospitals are also reporting rising covid cases combined with RSV surges. And . . .

Florida children's hospitals see pediatric COVID-19 cases soar​

First cases of COVID Lambda variant reported in north Louisiana​


Not any specifics in this article. It doesn't say how many cases have been sequenced in Louisiana. It basically says that the variant is being monitored because we don't know how aggressive it may prove to be.

"The Lambda variant was first reported in Peru in December and has become the dominant strain of the virus there. It's concerning for the country because the vaccine used in Peru is not effective against this new variant.

'They have stated that there may be some resistance to the vaccine, but that it was a different vaccine that they were using. They were using the Chinese vaccine,' Dr. Russo said."

Missouri to deploy ambulance teams to transport COVID-19 patients​

Missouri reported a seven-day average of 2,069 newly confirmed COVID-19 cases, which is the highest number since Jan. 12 when the seven-day average was 2,348

"Thirty ambulances and more than 60 medical personnel will be stationed across the state to help transport COVID-19 patients to other regions if nearby hospitals are too full to admit them, Missouri Gov. Mike Parson announced Friday."

"Several chief medical officers in Kansas City-area hospitals said during a video conference with area leaders on Friday that the hospitals are reaching capacity and have had to divert patients several times in recent weeks. They also said they are having staffing concerns as employees either have COVID-19 or are quarantining because of close contact."

"For example, Darryl Nelson, chief medical officer at HCA Health Midwest, which has seven hospitals in the Kansas City area, said as of Friday the system has 145 patients with COVID-19, with 46 in intensive care. The hospitals currently are at 94% capacity."

(I've been watching Missouri to see if it might plateau, since it's been surging the longest & had cases rising since May ; however, the surge started outside some of the major population centers & seems to have only more recently hit Kansas City & St. Louis so that makes one wonder).

-A Missouri state rep & her husband are both sick. Both unvaccinated. He is in the hospital.

-The child that died in Arkansas this week was an 11-year-old girl.

11-month-old girl with COVID transferred to Temple, Texas because no 'appropriate' pediatric beds available in Houston​

(Texas is averaging about 13,000 cases a day right now).

COVID hospitalizations are rising faster in Oregon than ever before. No one is sounding the alarm​

(Well, that title is rich from Oregon Live, as they are a major news outlet and up until this point, their major "concern" since reopening seems to have been not having to go back to restrictions. Sounding the alarm is as much their job as anyone else's, but I guess technically they are doing so now by publishing the article).

How Utah’s ban on mandating the COVID-19 vaccine could end next month

Utah law applies to vaccines under emergency authorization. Full FDA authorization for the Pfizer vaccine is expected by Labor Day.

-A California article says they also have 19% of cases coming in as breakthrough cases. (Same as the report in Oregon from yesterday).
 

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,277
Counterpoint on kids and masks: many of my friends with kids have said that the kids basically forget that they are wearing masks. They come home from school or sports or whatever and an hour later the parents notice that their masks are still on and tell them they can take them off.
My mom has noticed the same with the kids in her preschool (ages 2 to 5). It's similar for our neighbors' kids. They know that if they want to play together, they have to wear a mask. And my mom just told me that the grandkid of friends is always grabbing her mask when she plays going grocery shopping at home. She's 2 or 3 (and I think it's adorable).

I don't know of a single kid who's having trouble wearing their mask and I know of plenty of kids through my mom's job and our neighbors. (That doesn't mean that no kids exist who are having difficulties but I think it's mostly the adults who make it complicated).
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,591
Per Bloomberg,

Canada now has 60% of its total population fully vaccinated.

California has now given enough vaccination doses to cover 60% of its total population.

Alaska & Texas have now given enough vaccination doses to cover 50% of their total population.
 

once_upon

Vaccinated
Messages
21,813
Most, if not all, places on our trip have not required masks for vaccinated ,(of course everyone is on the honor system). Today we arrived in San Francisco-they just implemented a mask mandate for all in indoor spaces. As far as I can tell, businesses aren't really enforcing it. It maybe because it was newly implemented in the last day or two
 

Karen-W

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,308
Counterpoint on kids and masks: many of my friends with kids have said that the kids basically forget that they are wearing masks. They come home from school or sports or whatever and an hour later the parents notice that their masks are still on and tell them they can take them off.
Anecdotally, I would have to agree with you. My apartment complex has a lot of elementary age kids and while school was in session during the spring, they would play in the courtyard after school every afternoon. I noticed quite a few of them running around with their masks on, playing with each other. It didn't seem to be that big of a deal to any of them, at least not once they got used to wearing them all day at school.
 

MsZem

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,382
People need to stop pretending like masks are completely harmless. In addition to impeding communication, verbal and non-verbal, there are a whole host of side effects. One study of many, with similar findings (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8260829/):

How is anyone supposed to learn with a headache, when they're struggling to speak, or even struggling to breathe?
I looked over that paper - data collection was conducted in one country, is not based on a necessarily representative sample, and assumes that parents are accurately reporting their children's attitudes - I question this assumption. It's not clear what reported changes in behavior were due to masking and what might have been the effects of lockdowns, stress, and other things related to the pandemlc more broadly. The main drawback expressed by parents to pediatricians was fog on glasses, which isn't fun but can be dealt with.

Notably, a majority of the participants were against masking - because of their children's response or did they affect it with their own attitudes? Well:
When parents or children did not understand the reasons for wearing the mask, child tolerance was reduced, symptoms and behavioral changes were twice as frequent (except fogged glasses), and the number of children who were used to the mask was reduced.
In short, given the benefits of masking in schools (not pre-K, which I'm against) that others have already noted, I think you need better data to make a convincing counterargument.
 

moebius

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,342

Someone I know got Bell's Palsy a month after getting vaccinated. Wondering if it was a side effect or just a coincidence.....
Told ya so;) Snopes claims that nurse who had bells palsy was a fake when the vaccines first started to roll out. Believe me, there are a lot more side effects, even deaths that are not being reported.
 

skatingguy

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,912
Told ya so;) Snopes claims that nurse who had bells palsy was a fake when the vaccines first started to roll out. Believe me, there are a lot more side effects, even deaths that are not being reported.
No I don't believe you. Particularly when you're responding to an article talking about how Health Canada is updating guidance on the possible side effects that were reported. Just because there is one case where the person was faking doesn't mean that there aren't real cases, but at the same time the total cases of Bell's Palsy reported in Canada is 311 possible side effects from 50 million vaccine doses administered.
 

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,277
In short, given the benefits of masking in schools (not pre-K, which I'm against) that others have already noted, I think you need better data to make a convincing counterargument.
Pre-K kids play so close together that they breathe all over each other. They also have a tendency to wipe their nose, pick their nose or otherwise put their fingers in their mouth and then touch a toy or their friend. Preventing any of it is next to impossible.

At my mom's school all kids 2 and up were masked during the last school year (they were only allowed to take off the masks outside when seated (spaced out) at a table) and there was not a single known case among the kids or staff.
 

Hedwig

WoolSilk Fanatic
Messages
20,274
If it werent for the kids I would say open everything up- unvaccinated people for themselves- I am so annoyed with them.

but we have no idea about the long term effect of the illness on children‘s bodies. The lung damage this can do on people even in mild cases is not pretty.
but I fear whatever we do- the smaller kids will get it on the next 3-9 months anyway because of unvaccinated parents or care personal. :sad:
 

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