News & Experiences continued

quartz

scratching at the light
Messages
16,503
But schools haven't been a major source of transmission. Family gatherings have. I'm guessing because it's way harder to stay distanced with family/friends. You let your guard down at home. I'd way rather just crack down on where there's problems.
Our public school board has 85,000 students and staff - currently there is ONE active case, and there has only been a handful prior. Not sure of the size of our Catholic or private Christian School boards, but they have only had a very few as well. And that’s with about 80% of the students back in the schools.
 
Messages
8,734
We do have outbreaks at schools, at least six schools have reported a positive case. High school kids don’t wear masks when they are out for lunch, and they travel around in groups. That’s why I’m concerned.
There have been cases in schools, yes. Outbreaks, no. At least none I've heard of. There's been cases in lots of places; restaurants, gyms, etc... But if it's not a major source, we don't need to shut them down. I get it's not going to be a popular decision. We all are ready to go back to "normal", but it's just not going to happen whether we respect these guidelines or not.
 
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Prancer

Professional Spuddler
Staff member
Messages
51,979
Let's be honest: those who are pro-lockdown only care about themselves.
And who are these people again?

You keep posing this as a binary argument where people are either for lockdowns or against them, when it seems to me that no one favors lockdowns and they are considered a last resort after all other measures fail.

My governor is BEGGING people to wear masks and distance, and people aren't doing it. That's why our cases are going up. That's why everyone's cases are going up. At some point, we will probably go back to the sort of lockdown we had in spring (which was not a real lockdown) and the same people who refuse to wear masks and distance and therefore brought all this on will be the same people to riot because no one is the boss of them.
 

jeffisjeff

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,343
High school kids don’t wear masks when they are out for lunch, and they travel around in groups.
But that isn't in the school, which is the point. The experience in my area is that school is a safe place to be because masks and distancing (to some extent) are enforced. It is what kids and teachers do outside of school that causes the problems.
 

Orm Irian

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,306
Apart from this incredible example of irresponsibility...

They also really allowed an awful lot of "not very good idea during a *********" events.

Like nightclubs, discotheques were open up to 300 people, till end of September.

Like indoor concerts up to several hundreds people without distancing , like they had a musical with 600 people, where all the singers were yodeling and infected parts of the audience :shuffle: Their concept for the indoor concerts in general wasn't to have everybody sitting in distanced small groups like most other countires do, but partly it was allowed to just make groups of 300 people, that needed to be seperated.

Then there just recently was a river cruise ship with 90 people on it and one singer (also traditional "Swiss country music" with yodeling), everybody together on the ship for several days with a "hygiene concept", the result was that 69 old people AND the singer and her boyfriend were infected.

I'd say they were a tad too optimistic.

All those yodeling superspreading events make me wonder if yodeling is even worse than singing or if the Swiss really yodel THAT much :rofl:

I think cultural events are rather safe when they are outdoors and/or the audience is spaced ou twith social distancing and the people on stage are also distancing. The Swiss model obviously didn't work well.
Yeah, they opened up too far, too fast and it has not helped one little bit. The move to allow events with more than 1000 people when case numbers were already going up was particularly stupid. They got overconfident and complacent and now the population is bearing the cost of that. It’s just the sheer arrogant selfishness of this mob that gets me, much more so than people who were acting within the parameters of misguided rules - a true illustration of how the choices you make during a ********* affect not only you but people you’ve never even met and maybe never will, even to the point of costing them their lives.
 

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,879
I didn’t realize DW reopened!

Disney World has been open since summer. (I don't know if the water parks are open though). I haven't been but from what I've seen and heard: reduced opening hours, reduced capacity (you have to have a reservation to get into the park), mask madate and they control it, too. No mask and you don't get in.
Temperature checks (at least, they did at the beginning and I think they still do 🤷‍♀️), you have to consume food and beverage in designated areas (from what I understand even if you want to have a sip of water you can't have it on the go), they're currently not doing any "pre-shows" like the stretching room in the Haunted Mansion or where they show the video in the Tower of Terror, you just keep walking, parties are separated by party in the attraction (you won't sit with someone who's not in your party) and there's at least one row between parties, they spray the cars/boats with sanitizer and have mounted hand sanitizer dispensers at every exit of every attraction.
No fireworks, no parades, you're asked not to touch the merchandise, whenever an attraction is reached by elevator, they send up one party at a time, same at the hotels, they ask parties to get on the elevator one at a time, they have social distancing markers everywhere, they have temporary separations in the monorail (one party per "compartment"), tables in restaurants are spaced 6ft apart, waiters have face shields in addition to masks where they can't maintain 6ft on either side to the customer/other waiters, in many restaurants you're asked to use your cell phone to order instead of a menu and many restaurants don't accept walk-ins.

This is what I know of, don't know if they have additional measures. And, apparently, the effort is worth it.
 

Parsley Sage

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,835

KCC

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,192
I got notice today that my monthly health insurance premiums will be jumping by $120/month in January. Is that due to ***** (my first thought), getting another year older, lots of people dropping out of having health insurance or something else? Yes, I checked plans on the exchange and my plan is better than all of the other options when balancing premiums, deductibles and out-of-pocket maxes. I'm afraid that a huge slice of the population will not get health insurance next year and will just hope for the best.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,319

'Nightmare': Record number of *********-19 deaths, hospitalizations and cases in Wisconsin on Tuesday​

Over 5,000 cases in Wisconsin today. 64 deaths:cry:.

Wyoming among top five states for *********-19 infection rate​

(Wyoming had 387 cases yesterday).

Kansas sees third record-breaking weekend in a row for new *********-19 cases​

Kansas nursing home faces severe federal penalties after deadly ******** outbreak​


Alabama ******** hospitalizations top 1,000 for the first time since August​


Indoor dining has been closed in Chicago, Illinois.

The city of Las Cruces, New Mexico, declared an emergency & pledged to support mask-wearing & safety protocol enforcement.
(I think it is worth mentioning because so many towns want to throw up their hands or pass the buck for responsibility, but here is an example of a city taking on that responsibility).

******** outbreak among Arkansas lawmakers grows to 9​


A number of Salt Lake schools have been going back online in Utah.

895 students/staff are quarantined in Washington County, Tennessee.

Washington (State) joins multi-state review pact on *********-19 vaccine​


"Washington is among a handful of Western states that have joined a pact to independently review the safety and efficacy of any ******** vaccine that is ultimately approved by the FDA before any distribution occurs in those states."

"Last week, California was the first to announce such a plan, which includes Oregon and Nevada, and California Gov. Gavin Newsom said the independent review would happen regardless of who wins next week’s presidential election."

"Officials in New York, Michigan, West Virginia and Washington, D.C. have also announced that they are forming independent vaccine review panels."



And . . . as if all this is not enough:

Northern Kentucky dentist says *********-19 stress is causing increased cases of cracked teeth​

Oy.
 
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Miezekatze

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,066
And who are these people again?

You keep posing this as a binary argument where people are either for lockdowns or against them, when it seems to me that no one favors lockdowns and they are considered a last resort after all other measures fail.

Well Angela Merkel is suggesting to close all "leisure" places like restaurants, bars, sports and culture places etc from Nov 4th to end of November and people are only supposed to meet one other household.
(so like exactly the same rules as Sweden is suggesting right now, just mandatory)

Clearly this must mean she loves lockdowns! What other reason could there be?

She's probably been waiting for this ********* to come around , so she can finally spend her last year of governing Germany with doing really fun stuff like closing things :cheer2:

Is Louis stuck inside his London appartment again btw? :shuffle:
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
16,201
A member of the Ontario legislature was photographed at a restaurant without a mask and without following social distancing guidelines. Of course, this member is pro-life and anti-sex education, i.e. he has no problem with regulating other people's behaviour :rolleyes:


The hypocrisy infuriates me, BUT I am wondering if we need to stop reporting on it so widely. So many people (including me, at times) use it as an excuse to not follow rules. "X politician did it; therefore I can do it." Or "no one is following the rules" because "X famous person" isn't.

Is Louis stuck inside his London appartment again btw? :shuffle:

Yes, in a two-week quarantine. Despite the v*rus situation in Italy being better than the UK, there is quarantine upon return. Despite no enforcement, I am following the rules, at least 99% - I left twice to go on late-night runs when no one was around (technically not allowed, but I did it at a time when no one was out to minimize risk), and I have one friend temporarily living with me full-time. (I think allowed, but I can't keep up with all of the rules at this point. I don't think the government can mandate you kick out flatmates? :lol:) I haven't gone to any store or public place in 1-1/2 weeks - everything delivered.

And, yes, various politicians - including the Italian regional governments - are proposing total March/April-style lockdowns. People aren't protesting and rioting because they can't go to the gym. They're protesting and rioting because their jobs are being shut down, without any compensation, and they can't make their house and utility payments or buy food.
 

FGRSK8

Toad whisperer.....
Messages
20,084
Today we could see our first 500,000 daily worldwide new cases, if not, tomorrow for sure.
 

Miezekatze

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,066
And, yes, various politicians - including the Italian regional governments - are proposing total March/April-style lockdowns.

That's not the plan here. I'd guess in Italy it's due to sheer desperation if politicians are suggesting it.

In Germany they want to keep schools and industry open and close all the leisure stuff for roughly 4 weeks and require people to only meet one other household in private. With compensation for the closed sectors, even though that still won't make it easy for them of course.
 

snoopy

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,274
What if no one can really develop an effective vaccine? To me, I think that is a possibility. This is for a class of viruses for which it hasn't been done before. What is plan B?
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
16,201
What if no one can really develop an effective vaccine? To me, I think that is a possibility. This is for a class of viruses for which it hasn't been done before. What is plan B?

Exactly. What is the plan out of lockdown? What is the plan to get people back to work? What is the plan to get people back to school in countries that have not reopened schools? We have to time-box this somehow, after which we accept it's a new reality to which everyone needs to adjust without the government controlling our lives and movements, or we put restrictions to a democratic vote in public referenda. If the public votes for these restrictions to become the new normal, fine - I'll shut up.

However, people’s health and lives matter more to me.

ALL people's health and lives matter to me, which is why I support the Great Barrington Declaration and believe (as the WHO does) that we cannot have more lockdown. 75% of the deaths are coming from a very predictable < 5% of the population. We can predict this, and we can control it effectively if we devote resources to at-risk people instead of mortgaging our future for perfectly healthy, low-risk people, who are perfectly willing to work, to stay at home doing nothing for months or possibly years on end, with no exit strategy other than a vaccine that may never come (and is at least a year away from broad distribution).
 

Erin

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,470
What if no one can really develop an effective vaccine? To me, I think that is a possibility. This is for a class of viruses for which it hasn't been done before. What is plan B?

I think there has actually been a lot of work on Plan B, which is basically better/faster testing and better treatments, and we've already seen the effects of that. And I haven't seen any evidence that those efforts are being abandoned.
 

snoopy

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,274
I think there has actually been a lot of work on Plan B, which is basically better/faster testing and better treatments, and we've already seen the effects of that. And I haven't seen any evidence that those efforts are being abandoned.

True and we have lowered the death rate over the past 5 months from those efforts. It is not even an automatic death sentence for the elderly anymore. At some point, then, we have to decide a certain amount of death is inevitable or we stay in lockdown indefinitely (absent a vaccine). That is part of plan B - making that decision or accepting that reality.
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
Messages
59,179
True and we have lowered the death rate over the past 5 months from those efforts. It is not even an automatic death sentence for the elderly anymore. At some point, then, we have to decide a certain amount of death is inevitable or we stay in lockdown indefinitely (absent a vaccine). That is part of plan B - making that decision or accepting that reality.

I think we continue to evolve our response and if we don't develop an effective vaccine, we likely do continue to develop better treatments. There will come a point where the threat is below a certain threshold because of either a vaccine or treatments or a combination of both and it becomes more like the yearly flu situation, where we take precautions, and it is an ongoing part of our landscape. I don't think we are there yet at all but I don't think its necessarily that far off one way or the other that we should give up and start accepting the even higher levels of hospitalizations we would get if we stopped all restrictions now.

One thing down the road I think we'll see is the adoption of what Japanese do, which is when a person themself is sick they wear a mask. We didn't have that at all here and someone with the flu or a bad cold often just walked around spreading it to whoever was unlucky enough to be around them. I think we've learned a lot of ways we can minimize the ***** in the future even if we don't get a blanket protection from a full-scale vaccine.
 

Miezekatze

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,066
The mitigation plan for the semi-lockdown in Germany btw is to pay the affected businesses 75% of their revenue that they made in November 2019 (since they're supposed to close from Nov 2 till end of November).

That is estimated to cost about 8 - 10 billion Euros.

Also one has to be honest, of course it's terrible for fitness studios, restaurants, theaters, movie theaters, sports venues and similar stuff to have to close again for another months and for shops to follow stricter rules about the amount of customers that can enter.

But if there are 50 000 - 100 000 new infections per day in December, like it would happen if nothing is done, I doubt tons of people would be going to theaters, restaurants and fitness centers anymore either.
 
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Miezekatze

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,066
I agree with what BlueRidge wrote. Also I read that the ongoing results from the Phase III AstraZeneca vaccine for example are promising, showing a good immune response especially with the elderly probants, so I don't think there's a need to be overly pessimistic.

Are there countries who have not reopened schools at all?
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
Messages
59,179
I agree with what BlueRidge wrote. Also I read that the ongoing results from the Phase III AstraZeneca vaccine for example are promising, showing a good immune response especially with the elderly probants, so I don't think there's a need to be overly pessimistic.

I would also be wary of the "we may never be able to control this so we might as well end all restrictions and go back to normal life now" line. It has a political motivation, at least in the US, it comes from the Trump forces who want to deny the political consequences of the *********. They still want to prematurely end restrictions as a political ploy.

Its obvious enough we need to maintain the actions we have had since the start of the ********* through the winter. Even a partially effective vaccine will make a difference on what we need to do and we could have one by spring.
 

allezfred

Lipinski Stole My Catchphrase
Staff member
Messages
60,199
ALL people's health and lives matter to me, which is why I support the Great Barrington Declaration and believe (as the WHO does) that we cannot have more lockdown. 75% of the deaths are coming from a very predictable < 5% of the population. We can predict this, and we can control it effectively if we devote resources to at-risk people instead of mortgaging our future for perfectly healthy, low-risk people, who are perfectly willing to work, to stay at home doing nothing for months or possibly years on end, with no exit strategy other than a vaccine that may never come (and is at least a year away from broad distribution).
DR JOHNNY BANANAS
 

KCC

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,192
Is anyone working on more effective, reproducible and affordable PPE? Something that protects the wearer, not (necessarily) others? Having something that works really well and is easy/comfortable to wear could solve a lot of problems, assuming of course that people actually wear them.
 
Messages
8,734
Is anyone working on more effective, reproducible and affordable PPE? Something that protects the wearer, not (necessarily) others? Having something that works really well and is easy/comfortable to wear could solve a lot of problems, assuming of course that people actually wear them.

I personally know a PhD student that is working on all this. I imagine there's many others.
 

Debbie S

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,233
Latest from Dr. Fauci (it's on a page with multiple stories, you may need to scroll down): https://tinyurl.com/y6p3f4g3

"If we get a vaccination campaign, and by the second or third quarter of 2021 we have vaccinated a substantial proportion of the people, I think it will be easily by the end of 2021, and perhaps even into the next year, before we start having some semblances of normality," Fauci said during a University of Melbourne panel.
Maybe I won't be going to SA or Nats next season. :(
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
44,474
At some point, then, we have to decide a certain amount of death is inevitable
We've already decided that. If we hadn't we would all be in real lockdown, not just having some things closed and others opened with restrictions. And over 210,000 people dead with no end in sight.

This is what I don't understand: Countries all over the world were able to control the spread of C19. They now have little to no community spread. They have occasional outbreaks that are swiftly squashed. Pretty much everything is open there. Including large events.

Yet apparently "lockdowns don't work" and "we can't control this thing" and we might as well open it all up, let it rip, and accept the death of 1 million people.

Let's not fool ourselves here. We absolutely could control this thing. We just aren't willing to do what it takes to make that happen.
 

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