News & Experiences continued

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
14,662
Tobacco use and obesity do terrible, long-lasting things to the body, too.....We need to be spending more effort on doing something to curb these known killers, which also dramatically increase risk of dying from c0vid*19, than worrying about potential long-term effects of c0vid-19 which are affecting only a small proportion of people. Too much time spent on edge cases means too little progress in other areas that can have much higher impact with lower effort.

C0vid-19 is here to stay, flattened curve or not. We need to learn to live with it. Yes, large numbers of people will die, even if the proportion is 0.05% of those infected. I may be one of them. You may be one of them. Teachers will be among them. Students will be among them. Not to sound fatalistic, but (short of in a few places like New Zealand) there's nothing we can do to eradicate it - people catch the ***** while sheltering in place, e.g., New York. Even countries with long, protracted shutdowns have not eradicated it. Full lockdown is impossible - people still need to get food, go to the doctor, etc., and most places have too many cases for "normal" lockdown to have a realistic chance at eradication - which in turns means closed borders until a vaccine is developed. Lockdown also kills people, and may kill more people than the lives it saves (depending on the R rate) based on British government studies.

This is an impossible picture, and we all must accept that: we cannot stop people from getting sick and dying. There is plenty we can and should do to slow the spread, like masks, distancing, sanitation practices, and shields - and I'm in full support of those being enforced, and of severe consequences for idiots who do not obey the rules.

We have to move past denial, anger, bargaining, and depression into this acceptance new, post-c0vid world. The only alternative is cowering in place until a vaccine is available, tested, and available - which is not fool-proof by any means (2/3 of people in NYC say they were sheltering in place when they caught c0vid), and by which point something else may well have killed you or life will have gone by.

I've decided I like wearing a mask - more to protect myself from secondhand smoke, which is a bigger killer than c0vid-19.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
Messages
63,081
Yeah, everybody says they were sheltering in place, except for that one time....and when Uncle Dave went to..... but all the other time!. Patients lie. That's why getting a very accurate history is difficult.
 

Louis

Private citizen
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14,662
Maybe patients lie; maybe the ***** is airborne or spread through shared ventilation systems or another way. Who knows, and it doesn't really matter.

Even assuming patients lie - why should we assume a second (or continued) lockdown will be any better than the first? If anything, I suspect compliance will be worse. Look at Spain - this is what happens when you lock people up in cages for months. There are protests about going back into lockdown. Serbia, too, and the government had to abandon plans when things turned violent. Belgium as well (which continues to be worse than Sweden on all metrics despite early lockdown). People won't survive a second lockdown. And the level of enforcement required would probably require enough people on the streets that the ***** would continue to spread.
 

Susan1

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,306
ah, everybody says they were sheltering in place, except for that one time....and when Uncle Dave went to..... but all the other time!. Patients lie. That's why getting a very accurate history is difficult.
It's like they always say about drinking, if the patient says they have one or two drinks a week, it's probably three or four or more.

I've noted every time I've been to Kroger or CVS, etc., always in a mask and with as much social distancing as possible. None of them have been any kind of gathering. The last "real" person I saw was my cousin in April, when he came to loan me his laptop. He had on a mask, before very many people were wearing them. Well, I had on a mask and stayed 6 ft. away from the guys who mow the grass when I had them get some gunk out of the gutter over the garage a couple weeks ago.

Small misc. from local news -

not good -
A caregiver at one of the two Wright Patt day cares has tested positive. It's closed for cleaning.

Adorable -
The Clark county fair had signs that said to "stay one cow apart" with silhouettes of a person, then a cow, then another person. But, we'll see what numbers there look like in two weeks. Actually, people from other counties could have gone too, just for something to do. We used to go to a different one every week. It was just a junior fair with limited capacity though, so maybe not. I'm sitting here having a discussion with myself again. ha ha
 

Susan1

Well-Known Member
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7,306

allezfred

#EpidemiologistsNotEconomists
Staff member
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56,395
Look at Spain - this is what happens when you lock people up in cages for months.
This kind of hyperbole really doesn’t help people take you seriously whatever good points you may have. Just a tip from me to you.
 

Susan1

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,306
me again - funny. OT enough - I just got done saying I never see any "real" people. I went out at 7:30 this morning in baggy shorts and t-shirt, no bra, with my hair still clipped up on the back of my head from overnight to look at the curb....
(because <you know I always have a long story> there was a flyer taped to my front door yesterday about painting numbers on my curb. The last time I looked they were all faded and cracked. So I went out this morning and there's absolutely nothing there. I looked up and down the street and the only ones I could see any sign of were at the house across the street, not even in the cul-de-sac across from me. The snowplow must scrape them off. You can't see the house numbers above my mailbox from the street either because of the tall shrub underneath and my yard slopes down to the street. So I am going to have it done - $20.)
....and the guy next door pulled into his driveway. Way more than 6 ft. apart, but really, 7:30 a.m.? He asked me what I was looking at. I told him. And then a guy came riding a bicycle up the street, on my side of the street, while I was standing in the street. He did not have on a mask, but I kept my back to him. He rode by far enough away. The guy on the other side was driving to work right when I got back in the house. But geez. It's so quiet here - until I go out looking like the wreck of the Hesperus - then there is practically a parade.
:rolleyes:
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
14,662
This kind of hyperbole really doesn’t help people take you seriously whatever good points you may have. Just a tip from me to you.
People were not allowed to leave their homes, not even for exercise or a walk. Adults could go to grocery stores at limited intervals; children not at all. In most countries, prisoners have more rights.

I'm not surprised people are going overboard now and protesting more lockdown. This was not a healthy way to life, for anyone at any time. Some of the countries that were most compliant during lockdown are the least compliant post-lockdown, and the (temporary) benefits from lockdown are fast going up in smoke. What we're seeing now is likely the result of physical and mental trauma imposed on people by the government. There are people who - sadly - don't have any fcuks left to give. I believe it's probably related to trauma. I don't think they're in their right minds, and it's probably not fair to expect them to be.

To some extent, I think a similar thing is happening in the U.S., but with the news media causing the trauma.

While I think the UK government was far from perfect, I am grateful that the lockdown at least allowed for some provisions for mental health (e.g., daily exercise), and I'm grateful that Boris Johnson has committed to no more lockdown. Descriptions of it as a "nuclear" option are apt.
 

allezfred

#EpidemiologistsNotEconomists
Staff member
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56,395
People were not allowed to leave their homes, not even for exercise or a walk. Adults could go to grocery stores at limited intervals; children not at all. In most countries, prisoners have more rights.
Again you’re not doing yourself any favours here.
 

MsZem

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,394
The lockdowns were absolutely the right call back in March, when we knew very little about C0vid-19. We still have a lot to learn, but it's increasingly clear what needs to be done to live with the vlrus, which unfortunately will have to happen because there is a limit to what we can expect of people and how much societies can endure. I realize that the dangers posed by C0vid-19 are more salient at the moment, but a lot of less visible damage can occur if governments take an overly restrictive approach.

The Swedish model was wrong back in spring. A modified version of it is not necessarily wrong now.
 

antmanb

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,137
People were not allowed to leave their homes, not even for exercise or a walk. Adults could go to grocery stores at limited intervals; children not at all. In most countries, prisoners have more rights.
Regardless how dramatic you are with it, being in your own home and only being allowed out for essential food/medicine shopping is not "being locked in a cage". Not even close. Even a small apartment is not being locked in a cage and not even remotely close to being in prison :drama::drama: and no, even with the strict lockdown in Spain prisoners categorically did not have more rights than everyone else in Spain :rolleyes:

If I were a Spanish person i'd be more annoyed at my government allowing tourism from countries like the UK which is surely a contributing factor to the rise in cases. Especially on any of the Spanish islands where intensive care beds are often just one or two for the whole island. A place like Ibiza has a elderly population who live there year round and their priority all along was to make sure they had no cases on the Island to protect its residents.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
Messages
63,081
Regardless how dramatic you are with it, being in your own home and only being allowed out for essential food/medicine shopping is not "being locked in a cage". Not even close. Even a small apartment is not being locked in a cage and not even remotely close to being in prison :drama::drama: and no, even with the strict lockdown in Spain prisoners categorically did not have more rights than everyone else in Spain :rolleyes:

If I were a Spanish person i'd be more annoyed at my government allowing tourism from countries like the UK which is surely a contributing factor to the rise in cases. Especially on any of the Spanish islands where intensive care beds are often just one or two for the whole island. A place like Ibiza has a elderly population who live there year round and their priority all along was to make sure they had no cases on the Island to protect its residents.
But he was inconvenienced! :drama: And, with Louis, it's all about his comfort. His lifestyle. Him.
 

canbelto

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,950
Holy shit. The teacher FB group I am in has now become a hotbed for anti-vaccine, anti-science ravings. This morning there were a slew of people bitching that the demon sex doctor video they uploaded was taken down and they want to demand that their doctors write them hydroxyquinoline.
 

JoannaLouise

Official Toaster Oven Monitor
Messages
2,872
Ontario has 76 new cases! Double digits! Amazing progress!
Oh, that's amazing to hear! I hadn't looked at the daily case numbers yet because I was kind of afraid to.

And my region of Ontario, which is relatively populous in Canadian terms (around 600,000 people), reported no new cases yesterday, and only one today.
 

million$momma

Well-Known Member
Messages
402
Weeeee!!! Toronto has been given the green light to move on to stage 3!!! :cheer2: Ontario also has the lowest new daily confirmed cases since March 22.
https://tinyurl.com/y26z6bpc
We have been Stage 3 in my area for a bit now. I'm noticing that most people however are keeping to the Stage 2 rules. Restaurants are empty but patios are doing good business, gatherings are remaining small and outdoors... The mandatory mask law has made people wary. IMO this is a good thing.
 

once_upon

Voter
Messages
15,684
Holy shit. The teacher FB group I am in has now become a hotbed for anti-vaccine, anti-science ravings. This morning there were a slew of people bitching that the demon sex doctor video they uploaded was taken down and they want to demand that their doctors write them hydroxyquinoline.
I have two nurse friends who are posting similar stuff. Except they aren't anti vaccines.
 

Theatregirl1122

Needs a nap
Messages
22,735
We have been Stage 3 in my area for a bit now. I'm noticing that most people however are keeping to the Stage 2 rules. Restaurants are empty but patios are doing good business, gatherings are remaining small and outdoors... The mandatory mask law has made people wary. IMO this is a good thing.
Yeah, indoor restaurants are open here, but I am NOT about to go into them, and most of my friends aren't either. We know that outdoors is much safer than indoors. I don't need to take that chance.
 

Sparks

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,367

MacMadame

Staying at home
Messages
36,436
This is not remotely surprising IMO and it's why the idea of protecting the vulnerable and letting everyone else do whatever they want is not feasible. (Even if we set aside the reality that the non-vulnerable on paper can still get very sick and even die.)
 

once_upon

Voter
Messages
15,684
This is not remotely surprising IMO and it's why the idea of protecting the vulnerable and letting everyone else do whatever they want is not feasible. (Even if we set aside the reality that the non-vulnerable on paper can still get very sick and even die.)
Which goes into the school discussion. Kids may have milder cases or asymptomatic but teachers are older.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
Messages
36,436
I'm not sure if this was posted here. Some concern about a 2nd wave in Europe:


And about people refusing to isolate in Hawaii and being forced to:

More about hygiene theater:

Movie theaters opening up elsewhere but Hollywood has given up on the US and is debuting "Tenant" overseas:
 

MsZem

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,394
Cross-posting from the baseball thread... another day, another Marlins player testing positive.
The good news: no positive tests for any of the other teams at this time.
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
14,662
But he was inconvenienced! :drama: And, with Louis, it's all about his comfort. His lifestyle. Him.
I don't live in Spain and haven't been there in quite some time, so no, this isn't about me. It's about lockdown failing spectacularly, once again demonstrating that the so-called "Swedish model" is the only sustainable model short of martial law. And if you need martial law to achieve your objective, then you're no better than Trump and team.

It's really no surprise people are behaving crazily now. Lockdowns have pushed some people into a semi-feral state, and we're seeing that in their actions. The constant hysteria over second waves, etc. has also driven people into a perpetual state of fear that this is their only brief chance to live before being sent back to captivity. I suspect many would rather get c0vid-19 than endure another lockdown. I'll raise my hand and say I would. I'm not going to go party the night away in Barcelona, but I understand why others are. (And it's locals, not tourists, from what I'm seeing.)

The Swedish model is the only way. Lockdowns must be taken off the table. Basic human rights must be guaranteed. Otherwise, this is just going to continue.
 

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