Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

[Rob]

A civil liability case could provide compensation to her, but I doubt there is a civil remedy that would prevent him from competing/coaching. Other than for legal fees, she’s not seeking compensation for herself, she’s more concerned with him continuing to have access to female skaters.

 

[DORISPULASKI]

True. But anything that makes it clear what a violent rape this was might, I hope, deter rinks from allowing him to coach there because of the liability they might incur.

 

[Dragonlady]

Happy to donate, but is there no good lawyer who will take her case pro bono?

This will be both time consuming and expensive, in terms of disbursements and costs involved. It would have to be a very large firm to take on the case entirely pro bono. A lawyer may be in a position to waive/reduce fees, but disbursements may be beyond their ability to donate.

Bluntly stated, this is the kind of case that would get assigned to a law clerk in a large firm, to keep costs down. I can hear the discussion of all of the reasons why in my head, none of which addresses the core issue of keeping young skaters safe from predation in this sport.

 

[MacMadame]

True. But anything that makes it clear what violent rape this was might, I hope, deter rinks from allowing him to coach there because of the liability they might incur.

It might deter some rinks but there will always be a rink that will be happy to take him. We've seen that happen over and over.

 

[nlloyd]

It all adds up. Plus, she may draw comfort from knowing how many people support her and that she is raising awareness.
.

This was my rationale too, even though I wished I could have given more.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Interesting discussion about the ISU and their role in how they can manage the issue.

Just as businesses can receive accreditation for meeting standards in safety, environmental and management systems, the ISU could also have an accreditation process that is one of the requirements for a federation to be a member of the ISU. That would be a minimum set of standards to do with sports integrity that the member would be required to have. These would be policies and procedures that they are required to have in place. And there is no need to for any federation to have to reinvent the wheel. There are already some good practices out there in place that could become templates.

This would also apply to any officials who are currently officiating at ISU events and coaches would not be able to get accreditation without having done some sort of training.

I do understand there are a number barriers to this, whether it is cultural or administrative. However if the ISU did adopt some kind of standard, it would be sending a message that certain things are not tolerated. It would be a start.

 

[MacMadame]

The ISU does advertise some standards similar to SafeSport. I don't know the details and how extensive they are.

 

[kwanfan1818]

None of this addresses the jurisdictional problem, which only an agreement among national SafeSport-esque organizations or a centralized organization can.

Also given the overwork and failure rate of the established organizations in getting their decisions to stick, I'm not sure what more they can offer but a framework.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

There really needs to be an international "let's err on the side of caution" rule that overrides jurisdictional issues. Making sure skating coaches and officials aren't predators seems like a pretty basic premise to work from.

 

[Aussie Willy]

None of this addresses the jurisdictional problem, which only an agreement among national SafeSport-esque organizations or a centralized organization can.

Also given the overwork and failure rate of the established organizations in getting their decisions to stick, I'm not sure what more they can offer but a framework.

I realised before typing any more that I should probably check the ISU website. The ISU do have a page dedicated to Safeguarding and resources for that.

Inside ISU

Corporate Home - International Skating Union

isu.org

Interestingly for all the discussions from my federation, I don't recall the ISU being mentioned. I think we are so focused in regards to our own country that we are not even discussing what the ISU are doing. It was raised at a meeting about how other countries behave in regards to athletes attending international events (eg some countries have no problem with male coaches walking into female change rooms because they just accept it). I am surprised that the ISU standards were not brought up. Appears that people are unaware of it.

Now that the ISU is working with athletes in regards to social media, there could be a campaign with those athletes promoting this. This would be an opportune time to get traction on it. Even if it is getting athletes saying "I don't accept inappropriate behaviour". It shouldn't be done through journalists or a Netflix series. The ISU have an opportunity to directly address it. It doesn't have to be a sledgehammer. The first step is to raise awareness and take it from there.

 

[SnowQueen11]

I realised before typing any more that I should probably check the ISU website. The ISU do have a page dedicated to Safeguarding and resources for that.

Inside ISU

Corporate Home - International Skating Union

isu.org

Interestingly for all the discussions from my federation, I don't recall the ISU being mentioned. I think we are so focused in regards to our own country that we are not even discussing what the ISU are doing. It was raised at a meeting about how other countries behave in regards to athletes attending international events (eg some countries have no problem with male coaches walking into female change rooms because they just accept it). I am surprised that the ISU standards were not brought up. Appears that people are unaware of it.

Now that the ISU is working with athletes in regards to social media, there could be a campaign with those athletes promoting this. This would be an opportune time to get traction on it. Even if it is getting athletes saying "I don't accept inappropriate behaviour". It shouldn't be done through journalists or a Netflix series. The ISU have an opportunity to directly address it. It doesn't have to be a sledgehammer. The first step is to raise awareness and take it from there.

I think the issue in this case was that Sorensen was previously skating for Denmark at the time of the assault. It occurred during a visit to the U.S. He was living, training and supposedly coaching in Canada at the time (he was attempting to compete for Canada that season with Vanessa Crone) and it’s been documented during that time that he was taking Canadian skating tests in order to compete for Canada with her.

He was not technically competing internationally for Denmark or Canada at the time. However, doesn’t safesport apply to anyone who is a member of skate Canada? They don’t have to be on the national team.

To me, it seems clear that Canada would be the correct jurisdiction to handle his case.

It will be appalling if this case falls through the cracks because his lawyers play jurisdictional games and Skate Canada is trying to avoid accountability at all costs.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Maybe Foy should sue Skate Canada and Canadian Safe Sport for extreme emotional distress and for depriving her of her right to due process?

 

[skategal]

Maybe Foy should sue Skate Canada and Canadian Safe Sport for extreme emotional distress and for depriving her of her right to due process?

How so though?

Weren’t they the ones that proceeded with the investigation and then sanctioned him?

It’s the appeal process that is letting him off on a technicality iirc?

 

[Rhumba d’Amour]

I realised before typing any more that I should probably check the ISU website. The ISU do have a page dedicated to Safeguarding and resources for that.

Inside ISU

Corporate Home - International Skating Union

isu.org

Interestingly for all the discussions from my federation, I don't recall the ISU being mentioned. I think we are so focused in regards to our own country that we are not even discussing what the ISU are doing. It was raised at a meeting about how other countries behave in regards to athletes attending international events (eg some countries have no problem with male coaches walking into female change rooms because they just accept it). I am surprised that the ISU standards were not brought up. Appears that people are unaware of it.

Now that the ISU is working with athletes in regards to social media, there could be a campaign with those athletes promoting this. This would be an opportune time to get traction on it. Even if it is getting athletes saying "I don't accept inappropriate behaviour". It shouldn't be done through journalists or a Netflix series. The ISU have an opportunity to directly address it. It doesn't have to be a sledgehammer. The first step is to raise awareness and take it from there.

I very much support the idea of skating’s biggest stars making SM content stating without qualification that inappropriate conduct has no place in this sport and is unacceptable to them personally. I suspect that many of them feel very strongly about this.

 

[SnowQueen11]

How so though?

Weren’t they the ones that proceeded with the investigation and then sanctioned him?

It’s the appeal process that is letting him off on a technicality iirc?

It has been documented that Skate Canada has not been forthcoming when it comes to his membership records and activities in Canada at this time.

 

[skategal]

It has been documented that Skate Canada has not been forthcoming when it comes to his membership records and activities in Canada at this time.

I assume that they would have to reinstate him if his appeal was one and cannot be forthcoming without incurring liability from him/his lawyer?

 

[Dragonlady]

I have no faith that the ISU will be able to do anything meaningful. Look at how badly they've handled judging controversies, doping and other cheating. I can't look at any governmental or non-governmental agency in any nation in the world which is doing an adequate job of protecting women and children from sexual exploitation or abuse.

If anything, things are getting worse, not better.

 

[overedge]

There's really no point to a campaign to raise awareness of abuse, if there's no meaningful mechanisms in place to address the abuse when it's reported, and to discipline the abusers.

The problem isn't awareness.

 

[Aussie Willy]

A lack of mechanisms for consequences doesn't mean that you shouldn't do anything. A level of basic training or awareness is at least a step in the right direction. Because most of the time until someone brings something up it may not even be on your radar.

Cultural change is one of the most difficult things for an organisation to do. That we are even discussing it here is important because we all realise there are problems and would like to see it addressed. But if those at the top of the tree are not doing it, there is no reason why we cannot.

So getting skaters on board to talk about it, who are the people that the broader community look up to, would be an important first step. Plus it treats them as a bit more thoughtful and intelligent than just asking them what their favourite ice cream is. And it would be better to have a proactive approach.

 

[overedge]

I agree that something meaningful needs to be done. But it's all too easy for federations, clubs, etc to condemn abuse and encourage victims to report it, without putting resources into actually helping the victims that come forward.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Lori Ward has a piece out today about Canadian skater Liam Dougherty and the emotional abuse he ensured while being coached by the late Paul Wirtz (other coaches too but Wirtz in particular). "Dougherty says the years of verbal and emotional abuse that he both experienced and witnessed contributed to lifelong mental health challenges, including depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, and a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)."

 

[overedge]

Liam's story hits particularly hard a few days after the Edmonton Oilers hired a new head coach that has a long and well-documented history of bullying players. I was appalled to see some sports columnists saying things along the lines of, the team mgmt knows he's a bully and they hired him, they know what they're getting, so we don't want to hear any complaints from the players about their mental health this season.

I know that's hockey, not figure skating. But it's the same mindset of suck it up, buttercup, and if it gets results, who cares. It's sickening.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Wait, so the management knowingly hiring a bully means the players can’t complain? The players didn’t hire the bully.

 

[overedge]

Wait, so the management knowingly hiring a bully means the players can’t complain? The players didn’t hire the bully.

Jockstrap-sniffing sportswriting never makes sense. As far as I can tell, the underlying theme is that management made its decision and if a player doesn't want to be coached by a bully, they can find another team to play for. With a hint of "he's a tough coach and the players that complained about him before are wusses".

I took a quick peek at today's coverage, and the new party line seems to be: the coach has a "clean slate" in Edmonton so let's give him a chance. (AFAIK he hasn't done any actual coaching yet.) Management also trotted out an Oilers player, who was on a previous team that had this coach, to say how awesome the coach is.

Like I said, sickening.

 

[RoseRed]

Wait, so the management knowingly hiring a bully means the players can’t complain? The players didn’t hire the bully.

I hate the hiring, but they did apparently consult the top couple players (assumed to mean Connor McDavid, Leon Draisaitl and Zach Hyman), who were all for it. And with the Oilers, McDavid at least (and probably Draisaitl too) definitely did have the power to approve/veto the coach. And Hyman played for Babcock in the past, and apparently supports him.

So yeah, I won't have all that much sympathy for any of them complaining later, given how much information about his past behaviour is public. But those three aren't the ones who Babcock would bully anyways, based on his history. And I definitely will have sympathy for the other players.

 

[Dragonlady]

A lack of mechanisms for consequences doesn't mean that you shouldn't do anything. A level of basic training or awareness is at least a step in the right direction. Because most of the time until someone brings something up it may not even be on your radar.

Cultural change is one of the most difficult things for an organisation to do. That we are even discussing it here is important because we all realise there are problems and would like to see it addressed. But if those at the top of the tree are not doing it, there is no reason why we cannot.

So getting skaters on board to talk about it, who are the people that the broader community look up to, would be an important first step. Plus it treats them as a bit more thoughtful and intelligent than just asking them what their favourite ice cream is. And it would be better to have a proactive approach.

I agree with everything in this post, except the last paragraph. The problem with getting skaters to talk about it is that it leaves them vulnerable to retribution, or even law suits from their abusers. Their livelihoods and careers are at stake, so the lesser lights will fight the allegations, and not just because they're in denial they did something wrong. And if the coach is successful enough, nothing will be done about anything they do.

Eteri Tutberidze is a prime example - her skaters are injured and gone before they're 20, and she's slagged and bullied her teenage skaters on social media when they leave her. Or how about Nickolai Morosov? He married his latest wife shortly after her 18th birthday. He was 40. Parents continued to hand their daughters over to Bob Young to coach, even after accusations against him became public.

I don't expect skaters to talk about this stuff while they're competing. That's asking far too much of them. I'm not suggesting that we sweep stuff under the carpet either, but I really don't have any answers on this.

 

[BittyBug]

Dougherty’s story is absolutely heartbreaking.

 

[Dragonlady]

Dougherty’s story is absolutely heartbreaking.

His story is hardly unique or unusual. I changes coaches for my daughter when she stopped enjoying skating classes because her first coach was so "demanding". She was 7.

A friend, who's daughter went to US Nationals as a junior, said one of her daughter's coaches didn't want parents at the rink when their daughter was skating. Big red flag. She subsequently learned that the coach was verbally abusive, and she changed coaches.

 

[BittyBug]

His story is hardly unique or unusual.

I understand that because I’ve witnessed it myself with other coaches / skaters. It’s still painful to read his story, though, and I hope we never become numb to this type of abuse.

 

[puglover]

I wish I had understood more fully the tremendous impact that coaches have long term on their athletes. My own experience with my children did not (to my knowledge) include any overtly harmful and damaging comments. However, I could relate seeing more subtle but pointed ways of humiliating and causing pain. It was often very obvious who was in the coach's good books by the time and attention they got, who was chosen for what, and overall attitude. I recall once at the time of choosing new programs we had discussed with the coach that my daughter would skate to Irish music (her heritage), a costume was talked about and sketches made. I happened to mention this to one of the other mothers whose two daughters were coach favourites. When we came back after the break her daughter had the Irish program and ended up with that costume. Not exactly abuse but still hurtful. Pile it all up and the message that skater gets (really children) is damaging.