January Democratic Debate: Seeking Someone of Unimpeachable Credentials

clairecloutier

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I like Tammy Duckworth. I don't know as she would be be picked as a potential VP, but I like her.

I think Cory Booker would be worth considering. Castro would probably be too progressive for Biden.

Definitely not Sinema, I would NOT want to see her on the ticket.
 

ballettmaus

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He implied during the debate that Warren "had her chance" in 2016
Between the two of them isn't it actually Sanders who has had his chance in 2016? (And with this attitude, there are people who doubt he could have told Warren that he doesn't think a woman can win?)


Unity is going to be essential and I don’t think Biden or Bernie can or even care to provide that.
Biden definitely cares. I'm more worried that he won't be able to get people to the polling stations. Same goes for Sanders, although, with him I also wonder if he can unite the country. He seems to be a "head through the wall first" kind of guy and I'm not sure if he has the instinct and emphathy (for the lack of a better word) that that takes, or like you said, that he cares.
 

MacMadame

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Bernie has not run his campaign in a way that convinces me he's a uniter. Or cares. OTOH, I read in 2016 that Bernie was very good at working with colleagues to get his ideas implemented as amendments to bills. That takes negotiation skills IMO. So maybe he can be or at least once was?

Biden, OTOH, I think sees himself as this great uniter. But he also seems to be living in the 90s and not today's reality where one party will do anything to get power no matter how many norms they break or lines they cross. I want to see some evidence he can really form coalitions before I am just going to take his word for it.
 

BlueRidge

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I'm not looking for someone who can get the Republicans to work with Democrats in Congress. To start with I'm not even looking for someone to bring together more than the people who don't support Trump. I want someone who can unite the Democrats and bring in people who don't like Trump but aren't sure they are Democrats either.

If someone could get a majority to feel united, even a bare one, that would be a good start at this point.

Biden does aspire to that which is different from his 1980s claims that he can "work across the aisle." I don't know if he can but he at least apparently has a multi-racial base that he's working from and an appeal to some white working class, albeit not Trumpists as well as mainstream Democrats.
 

VGThuy

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I have to say, I don't think most of the U.S., even the Dems, are ready for the changes Bernie wants or even Warren. I guess I'm resigned to support Biden, but I have to remind myself it's a long game and the President should probably the most moderate candidate whose appeal is broad based and as rfisher and others have reminded us, any real movement and change to the left has to happen locally and in the House (on the federal level) before it can reach the Senators and President. People have to be eased in and we have to work to normalize it first because otherwise we may just keep yo-yoing back and forth between two extremes. I'm also not confident Bernie or Warren can get the support to get what they want done either...not in this country.

At least it's not Buttigieg, a person who I am not even sure knows what he even stands for anymore other than he'll support whatever he thinks will get him elected. Of course, if it's a Biden/Buttigieg ticket, that will seriously try my patience.
 

BlueRidge

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The reason to elect Warren is not that she can transform the situation and suddenly implement all the big structural change she proposes. The reason to elect Warren over Biden is that there are many things a president can do that can be more progressive or less progressive. A lot of things the president can do can make a difference and lay the ground work for more future change. Obama saw this but his approach was so glacial that it created no momentum once he left office.

I think the left fails time and again because it sees the presidency as transformational and believes if it can just grab that prize it can win everything it wants. This sets the stage for a lot of disappointment and discouragement for people on the left. Even if Bernie were elected the most we would get is incremental change. Revolution doesn't happen by ballot box, it happens with force and creates more disruption in ordinary people's lives than progress.

I'd like to see a president who takes more action to reduce the power of corporations than Biden likely would. Warren knows how to use the levers of the government in the executive branch to do this. But if Biden wins, the difference between where we are now with Trump and where we can go with a moderate Democrat in the WH is night and day. I see no reason to despair.
 

ballettmaus

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The reason to elect Warren is not that she can transform the situation and suddenly implement all the big structural change she proposes. The reason to elect Warren over Biden is that there are many things a president can do that can be more progressive or less progressive. A lot of things the president can do can make a difference and lay the ground work for more future change.
I agree with everything you wrote. I also think that in our current political climate, we need someone with bold ideas so that by the time a compromise is reached, Democrats/progressives/liberals still get something out of it and we're still moving forward. Biden's ideas are so moderate that I'm afraid that he'd give up more or less everything that Democrats/progressives/liberals would want and/or that we'd not be moving forward but, at best, return to where we were in 2016.
 

PRlady

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Being a centrist today means clinging to a center that the Republicans have moved way to the right. They were experts at making far-right ideas palatable. I want Warren partially because she sees what a cheat-fest this economy has become and says so. If I didn’t think she could accomplish something, all I’d have to do is look at the billionaires and tech giants whining about her and realize that THEY take her seriously.
 

BlueRidge

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I agree with everything you wrote. I also think that in our current political climate, we need someone with bold ideas so that by the time a compromise is reached, Democrats/progressives/liberals still get something out of it and we're still moving forward. Biden's ideas are so moderate that I'm afraid that he'd give up more or less everything that Democrats/progressives/liberals would want and/or that we'd not be moving forward but, at best, return to where we were in 2016.
But that's where organizing to elect people to the House who are more progressive comes in, and where non-electoral movements that can pressure Congress and the president come in. Look at the huge wave that happened in 2018 electing Democrats. Sure some were moderates and some more progressive but its going to take a coalition of moderate and progressives to implement change. And outside pressure, like the youth-led climate movements can really make progress happen.

I worry that people will be so convinced that nothing can happen if Biden is elected that the energy for these efforts will dissipate.

Its all very tricky. I haven't given up on Warren and think we should keep working to win votes for her. OTOH, I got an email from Progressive Change Campaign Committee last night (they support Warren but are part of the peace pact on the left for Warren to give Sanders a pass). It was all about how awful Biden is and pledging not to vote for Biden in the primaries. I found that horribly counter productive. Biden is not the enemy and he may win so seeding this kind of animosity is very dangerous.
 

rfisher

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Regardless of which Democratic candidate might win POTUS, they will influence the courts. Ruth can only hold on so long, bless her. She's doing her part, now we have to do ours. The State Department is in total disarray and needs a Democrat as POTUS and a Secretary of State who will gather his/her employees back into the fold. The intelligence agencies need a POTUS who listens to them and reestablishes their trust. Just look at the chaos that has erupted within crucial agencies over the last three years and every Democratic candidate is light years ahead. Elect the progressive candidate to state legislatures, governorships, mayors, school board members, the HOR and Senate. That's where progressive change will occur. The next POTUS will spend the first two years of their term just trying to undo all the harm Trump has inflicted on this country.
 

el henry

#WeAllWeGot #WeAllWeNeed
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Being a centrist today means clinging to a center that the Republicans have moved way to the right. They were experts at making far-right ideas palatable. I want Warren partially because she sees what a cheat-fest this economy has become and says so. If I didn’t think she could accomplish something, all I’d have to do is look at the billionaires and tech giants whining about her and realize that THEY take her seriously.
I am sorry, fellow native Philadelphian, but I disagree with this. It’s one of the biggest issues I have with those calling themselves “progressive” (I just hate those labels), that they’ve woven a narrative that “centrists” or “moderates” are fools and wimps to be taken advantage of by every Republican who walks down the street:confused:

I despise Donald Trump and his enablers. They’re not even worth being despised, they’re so despicable. and I will in all probability vote for Pete or Joe in the PA primary. I agree with with their positions for the most part, their attitudes, and their plans.

I fail to see where they makes me a “centrist”, I fail to see where it makes me complicit with a Republican agenda, and I’m not sure what that description (to me false, because it’s false as applied to me) gains?
 

Vagabond

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I will add my two cents. I am fine with those Democrats who do calling themselves progressives provided that they don't act as if every Democrat who disagrees with them on some issues is a moderate or conservative. In fact, most Democrats describe themselves as liberal.


#facts
 

BlueRidge

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I think that moderate is an orientation not an ideological position. So there are a lot of moderate liberals who opt for the kind of incrementalism espoused by Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. They are not centrists. I see centrism as an ideology, something exemplified by the organization Third Way.

I veer back and forth between the moderate liberals and the radical left. Sometimes I give myself a headache. 🤪
 

gkelly

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Yes.

I'd be perfectly happy with a future that Warren or even Sanders envisions.

But I don't think it can be imposed in 4 years by a president. It's more about evolving mindsets through the whole country, introducing policies that make sense to deal with immediate issues and with predictable future issues that a majority of citizens can understand and agree with.

And not letting the profits of big industries and big investors determine policy ahead of what benefits all citizens and future generations.

In some cases new laws may precede majority agreement, and other times the legislation follows general attitude changes. It may be a matter of activists convincing lawmakers and members of the executive branch who then convince their colleagues, who then convince their constituency at large.

And I certainly want a president who listens to all knowledge bases and all stakeholders before deciding what policies to champion -- not one who is primarily interested in the voices with the deepest pockets.

But for any major changes, if the president has a vision that is shared by only a minority of the electorate, they first need to make their case for why it's a good idea and not just impose it.

What I definitely don't want is every time we get a Republican administration they impose right-wing policies without consenus (yes, I know that is what we have right now :() followed by imposing of left-wing policies every time a Democratic administration comes to power. Constant reversals of course is not what I want to see.

Make your case, leaders! Get the voters and their representatives to buy into your vision. Find common ground!
 

PrincessLeppard

Holding Alex Johnson's Pineapple
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Radical leftist here who supports changing slowly so as not to scare people, even though I sometimes scream along with Motörhead's "Eat the Rich." :) (Krokus also has a great song called "Eat the Rich." Sometimes when I'm really torqued off, I'll listen to them back to back :p)
 

PRlady

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I am sorry, fellow native Philadelphian, but I disagree with this. It’s one of the biggest issues I have with those calling themselves “progressive” (I just hate those labels), that they’ve woven a narrative that “centrists” or “moderates” are fools and wimps to be taken advantage of by every Republican who walks down the street:confused:

I despise Donald Trump and his enablers. They’re not even worth being despised, they’re so despicable. and I will in all probability vote for Pete or Joe in the PA primary. I agree with with their positions for the most part, their attitudes, and their plans.

I fail to see where they makes me a “centrist”, I fail to see where it makes me complicit with a Republican agenda, and I’m not sure what that description (to me false, because it’s false as applied to me) gains?
I never said centrists are fools or wimps, only that the center has moved right incrementally over time. I’ve known the Third Way guys for 20 years and used to agree with them, I was a DLC Democrat once. But I no longer think incrementalism is the way. Trump has managed to upend a lot of norms, I don’t mind a progressive doing the same to the extent possible.
 
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BlueRidge

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I never said centrists are fools or wimps, only that the center has moved right incrementally over time. I’ve known the Third Way guys for 20 years and used to agree with them, I was a DLC Democrat once. But I no longer think incrementalism is the way. Trump has managed to upend a lot of forms, I don’t mind a progressive doing the same to the extent possible.
:confused: what is it you would like a progressive to do that is like what Trump has done?

I think that we need to get our government working again, not upend it. I think we need good government in order to have a just society.
 

PRlady

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:confused: what is it you would like a progressive to do that is like what Trump has done?

I think that we need to get our government working again, not upend it. I think we need good government in order to have a just society.
I think we need a good government, too, and the pre-Trump version too often failed to live up to that. Without real campaign election reform, an end to revolving-door lobbyists writing legislation, abandonment of both rural and urban poor to neoliberal talking points....we don’t need to restore good governance, we need to re-invent it.
 

BlueRidge

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I think we need a good government, too, and the pre-Trump version too often failed to live up to that. Without real campaign election reform, an end to revolving-door lobbyists writing legislation, abandonment of both rural and urban poor to neoliberal talking points....we don’t need to restore good governance, we need to re-invent it.
I don't see that as anything like what Trump has done.

I see that as reform and its going to require functioning processes to make it happen. To me, Trump has been tearing processes and institutions down, tearing them apart, tearing any trust in democratic processes apart. None of that is what we need. So we do need to restore working government and trust in processes in order to implement long term reforms.
 

PRlady

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But not trust in broken processes. If most Americans hadn’t accurately realized how little influence they had in the political process,we wouldn’t have had Trump in the first place. I don’t want us believing in fairy tales so that we go back to status quo ante.
 

BlueRidge

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But not trust in broken processes. If most Americans hadn’t accurately realized how little influence they had in the political process,we wouldn’t have had Trump in the first place. I don’t want us believing in fairy tales so that we go back to status quo ante.
I don't see what that has to do with doing anything like what Trump has done. Let's also not believe in fairy tales that we got Trump because the system didn't work as opposed to a long-term concerted effort by the rightwing to use propaganda and division and appeal to racial resentment to get a large enough portion of the population supporting them so they could elect reactionaries to dismantle every bit of progress that had ever been made.

This is a really good look at how the rightwing has undertaken this: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/1/16/20991816/impeachment-trial-trump-bannon-misinformation

There are two different things I think people conflate: the reactionary right's efforts to rollback all progress dismantle democracy to try to shore up white supremacy and partriarchy, and the efforts of the corporate elite to skew society to their desires.

You lost me with the original post when you said "Trump has managed to upend a lot of norms, I don’t mind a progressive doing the same to the extent possible." I don't get what you are saying.
 
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Peaches LaTour

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I was really hoping that after Super Tuesday it would be clear which progressive was really leading and the other would graciously cede support. Now I’m not at all sure that will happen: all it’s going to do is give us a Biden-Klobochar ticket. Feh.
Sanders will not concede unless he is being carried out, dead, on a stretcher.

Biden/Klobuchar does nothing for me, either
 

el henry

#WeAllWeGot #WeAllWeNeed
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I never said centrists are fools or wimps, only that the center has moved right incrementally over time. I’ve known the Third Way guys for 20 years and used to agree with them, I was a DLC Democrat once. But I no longer think incrementalism is the way. Trump has managed to upend a lot of norms, I don’t mind a progressive doing the same to the extent possible.
Thank you for answering. I'm not sure I have anything to add to what other posters have said. I do not believe Trump won because he wanted to tear down walls. He gave all my former Southwest Philly peeps an avenue for their worst tendencies, and brought them out to vote.

The DNC is not the enemy. Trump is. And the more Bernie wants to man the barricades singing "One More Day" against fellow Democrats (assuming the man stays a Democrat:rolleyes:,) the less I like him. And the more Liz stands up to him, the more I like her.

Then again, I would vote for Biden/Klobuchar in a heartbeat. Because they are liberals too:)
 

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