January Democratic Debate: Seeking Someone of Unimpeachable Credentials

BlueRidge

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He’d look like he’s scared so I doubt that would happen. But good if it does. A chink in his armor.
With Trump you never know. He might figure he has nothing to lose by refusing.

Or it might just be my wishful thinking. :lol:
 

FunnyBut

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BR,
I honestly wasn’t aware of AOC putting aside sexism for other issues more important to her, either. It runs very counter to my image of her. If she were to run for a larger office, I doubt anyone would/should make this part of a campaign against her. I think sacrificing some priorities for others in just the way of the political world, not that you should agree with someone else’s priorities.
 

Vagabond

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While I agree anyone can/should be challenged for sexism, the motive behind this particular challenge was political gain, not equal rights, and one shouldn’t hide from one’s own campaign strategy.
If we start with the assumption that Warren is telling the truth about the incident in question, then Sanders behavior was nothing less than an attempt to use sexist language for personal gain. What Warren and her staff have done is to call Sanders out for his sexism. Warren's statements and those of her staff are very much a call for equal rights. This situation is akin to all the other #MeToo incidents in which there were only two people present and one has accused the other of sexual harassment, whether in the form of demeaning remarks, insinuations, or attempts to use for sex for power.

(Edited to add in the word "other" because this is what #MeToo is all about.)

BR,
I honestly wasn’t aware of AOC putting aside sexism for other issues more important to her, either. It runs very counter to my image of her. If she were to run for a larger office, I doubt anyone would/should make this part of a campaign against her.
I think you are naive.
 

once_upon

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I’ll admit I have a bias against Warren. Too many times I’ve seen her grandstanding against Obama, CEOs in Senate hearings, grandstanding for the sake of grandstanding, pandering out the cheap shots not so unlike Trump, albeit for a very different position.
I will take your word that Bernie has had gender equality issues in his campaign, though I wasn’t personally aware of it. While I agree anyone can/should be challenged for sexism, the motive behind this particular challenge was political gain, not equal rights, and one shouldn’t hide from one’s own campaign strategy. I agree Warren is definitely not an elitist. I don’t want either of them for president, but if I was drowning I’d want Bernie to save me.
I believe bernie would let us drown.
 

BlueRidge

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BR,
I honestly wasn’t aware of AOC putting aside sexism for other issues more important to her, either. It runs very counter to my image of her. If she were to run for a larger office, I doubt anyone would/should make this part of a campaign against her. I think sacrificing some priorities for others in just the way of the political world, not that you should agree with someone else’s priorities.
That is my judgement of her unqualified support for Sanders.

This is my view having been an activist on the left for many years and seeing Sanders in that context and seeing younger woman who support him seemingly willing to put aside criticisms of him.

And yes, what you choose to put aside is a political judgement and that's just the point. She chooses to support Bernie despite his 2016 campaign and despite there being a very progressive woman candidate who she has worked closely with since being elected to the House. I felt that her endorsement of Sanders harmed Warren's campaign though she didn't intend it to. She choose someone who had demonstrated a lack of concern with the sexist atmosphere in his 2016 campaign over a progressive woman candidate when she could have chosen to stay neutral.

It felt like a sock in the jaw to me. I really thought she would stay neutral.

Yeah its a long story as I'm old. Its not very relevant to younger people I suppose. But its my feelings.
 

rfisher

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As always, I didn't watch--I wouldn't be able to sleep for thinking if I did.

A quick look at the morning media analysis doesn't really show any losers, except maybe Klobuchar only because she didn't break out and needs to.

Looks like no real impact from this debate other than to somewhat calm down the Warren-Sanders conflict.

It seems to me what these debates confirm is that all the candidates are capable. Voters either have to vote for who they like, vote on issues, or look in their crystal ball and vote for who it tells them can win against Trump.
I quit watching them because by the time my state has a primary, the candidates will be down to two, maybe. For all practical purposes, the candidate who will get the nomination will have been decided. And, that's who I'll be voting for. I'll just wait for the debates against Trump.
 

BlueRidge

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I quit watching them because by the time my state has a primary, the candidates will be down to two, maybe. For all practical purposes, the candidate who will get the nomination will have been decided. And, that's who I'll be voting for. I'll just wait for the debates against Trump.
I vote June 2. So yeah...
 

FunnyBut

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Honestly I was also very surprised to see AOC throw her (considerable) weight behind Sanders, biggest progressive bombshell. When someone like her supports Sanders, it is very explicitly and deliberately ‘Sanders over Warren’. Yes, it helped Sanders at the expense of primarily Warren. She could have stayed neutral like Obama, but she didn’t.
I know in your personal judgement you find Sanders old-guard sexist. But perhaps AOC , who knows him very well, sincerely doesn’t find him so? I’m still curious why she deliberately chose one over the other so early. My guess would be that she too finds him to be the true dyed-in-blue progressive.
 
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BlueRidge

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Honestly I was also very surprised to see AOC throw her (considerable) weight behind Sanders. When someone like her supports Sanders, it is very explicitly and deliberately ‘Sanders over Warren’. Yes, it helped Sanders at the expense of primarily Warren. She could have stayed neutral like Obama, but she didn’t.
I know in your personal judgement you find Sanders old-guard sexist. But perhaps AOC , who knows him very well, sincerely doesn’t find him so? I’m still curious why she deliberately chose one over the other so early.
Well I don't find him personally sexist in the sense of how he treats women, obviously I've never met him, but he's also never been accused of anything personal, sexual or otherwise.

My sense of AOC is that its all about the "movement." Bernie is the movement politician, Warren is not. "We are building a movement" that will be the vehicle for all substantive change, I think is how people like AOC see it.

People who have felt left out of past progressive movements due to race, sex, religion, or other group identities may understand my wariness of this.

To me, movement is always plural: there are political movements. They are critically important to change, but are not electoral vehicles. When it becomes singular The Movement, it gives me pause.
 

MacMadame

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Yeah its a long story as I'm old. Its not very relevant to younger people I suppose. But its my feelings.
It's mine too.

So are Sanders' supporters the political version of Fanyus?
It's a very good comparison. Both have normal fans and both have these crazy fans who make the rest of us scratch our heads.

Btw, this is my favorite summary of the debate:


What I want to know is how I missed that there is something called a "Spin Room"?!?!
 

once_upon

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AOC is a Bernie fanatic just like my brother. Willing to overlook anything in order to jump on the Feel the Bern bandwagon. Yes, Bernie has a fanyu type cult and some are normal people who can say they would get behind any candidate who is the nominee. Others not so much, in fact will choose not to vote, like in 2016.
 

agalisgv

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In the CNN post-debate analysis, one pundit said Warren’s team brought up the private convo with Sanders last year to enflame past resentments by certain female Hillary supporters who felt Sanders cost Hillary the election by not campaigning hard enough and downplaying sexism in the primaries and general. It’s a cynical take, but one where you have to ask why team Warren brought it up now when it happened over a year ago. She clearly wanted it addressed in the final debate, and she has slipped in the polls and needs to bolster her numbers going into IA. The person she should have attacked was Biden, but for whatever reason she refuses to take him on and left that to Sanders. Perhaps she’s trying to consolidate progressive support for her by taking out Sanders first, then would go after Biden—idk. But refusing to shake Bernie’s hand afterward wasn’t a good look for progressives.
 

Vagabond

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But refusing to shake Bernie’s hand afterward wasn’t a good look for progressives.
I suppose that you would say that if Gwyneth Paltrow, Mia Sorvino, Angelina Jolie, or Uma Thurman ever refused to shake Harvey Weinstein's hand, that would not be a good look for Hollywood.

The extent to which women fail to support each other on women's issues never ceases to astonish me. So does the extent to which victims of inappropriate behavior get blamed for sticking up for themselves. And don't get me started on clergy.
 

el henry

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I know that there are normal folks who support Bernie, but in my personal universe they are all about the Bern, the System (bad,bad, bad System) and the Movement (good, good, good Movement). And I just can’t....:slinkaway

From what I have seen of his personal actions, if I were drowning, Bernie would step on my gasping-for-air old-lady self to get to shore.

I am still wavering between Uncle Joe and Pete, but this whole business has made me like Liz more. She’s firmly in the top three. Thank God she’s finally taking my advice and taking on the Bernie Bros (because I know she reads this Board and values my advice:lol:). The True Believers will never come to her, and she should stand up to them like the strong woman she is.

I think she did well in the debate and I think Pete did too. Then again, I think debates are like skating comps: I love Jason, and unless he falls down, Jason will always make the best impression. Same for the candidates.

Well, not Uncle Joe, but no one is voting for him for his debate skills;)
 

PRlady

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It's mine too.


It's a very good comparison. Both have normal fans and both have these crazy fans who make the rest of us scratch our heads.

Btw, this is my favorite summary of the debate:


What I want to know is how I missed that there is something called a "Spin Room"?!?!
There’s been a post-debate Spin Room for 40 years. Go read the “Anonymous” book about the Clinton campaign in ‘92.
 

MacMadame

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I wonder why it gets reported on so little. Or maybe the mainstream press doesn't call it the Spin Room?
 

ballettmaus

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I think Bernie gets a pass as a lovable old man that Warren never gets. And I'm rather sick of it.
I agree, although, it's not just Sanders. How many "gaffes" has Biden had? How many times has he already told a story that he's told differently before? How many times has he stretched or embellished the truth? And we're told that this is who he is and it's kind of suggested that it's endearing because it's like a grandpa telling stories.

Of course, we don't know what was said and what wasn't but technically, Biden was fact-checked a number of times and it turned out that things didn't quite happen that way, so technically, he lied. And yet, it's Warren who is immediately under suspicion.
 

BlueRidge

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I agree, although, it's not just Sanders. How many "gaffes" has Biden had? How many times has he already told a story that he's told differently before? How many times has he stretched or embellished the truth? And we're told that this is who he is and it's kind of suggested that it's endearing because it's like a grandpa telling stories.

Of course, we don't know what was said and what wasn't but technically, Biden was fact-checked a number of times and it turned out that things didn't quite happen that way, so technically, he lied. And yet, it's Warren who is immediately under suspicion.
And Biden has been accused of inappropriately touching women, albeit supposedly without sexual intent.

I was focusing on Sanders in this thread because of the particular Warren/Sanders conflict prior to this debate; it certainly is true that Biden has his sexist history and that he gets different treatment than Warren as well.

We have a huge problem right in front of our faces with how women are treated as candidates but sadly that fact gets us right back to the question a lot of people, not just Bernie Sanders, bring up about Warren: can a woman really win? Cue @Vagabond to remind us that Hillary Clinton did win the vote in 2016 but unfortunately that doesn't calm concerns that take a toll on Warren's support.
 

Peaches LaTour

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AOC is a Bernie fanatic just like my brother. Willing to overlook anything in order to jump on the Feel the Bern bandwagon. Yes, Bernie has a fanyu type cult and some are normal people who can say they would get behind any candidate who is the nominee. Others not so much, in fact will choose not to vote, like in 2016.
IMO, AOC is very politically naive in many respects. Her shocking victory over her political opponent might have made her believe she is much more qualified than she really is at the moment. It is a long learning curve & she is only at the beginning of it.
 

DreamSkates

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IMO, AOC is very politically naive in many respects. Her shocking victory over her political opponent might have made her believe she is much more qualified than she really is at the moment. ...
Well it seems we already experienced someone thinking he was qualified and winning a shocking victory.
 

PRlady

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AOC people are generally Bernie people, and he helped her before that spectacular win. This is payback and I must say that it’s more honorable than I expect of any politician. Likewise, Ayanna Presley, who got help from Warren in MA, has endorsed her.
 

agalisgv

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I suppose that you would say that if Gwyneth Paltrow, Mia Sorvino, Angelina Jolie, or Uma Thurman ever refused to shake Harvey Weinstein's hand, that would not be a good look for Hollywood.
Obviously I wouldn’t say that, and I suspect you know that. But last I checked Sanders isn’t accused of raping or sexually assaulting Warren. Rather different, no?

You can’t say in your closing argument you can unify the country (as Warren did), then proceed to refuse to shake the hand of someone who is your closest ideological ally but recalls an event differently than you. If you’re going to be that offended by this, what are you going to say to swing voters and others whose votes you need, but are far less ideologically aligned with you? This is an election after all, and any winning candidate is going to have to absorb a lot of blows from many different sectors. Being able to do that with aplomb and grace are necessities (unless one wishes to emulate Trump, which I don’t think Warren is wanting to do).
 

agalisgv

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The real crux between Warren and Sanders was Team Sanders instructed his volunteers to go negative on Warren, and this violated their pledge to not attack each other (from Warren’s perspective). It didn’t help that Sanders initially denied the attacks and his team blamed it on a Trump infiltrator. Only later was it confirmed the attacks against Warren were authorized.



This is probably why Warren leaked the private convo—as retaliation. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander....
 

Vagabond

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Obviously I wouldn’t say that, and I suspect you know that. But last I checked Sanders isn’t accused of raping or sexually assaulting Warren. Rather different, no?

In context, Sanders' statement that he did not believe a woman could win sounds like an attempt to pressure Warren into not running because she was a woman. Had this happened in some other work environment than a conversation between two Senators, it might have been actionable as sexual harassment. It would not be subject to criminal penalties as rape or sexual assault would be, but then again, rape and sexual assault do form the basis of civil liability.

I sure hope you don't advise women come to you as their pastor to shake hands with anyone who has sexually harassed them.
 

el henry

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Obviously I wouldn’t say that, and I suspect you know that. But last I checked Sanders isn’t accused of raping or sexually assaulting Warren. Rather different, no?

You can’t say in your closing argument you can unify the country (as Warren did), then proceed to refuse to shake the hand of someone who is your closest ideological ally but recalls an event differently than you. If you’re going to be that offended by this, what are you going to say to swing voters and others whose votes you need, but are far less ideologically aligned with you? This is an election after all, and any winning candidate is going to have to absorb a lot of blows from many different sectors. Being able to do that with aplomb and grace are necessities (unless one wishes to emulate Trump, which I don’t think Warren is wanting to do).
As everyone on this board is sick of hearing me say, I am a swing voter in a swing county in a swing state :D (in fact the New York Times just had an article about how swinging we are on the front page of the business section yesterday. Swing swing swing :lol:).

Right now, I will probably vote for Joe or Pete in the primary but I do not find this action from Liz offputting. So there is at least one “moderate” (I don’t like those kinds of terms which is why I have it in quotation marks) Democrat who is not alienated by it at all.🤔
 

MacMadame

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Women are supposed to be polite no matter what. Including to people who have done them wrong (like calling them a liar in public). F' that.
 

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