James Comey Fired

BlueRidge

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I don't believe there are going to be any impeachment proceedings, but I'm glad the Dems will continue to investigate and document. I'm not sanguine about Trump actually caring though. He'll just use it as an opportunity to challenge more norms and undermine the power of the legislative branch.
 

skatesindreams

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29,362
Leading House Democrats interviewed on NPR this week have been saying that impeachment is not off the table, but they want the House to do the investigations before instituting any such proceedings. Since what is known now is impeachment-worthy to some but not to many others, this strikes me as the best way to proceed.
This speaks for me; especially since the Senate would be unlikely to convict, unless something incontrovertible and even more damning than what we now know were discovered.
Keep investigating; with the hope of being able to prosecute him in the future.
 

Reuven

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One thing to bear in mind, an impeachment inquiry gives the Judiciary Committee Article 3 powers. This would enable them to really shine a bright light into dark recesses of The Regime for all to see. Yes, the Republican Senate would not convict, but they would have to try to defend the indefensible. I worry that not using the big gun of impeachment will signal that criminality in the Oval Office will be given a pass. The rule of law is under threat, Dems must fight that with every weapon at their disposal. I say Dems because Repubs are part of the problem.
 

BlueRidge

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This quote from Trump gets at the heart of how the Dems are being manipulated regarding "partisanship"

“There is no reason to go any further, and especially in Congress where it’s very partisan – obviously very partisan,” Trump told the Post. “I don’t want people testifying to a party, because that is what they’re doing if they do this.”
Of course if only Dems investigate and move to impeachment then it is portrayed as entirely partisan. So all Republicans have to do is refuse to participate and Dems have no way to do anything that isn't "partisan." Of course this could be called out as the Reps being totally partisan but in our through-the-looking-glass-world the Reps have successfully turned everything inside out so that when only Dems care about being seen as partisan then Reps have a veto over the Dems doing anything simply by refusing to participate.

And yet Dems are afraid to be seen as partisan so all the caution caution caution, until something comes out that will convince Republicans that Trump should be challenged... and nothing will ever convince them of that... because Trump has a complete veto over them--they fear he will just crush them if they stand up to him.

How do we get out of this?
 

ballettmaus

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One thing to bear in mind, an impeachment inquiry gives the Judiciary Committee Article 3 powers. This would enable them to really shine a bright light into dark recesses of The Regime for all to see. Yes, the Republican Senate would not convict, but they would have to try to defend the indefensible.
This is why it frustrates me that they're shying away from impeachment. They're not supposed to vote on impeachment, they're supposed to start the inquiry. Trump is currently blocking all of their investigations. They're going to be tied up in court fights and we'll likely have a repeat of 2016 before they get anywhere. But an impeachment inquiry gives them different tools to work with and blocking an oversight investigation is something entirely different from blocking an impeachment inquiry.


How do we get out of this?
One solution would be hiring a political PR firm who can help them sell it. The other option would be to get Fox News to somehow give up it's propaganda status. But the question is, is any of it really necessary? The few Republicans who still have integrity don't see it as partisan because they see Trump for who he is and Trump supporters have seen it as partisan from the start. So, do Democrats really have that much to loose in that regard?


And, apparently, the Stable Genius thinks impeachment can be blocked by the Supreme Court. https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1121023509029892096
If the partisan Dems ever tried to Impeach, I would first head to the U.S. Supreme Court.
 

BlueRidge

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One solution would be hiring a political PR firm who can help them sell it. The other option would be to get Fox News to somehow give up it's propaganda status. But the question is, is any of it really necessary? The few Republicans who still have integrity don't see it as partisan because they see Trump for who he is and Trump supporters have seen it as partisan from the start. So, do Democrats really have that much to loose in that regard?
If the Dems believed in themselves they could do it. But they are afraid, they don't believe in themselves, they subconsciously believe the notion that "Trump country" is the real America and they are afraid of it.

Thus the learned helplessness that had them unprepared for Barr's usurpation of the release of the results of the Mueller report and again unprepared for the actual release. Responding by saying "We are going to be cautious" was, is, and ever will be a losing strategy. They may preserve their status as the adults in the room as far as very serious people are concerned, but that won't help the country.
 

caseyedwards

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Democrats must do impeachment because any republican senator who voted to acquit trump would lose reelection because of the extraordinary hatred of they American people for trump! Polls are clear. The American people hate trump. Think he’s a criminal. Any republican senators who voted to acquit him would lose reelection
 

Vash01

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This quote from Trump gets at the heart of how the Dems are being manipulated regarding "partisanship"



Of course if only Dems investigate and move to impeachment then it is portrayed as entirely partisan. So all Republicans have to do is refuse to participate and Dems have no way to do anything that isn't "partisan." Of course this could be called out as the Reps being totally partisan but in our through-the-looking-glass-world the Reps have successfully turned everything inside out so that when only Dems care about being seen as partisan then Reps have a veto over the Dems doing anything simply by refusing to participate.

And yet Dems are afraid to be seen as partisan so all the caution caution caution, until something comes out that will convince Republicans that Trump should be challenged... and nothing will ever convince them of that... because Trump has a complete veto over them--they fear he will just crush them if they stand up to him.

How do we get out of this?
Democrats have all the tools to deal with the Trump problem the country has, but they want to be nice, right, and they end up being weak. They don’t learn from their failures. I am close to giving up on them. I like Nancy Pelosi but I believe she is wrong in this case. Dems need to be aggressive. They have the facts, the law, but they just don’t understand the problem. I remember that in the first year of Obama presidency, Obama believed he could negotiate with the reps and compromise. When he realized they were never going to work with him, he took matters in his own hands. He was criticized for it of course by the republicans but he got some things done despite the resistance.

Democrats need to stop being wimpy, take matters in their own hands, and crush those who are not letting them do their job.

As a citizen I feel hopeless. What if the public started calling their democratic representatives and pressure them to be tough and get it done by using their power to impeach? It will make them look strong and principled instead of weak and scared.

Repubs keep ignoring the subpoenas from Dems. How long are they going to let these people ignore the law and get away with it? Put them in jail. If Trump pardons them it will just show how corrupt he is. Enough of trying to work with those who refuse to work for them and for the country. Dems actually have a responsibility toward the country, and not taking the right action means they are not doing their job. So impeach, impeach, impeach. Sooner the better. The public doesn’t understand why the investigations are needed after the Mueller report was published. A big step like starting the impeachment proceedings will attract attention, and that will help.

Trump cannot be removed but at least the truth will come out for the public to see. That could decide who sits in the WH next. Inaction will guarantee that it will be Trump.
 

Vash01

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Just received from Amazon my copy of the redacted Mueller report and a small book ‘Impeachment’ by Charles L. Black, Jr. It is a handbook,explaining rules, procedures. The Mueller report has over 700 pages. It will keep me busy for a long time.
 

Vash01

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I am watching Ari Melber on msnbc. They are discussing a WaPo report. It seems Rod Rosenstein promised Trump that he will ‘land the plane ‘. The investigation was rigged.
 

skateboy

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Democrats must do impeachment because any republican senator who voted to acquit trump would lose reelection because of the extraordinary hatred of they American people for trump! Polls are clear. The American people hate trump. Think he’s a criminal. Any republican senators who voted to acquit him would lose reelection
No, no impeachment. Here's an excellent video explaining why not: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/04/23/lockhart_dont_try_to_impeach_trump_he_will_hold_rally_after_rally_saying_congress_found_me_innocent.html

I think this guy is 100% correct.
 

Reuven

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The polls say the majority of America doesn't agree with impeachment.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/majority-of-americans-oppose-impeachment-but-majority-also-says-trump-lied-to-public/2019/04/26/116869ca-66d8-11e9-a1b6-b29b90efa879_story.html?utm_term=.e75c137152b5

Given that, I think the Dems are doing their best to hold him accountable without crossing over into angering the general public.
Not yet. But if the House pursues an impeachment inquiry, with televised hearings and all that, that number should go up like it did in the Watergate hearings—19% before hearings, and hit 57% just before Nixon resigned.
 

ballettmaus

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It's certainly a valid point. But they're politicians. I'm sure they know how to hold hearings and bring out every criminal and colluding detail about Trump and his campaign without having to schedule a vote before the election. There is also a sliver of a chance that the hearings would unearth things so that even Republicans can't deny what is happening anymore.
 

Vash01

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Not yet. But if the House pursues an impeachment inquiry, with televised hearings and all that, that number should go up like it did in the Watergate hearings—19% before hearings, and hit 57% just before Nixon resigned.
The impeachment inquiry should also enable them to bring in the open some of the things Barr is hiding.

Rosenstein should be subpoenaed by the Congress, in the light of the most recent discovery “I will land the plane”. This must be a code in the Trump team. Barr used the same phrase. I am disappointed in Rosenstein. He has no integrity. He joined the Trump team to save his job. It sounds like he was afraid of being fired in a tweet and the public humiliation.

The Judiciary Committee is going to question Barr this Wed and Thurs. seems like a waste of time because he will just refuse to answer the questions. Maybe this is just a ‘Follow the procedure’ thing? I can’t wait to hear from Mueller.
 
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ballettmaus

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A brief analysis of the obstruction of justice charges against a Massachusetts judge and court officer. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/04/obstruction-case-william-barr-doj-donald-trump.html


For example, in June, Barr wrote a memo as a private citizen arguing that obstruction laws should not “reach facially-lawful actions taken by the President in exercising the discretion vested in him by the Constitution.” Yet that is exactly what the obstruction-of-justice charges against Joseph and MacGregor cover.

...

And the state judge’s motive shouldn’t matter to the analysis because under Barr’s theory of obstruction, government officials can’t be charged with obstruction “based solely on his subjective state of mind” for “simply exercising his discretion in a facially lawful way.”
I really hope the judge has a good lawyer who uses that precedent Barr so kindly set and makes it come back to bite Barr. After all, we're all supposed to be equal in front of the law, right?!
 

Vash01

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ballettmaus

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Schiff made a criminal referral to the DOJ for Erik Prince. They are also looking into Don Jr and Kushner's congressional testimonies to see if they lied. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/schiff-says-house-will-make-a-criminal-referral-of-trump-ally-erik-prince-for-possible-perjury/2019/04/30/fca8a4de-6b49-11e9-a66d-a82d3f3d96d5_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_schiffprince-946am:homepage/story-ans&utm_term=.508a20c96bfb

On the one hand, I think it's good that they do. On the other, I'd be very surprised if it led anywhere. They lied, nothing will happen and others know they can lie without consequences as well. The whole system is so not cut out for a corrupt President :(
 

BittyBug

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sk9tingfan

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And the leaking begins! Mueller apparently wasn't happy with Barr's 4 page letter summarizing the report, and wrote Barr a letter so stating. :shuffle:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/mueller-complained-that-barrs-letter-did-not-capture-context-of-trump-probe/2019/04/30/d3c8fdb6-6b7b-11e9-a66d-a82d3f3d96d5_story.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/30/us/politics/mueller-barr.html

Do you think anyone will ask Barr about this during the Senate hearings tomorrow? :saint:
This is why Barr doesn't want to be questioned by staff lawyers who are seasoned prosecutors; he can't filibuster them
 

Susan1

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And the leaking begins! Mueller apparently wasn't happy with Barr's 4 page letter summarizing the report, and wrote Barr a letter so stating. :shuffle:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/mueller-complained-that-barrs-letter-did-not-capture-context-of-trump-probe/2019/04/30/d3c8fdb6-6b7b-11e9-a66d-a82d3f3d96d5_story.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/30/us/politics/mueller-barr.html

Do you think anyone will ask Barr about this during the Senate hearings tomorrow? :saint:
I wonder if this is why Rosenstein just resigned in that love letter to trump. He knew this was coming?
 

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