James Comey Fired

aftershocks

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Fact is, the IC has found that Russia helped Trump with the goal to defeat Clinton.
Can you imagine the gnashing of teeth, and the amount of fur flying throughout the halls of Congress had there existed even a shred of evidence (not this ocean's worth on Trump & crew) that the Clintons had the gall and the vile culpability to transgress our Constitution and our country by colluding against a presidential opponent to win the WH?!

We would never ever hear the end of it! For all time and into perpetuity, it would be about the gall and nefariousness of the Clintons. In any case, the Clintons' relative decency and patriotism doesn't stop us hearing in perpetuity about their over-exaggerated flaws and mistakes, even in their defeat. :rolleyes:
 

Susan1

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Can you imagine the gnashing of teeth, and the amount of fur flying throughout the halls of Congress had there existed even a shred of evidence (not this ocean's worth on Trump & crew) that the Clintons had the gall and the vile culpability to transgress our Constitution and our country by colluding against a presidential opponent to win the WH?!

We would never ever hear the end of it! For all time and into perpetuity, it would be about the gall and nefariousness of the Clintons. In any case, the Clintons' relative decency and patriotism doesn't stop us hearing in perpetuity about their over-exaggerated flaws and mistakes, even in their defeat. :rolleyes:
I heard this morning that his followers were still yelling lock her up at Maralago last night. Geez Louise. Everybody else in the world should be yelling lock Jared and Ivanka up.
 

ballettmaus

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Op-ed reminding us why we don't need the Mueller report to know that Russia helped Trump into the presidency https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/03/without-mueller-report-congress-already-had-facts/585616/


A short (and old) look at why "collusion" is hard to proof and not necessarily a crime (I guess, that explains why Carter Page was not indicted) https://www.justsecurity.org/49682/collusion-criminal-threat/

https://www.justsecurity.org/44183/expect-indictments-russia-probe-counterintelligence-prosecutorial-interests-meet/


ETA: The internet says that Barr will brief Congress tonight and the Barr report will be made available to the MSM after Congress gets it. How much will that mean though since he said he wouldn't release anything about uncharged individuals?
 
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Vash01

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It sounds like Mueller’s hands were tied. This report makes no sense at all. There are numerous instances showing connections between Russia and Trump’s campaign.

How can Mueller say there was no obstruction?

Trump essentially bought this result by appointing the AGs who would not let Mueller do his job.

The democrats should subpoena Mueller to get all the answers.

Trump must be delirious with joy, and saying this was a witch hunt and he won.

I am disgusted beyond words.:angryfire

It will be tough to impeach now. :(
 

aftershocks

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They are wimps. Quite clearly Trump is corrupt, and he intentionally wanted Comey to look away from Flynn's lies and go lenient on him. That is an attempt to obstruct justice, even though Trump failed because Comey didn't cooperate. And it's looking like they don't want us to see exactly the points that Mueller laid out in his report. This is not over yet. It's also clear that people connected to Trump and even Trump himself had ties with Russia.

Are the majority of American people going to stand by and shrug this away? The Republicans are cowards.

If Trump wasn't in office, he'd be in handcuffs and facing prosecution in New York a long time ago!
 
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ballettmaus

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aftershocks

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The question is whether or not Republican officials are hedging their bets while Trump remains in office (and because they are worried about him and his supporters). Maybe something will occur down the road to prevent Trump from running again, but the thinking might be to avoid an impeachment process which is not actually good for the country. Bill Clinton and all Democratic presidents would have already been impeached for just one of the hundreds of lies Trump has blatantly told over the course of his past two years in office.

Did you guys see the clip Bill Maher showed on Friday of a foolish woman at a 'Build-the-Wall' rally in Cincinnati, Ohio, held by Bannon? This stupid but dangerous woman boldly said: "Never in my life did I think I would like to see a dictator. But if there's going to be one, I want it to be Trump."

Is this the kind of blind, foolish support of Trump that some people in Washington are so afraid of???
See the woman here at about 23:42, after Maher gives a description:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8VfcuuieV4
As Maher notes, other participants actually applauded this crap, but we don't get to hear that portion of the clip.

Also PBS Frontline aired a broadcast on Friday, detailing the highlights of what precipitated the Mueller appointment, and all of the lowlights thereafter. Trump has been combative and belligerent throughout the Mueller investigation. And they're planning to let him get away with that too!? The fact he met with those Russian officials after firing Comey is highly suspicious and inappropriate, not to mention a whole host of other things that by now some people might be forgetting, or wishing to forget. So refresh your memories:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMl36wCRZaY
 

aftershocks

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Apparently there are many citizens who are fatigued by the nonstop tweets, lies, belligerent byplay and ongoing ridiculous drama in D.C. Distraction, fatigue, and above all, FEAR, are part of what Trumpster is banking on. That's probably why the title of Woodward's book on Trump's WH is entitled, FEAR.

ETA:
Whoa, do you see Trumptard making a braying announcement about 'No Collusion; No Obstruction' and 'Full Exoneration,' when we know the Barr letter didn't say all that. And still, unsurprisingly, Trump whines about them not investigating 'the other side.' We know he's referencing Hillary. With this glaring and angry gloating, Trump condemns himself! What an idiot.
 
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FiveRinger

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Apparently there are many citizens who are fatigued by the nonstop tweets, lies, belligerent byplay and ongoing ridiculous drama in D.C. Distraction, fatigue, and above all, FEAR, are part of what Trumpster is banking on. That's probably why the title of Woodward's book on Trump's WH is entitled, FEAR.

ETA:
Whoa, do you see Trumptard making a braying announcement about 'No Collusion; No Obstruction' and 'Full Exoneration,' when we know the Barr letter didn't say all that. And still, unsurprisingly, Trump whines about them not investigating 'the other side.' We know he's referencing Hillary. With this glaring and angry gloating, Trump condemns himself! What an idiot.
What else did you expect? Of course this is what the orange buffoon was going to say. That's been his mantra for the past 2 years.

The Dems are not going to stop until they get every sheet of paper that has ever been submitted to anywhere, including evidence, the report, etc. And they should. This is a bunch of BS. It makes me think that the entire investigation was a complete waste of taxpayer dollars, just like the investigation into Hillary's emails was a supreme waste of time, energy, and money. How is everybody surrounding Trump dirty but Trump? Even his family, who I have no doubt were full participants, are guilty of wrong doing. Like someone so eloquently said, this is just the end of the beginning, because I don't see an end anytime soon.
 

Susan1

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It sounds like Mueller’s hands were tied. This report makes no sense at all. There are numerous instances showing connections between Russia and Trump’s campaign.
The moron went on t.v. and told Lester Holt that he fired Comey because of the "Rusher" thing. Because he didn't want to be proven innocent? That was enough right there. How about "Russia, if you're listening............." That's two. I know, the dotard always lies, so saying those things were lies too? I'm just disgusted beyond belief, more than usual.
 

aftershocks

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What else did you expect? Of course this is what the orange buffoon was going to say. That's been his mantra for the past 2 years.

The Dems are not going to stop until they get every sheet of paper that has ever been submitted to anywhere, including evidence, the report, etc. And they should. This is a bunch of BS. It makes me think that the entire investigation was a complete waste of taxpayer dollars, just like the investigation into Hillary's emails was a supreme waste of time, energy, and money. How is everybody surrounding Trump dirty but Trump? Even his family, who I have no doubt were full participants, are guilty of wrong doing. Like someone so eloquently said, this is just the end of the beginning, because I don't see an end anytime soon.
^^ Yes, indeed. I simply try to avoid even looking and listening to the a-hole. But I made an exception this time. I was struck by how accurate Alec Baldwin's impersonations are of Trumptard. Yuk! :scream:
 

Vash01

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Now I must put my faith in the States, SDNY, etc. This man is guilty and he and his family must be held accountable for their dirty deeds.
 
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ballettmaus

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So that is it. No evidence of collusion or obstruction and Trump Inc is in the clear.
I'd argue that none of that is actually what Mueller said.

Mueller left the question of obstruction open and Barr said there's no obstruction. But Barr thinks a President can't obstruct anyway, so that seems to have been a foregone conclusion.

Barr's letter said that the probe "did not establish" that Trump or members of his campaign conspired or coordinated with Russia. Does that mean that it didn't happen or simply that Mueller found nothing that proved that it happened? What it definitely does not do is answer why so many Trump people met with Russians and why they all lied about it.
There are a couple of links in my post 2,585 that address how difficult it is to prove intelligence cases and that most of the time what happens is not illegal.
I believe that is why Democrats are arguing so fiercely to see the full report.


Mueller also concluded that Trump didn't commit a crime but stated that it does not exonerate him.
Some opinions on that https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/03/24/trump-mueller-legal-226111


Here's what I found to be an interesting op-ed by someone arguing (back in 2017) that a Special Prosecutor was the wrong choice https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/a-special-prosecutor-is-not-the-answer/526662/


A few opinions/thoughts (among them, Barr used 4 quotes and they all were partial quotes, the rest were his interpretations).
https://twitter.com/AriMelber/status/1109910714288873472

https://twitter.com/waltshaub/status/1109906361524068352

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/03/mueller-report-leaves-one-key-question-unanswered/585625/


Mueller apparently considered subpoenaing Trump and deliberated with DOJ officials about it https://twitter.com/PamelaBrownCNN/status/1109941918056792064


I'm kinda feeling like we know as much as we did before Mueller investigated. I still have the same questions. (And there are still a dozen investigations into Trump, so, I'd say he's not in the clear by any means.)
 

caseyedwards

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I didn’t think trump should be impeached for things that might be true but things that were established fact!!!! Things like trump tower meeting, firing comey, hiring Flynn, etc etc
 

Vash01

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I am watching Ari Melber’s coverage of today’s News. Some fireworks. A former special prosecutor (Clinton era) was defending Barr. I think Barr Is corrupt, though I was hoping all along that he had integrity.

Why is Ari interviewing Trump supporters?

“Today Mueller is Trump’s best friend.”. A woman on the show said this. I understand her frustration but I wouldn’t put all the blame on Mueller. He did a very difficult job, with the deck stacked against him, in a professional way. I do believe that he was not allowed to do it to perfection.

I feel really awful and hopeless today. Can we really have confidence in Congress to get the truth out? They were not able to achieve anything against Trump. He always wins. Further investigation is going to motivate his base even more.

This has to be the worst day in the history of our country. Truth is suppressed. Lie is accepted as the truth. :(
 
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ballettmaus

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I didn’t think trump should be impeached for things that might be true but things that were established fact!!!! Things like trump tower meeting, firing comey, hiring Flynn, etc etc
You want to impeach him only for things that are established facts and then you mention a meeting he wasn't part of and we don't know if he knew of?
 

Meredith

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What I appreciate about Melber's coverage is that he includes those who may not agree with me or you. I find it important to listen to all sides.
 

ballettmaus

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What I appreciate about Melber's coverage is that he includes those who may not agree with me or you. I find it important to listen to all sides.
I think it depends on who the other side is. If the person is sane and sticks to fact then fine. If they distort facts and/or lie then no, thank you.



Barr's letter said that the probe "did not establish" that Trump or members of his campaign conspired or coordinated with Russia. Does that mean that it didn't happen or simply that Mueller found nothing that proved that it happened?
Quoting myself because it can apparently mean either https://twitter.com/JoyceWhiteVance/status/1110012474697441282
 

aftershocks

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Mueller left the question of obstruction open and Barr said there's no obstruction. But Barr thinks a President can't obstruct anyway, so that seems to have been a foregone conclusion.
Exactly. And the tv pundits are falling all over themselves trying to parse meaning out of a couple of Mueller quotes and carefully crafted language by Barr, a Trump appointee and already a known disbeliever in presidents being held liable for obstruction of justice.

Also, the fact is we know that Don Jr. said he 'loved it' when offered by Russian operatives to be given 'dirt on Hillary Clinton.' What is that if not dubious, conspiratorial behavior?

.. [Trump] wasn't part of and we don't know if he knew of?
Cohen provided an eyewitness account linking Trump to likely having knowledge of the meeting since Cohen was with Trump when he took a phone call from Don Jr. on the day of the meeting. Who actually believes that Trump was not aware of Don Jr.'s contact with Russians who promised to provide 'dirt on Hillary Clinton?' Come on!

So much sturm and drang and distraction has been going on, most people have lost their wits, or are too afraid of saying something publicly that big baddie Trump might lash out at them about. The fact that Trump actually used his supposed control of the U.S. military as a not so veiled threat recently, and absolutely nothing has been done about it is not only disturbing, it's frightening. Does no one have the balls to stand up to Trump besides Nancy Pelosi and the congressional Democrats?
 

ballettmaus

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Also, the fact is we know that Don Jr. said he 'loved it' when offered by Russian operatives to be given 'dirt on Hillary Clinton.' What is that if not dubious, conspiratorial behavior?
That's why so many former FBI and CIA officials say that "collusion" is hard to prosecute because simply saying that you love something isn't a crime.

It's also why I assume "establish" can mean there's evidence just not enough to prosecute.


Cohen provided an eyewitness account linking Trump to likely having knowledge of the meeting since Cohen was with Trump when he took a phone call from Don Jr. on the day of the meeting. Who actually believes that Trump was not aware of Don Jr.'s contact with Russians who promised to provide 'dirt on Hillary Clinton?' Come on!

So much sturm and drang and distraction has been going on, most people have lost their wits, or are too afraid of saying something publicly that big baddie Trump might lash out at them about. The fact that Trump actually used his supposed control of the U.S. military as a not so veiled threat recently, and absolutely nothing has been done about it is not only disturbing, it's frightening. Does no one have the balls to stand up to Trump besides Nancy Pelosi and the congressional Democrats?
The poster was saying that Trump shouldn't be impeached for something he might have done though. So far, there is no corroboration that Trump knew, just the statement of Cohen. I found him credible, still, I don't consider it to be a fact, just a strong possibility that Trump knew.
 

Vash01

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Ari Melber took the high road in suggesting that we have to accept the result of the investigation whether we like it or not.

I tend to disagree with that. If this was a normal investigation against a normal person (I dare say, like Nixon) we can accept the results. However Trump is not a normal person. He is a proven liar. IMO Mueller blundered when he allowed him to submit written answers instead of putting him under oath. He should have subpoenaed him, even if it meant getting fired (the firing could have proven the obstruction of justice).

This investigation was normal as long as Rosenstein was in charge. As soon as Whitaker was brought in, everyone should have seen what game Trump was playing. Barr was less obvious in his allegiance to Trump but from what I saw on tv, Barr had already said before he was appointed AG that he would not look into obstruction. That should have been a red flag.

The investigation was rigged from the start. If Mueller did something that would expose Trump, he would have been fired. Trump’s pal McConnell refused to protect Mueller. He was severely restricted in what he could do. So it is not surprising that he could not find proof beyond a reasonable doubt (legally required).

Trump is blowing his horn now, saying ‘I have been completely exonerated’- a lie of course, but what else can we expect from a pathological liar? It will be harder to defeat him in 2020. Whatever the Dems do to get to the truth will be either blocked (by Barr/Trump) or will be used against them, even though Mueller did not exonerate Trump. This will be an uphill battle.

I agree with David Corn. He said the democrats should not have depended entirely on the Mueller report. I remember that every time someone suggested an investigation into something, the Dems said we should wait for the Mueller report. How could they not see what was going on?

They are going to ask for the complete report, but I am afraid it will not help. If Mueller concluded that there was no collusion, after he got indictments for major players in Trump’s campaign and yet came to that conclusion, I don’t know who we can trust anymore. There were meetings with Russians during the campaign, Trump asked Russia to find Hillary’s emails and they complied, meetings at Trump tower- all these things are public knowledge. How could he not draw logical conclusions is beyond me.:wall:

It also means that Russia is free to interfere in the 2020 elections now. If there was no collusion, no safeguards will be placed. Trump will continue to do what Putin wants him to do.

At this point I think we are doomed. Trump has a much better chance of winning in 2020 than he did a week ago and possibly a better chance he did in 2016. :(
 

ballettmaus

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Ari Melber took the high road in suggesting that we have to accept the result of the investigation whether we like it or not.
What that means at this point is to accept that Mueller found no charge-able evidence for conspiracy or cooperation.


They are going to ask for the complete report, but I am afraid it will not help. If Mueller concluded that there was no collusion, after he got indictments for major players in Trump’s campaign and yet came to that conclusion, I don’t know who we can trust anymore.
He didn't conclude that there was no collusion. He didn't establish that there was evidence of it. Like I posted above, that can mean either there was no evidence at all or simply not enough evidence to charge someone.
If you have time, have a look at some of the (non-twitter) links I posted in post 2,585 and 2,598. I found them really helpful :)
 

Vash01

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I have been watching msnbc most of the day, with a little CNN mixed in. Although they are trying to analyze the situation, it does not being me comfort.
 

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