ISU Council's Proposal to change Rule 108 - Age Limits for Single & Pair Skating / Ice Dance + ISU Medical Commission's report

screech

Well-Known Member
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7,066
LMAO! That sounds like something my grandmother would have tried if she were alive today. One of her daughters was born 1 day before the school's deadline and, sure as heck, she put her in school that year. She also had, by that point, 5 kids and wanted 3 of them in school, lol.
This has always bugged me. I always thought there should be a month wiggle room on either end. Say the cut-off is December 31. For children born in both December and in January, there should be a choice between when to start school (some December babies might not be ready, but some born in January might be).
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
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14,241
Have you ever seen a baseball star break a bat in frustration? A football star doing a long dance in the end zone? The camera following a tennis player who double-faulted? That thrill of victory and agony of defeat is intrinsic to sports.
I've always been sad that I didn't get to see Denis Ten's initial reaction to learning that he had won the Olympic bronze medal.

I'm not a fan of the couch. I think in such an important moment, it is nicer for the athletes to be with their own team. But I do like to see the skaters' reactions to learning that they have medaled or won.
 

Bouffantrex

Banned Member
Messages
266
Both the kiss & cry and leader's couch are both integral to figure skating. It would be foolhearty to abolish either.

And I feel disgusted with my own self watching it, much like I did during the women's event at the Olympics.

Fortunately, with the recently enacted age rules, we will not have a repeat of that at the next Olympics. And, fingers crossed, any Russians competing will be clean.
 

giselle23

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1,729
The figure skating season has always started on July 1. That is why skaters have to meet whatever the age limit is before that date. I presume they settled on 17 because they know that the majority of skaters will be 18 by the time worlds/ Olympics comes around. If they are not 18 at that time, they will only be 3 to 4 months from their 18th birthday. Thank goodness. I’m tired of seeing children in elite, senior level sport. Sports like gymnastics have their age deadline by December 31 because their new season starts on January 1. I would love to see gymnastics go from requiring gymnasts to turn 16 in the calendar year to turning 17. This would at least eliminate having 15–year-olds at the Olympics. No more of this “protected person” garbage as far as WADA is concerned. If someone is too young to be responsible for what is put into their body as far as illegal drugs/performance enhancing drugs, they are absolutely too young to compete in elite competition.
I don't really see what difference the so-called start of the season makes (are there any competitions in July?). If 18 is the desired age, make it 18 by 12/31. Whether it's 7/1 or 12/31, there aren't going to be any 15 year olds at the Olympics anymore. And that is definitely a good thing.
 

tony

The older, the crankier
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13,490
Fortunately, with the recently enacted age rules, we will not have a repeat of that at the next Olympics. And, fingers crossed, any Russians competing will be clean.
We don't know that. Trusova would've been 17 by July 1 of last year anyways, and it's not as if all less than graceful podium/k&c moments of the past came from young teens ;)

I don't really see what difference the so-called start of the season makes (are there any competitions in July?). If 18 is the desired age, make it 18 by 12/31. Whether it's 7/1 or 12/31, there aren't going to be any 15 year olds at the Olympics anymore. And that is definitely a good thing.
Because skaters would start the season in juniors and then in early January they would have to get the senior minimums? It makes perfect sense to start it July 1 because it's in the middle of the off-season and essentially the halfway date of the calendar year (and as Sylvia pointed out below, there is an international in late-July).
 

carriecmu0503

Well-Known Member
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495
I don't really see what difference the so-called start of the season makes (are there any competitions in July?). If 18 is the desired age, make it 18 by 12/31. Whether it's 7/1 or 12/31, there aren't going to be any 15 year olds at the Olympics anymore. And that is definitely a good thing.
Because like others have said, it would make no sense to have an age change in the middle of the figure skating season. Junior and senior competition rules are very different, and it would be very hard for people to get the senior minimums in the middle of the season if they had to start the year as juniors. It’s clear the ISU no longer wants minors competing as seniors, but had they made it be 18 as of July 1, many skaters would have to actually wait until they’re 19 to compete at worlds/Olympics. Honestly, I would’ve been OK if they would’ve made the age 18 by July 1. That would’ve kept minors out of the senior circuit all together, which I think is what should actually be done!
 

Seerek

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5,679
Interesting that another winter sports federation FIS (alpine/freestyle/cross country/ski jumping/snowboard) uses the December 31st cutoff for senior age eligibility.

For 2022 Beijing Olympic eligibility in ski/snowboard, you had to be 15 by December 31st 2006.
 

Japanfan

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25,310
I personally think that Michelle “I’m just here to have fun” Kwan fostered unrealistic expectations with regard to how skater should feel about wins and losses, and with regard to the level of restraint one is supposed to display in K&C. And I love her you know.

It's not fair to single out Kwan her?

Many, many skaters say "I just want to have fun out there", or something similar. It actually gets quite tedious.
 

Nadya

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621
Oh, come on... It's part of the drama of any sport - the reactions to a great play or scores. We see it when divers and gymnasts are waiting for their marks, we see teams celebrating on the sidelines or tumbling out of the dugout when a clutch touchdown, three-pointer or home run happens. Take away the KnC and you make the sport even less interesting or relatable to the public. Everyone understands and knows that sigh of relief that Isabeau Levito gave when her marks came up in the FS at Jr Worlds and she stayed in the lead. Everyone understands and appreciates the "aw shucks" humility of Nathan, even when Raf was raising their fists victoriously in Beijing. It's human emotion at it's very best - and, in the case of the Russian women, at it's most ugly, raw and worst. ABC had it right when they came up with the Wide World of Sports intro... "the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat."
You judge though.
 

Bouffantrex

Banned Member
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266
That's true but I think Kwan has really owned that line.
Kwan hasn't competed in 18 years, dear. Time to find a new angle.

We don't know that. Trusova would've been 17 by July 1 of last year anyways, and it's not as if all less than graceful podium/k&c moments of the past came from young teens ;)
True. I do not mind drama; Surya, for example, is a legend.

However, the problem with the Olympics had absolutely nothing to do with age, it was due to doping and a toxic (at best) training environment for those three girls.
 

VGThuy

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39,470
I don’t think any skater competitive for medals and titles, even Kwan, said they just “wanted to have fun” during a serious competition. Kwan may have taken [some] defeats in stride or explained that she was starting to appreciate the journey itself, but that’s not the same thing as not caring about winning or having no emotion or anger/disappointment during a loss. I don’t think we should conflate the actual message with that sort of interpretation. “Have fun” is just another way of saying I need to put this competition in perspective and I really wanted to have a great performance to show the audience (live and on tv) the fruits of all the labor and practice I’ve put in for hours every day and learning to not let the performance go or save the performance if something didn’t go your way. It was just a way for a skater to deal with the competition, nothing more. Of course, they all want to win. I don’t think it needs to be spelled out. Think about Debi Thomas biffing on her 3T/3T in Calgary and thinking about it too much because she really wanted that perfect skate.
 

Karen-W

Neither sexy nor sultry, but loving life!
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23,062
That's true but I think Kwan has really owned that line.
LOL. She was hardly the first and most definitely not the last.
You judge though.
And? You also judge... See your comment above about Kwan. The only difference between you and me is that I'm honest about it. And, frankly, even in the moment, at the time of the Beijing Women's FS aftermath, I was pretty flabbergasted by what transpired from the Russian team, and utterly heartbroken for Kamila, Anna and Sasha - they didn't deserve any of what happened to them, even if it did make for epic live viewing. Go ahead, go check out the pbp thread here and review my comments at the time if you don't believe me.
 

overedge

Mayor of Carrot City
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33,777
Both the kiss & cry and leader's couch are both integral to figure skating. It would be foolhearty to abolish either.

The "leader's couch" is not "integral" to the sport. It's only been around for the past couple of years, and IMO it can go away. This is a competition, not a frickin' reality show or beauty pageant. There is enough drama and reactions in the K&C.
 

manhn

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14,374
We see the "leader's couch" in other sports. All of those X-sports, sledding sports. At least the figure skaters can sit down. I wonder why not speed skating?
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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51,399
Both the kiss & cry and leader's couch are both integral to figure skating.
When people say things like this, it makes me wonder how old they are and how long they have been watching skating given that it's a very recent development and doesn't exist at every competition.

(are there any competitions in July?).
There are massive numbers of club comps all summer. And, as has been pointed out, several internationals.

That's true but I think Kwan has really owned that line.
That's interesting because I don't actually recall her saying "I Just want to have fun" at all. I do remember her saying that she just wants to do her best and that she can't control the judging and things like that.

I suppose she has said at least once, but "I just want to do my best" is the line I associate with her.
 

carriecmu0503

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495
Interesting that another winter sports federation FIS (alpine/freestyle/cross country/ski jumping/snowboard) uses the December 31st cutoff for senior age eligibility.

For 2022 Beijing Olympic eligibility in ski/snowboard, you had to be 15 by December 31st 2006.
The cutoff is based on the calendar of the competitive season. The figure skating starts in the summer, which is why July 1 (the midway point of the calendar year) is the cutoff. Having the age cutoff in the middle of the season (December 31) would make zero sense, which is why July 1 is what works for the sport of figure skating.
 

Seerek

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5,679
The cutoff is based on the calendar of the competitive season. The figure skating starts in the summer, which is why July 1 (the midway point of the calendar year) is the cutoff. Having the age cutoff in the middle of the season (December 31) would make zero sense, which is why July 1 is what works for the sport of figure skating.

Yes, I actually agree with you the ISU methodology makes more sense.

I was just presenting a counter example where another major winter sports federation, the FIS, whose competition calendar (for ski and snowboard) also starts on July 1st, yet they've opted for the December 31st cutoff.

Example: (Still 15), Ski jumper Anezka Indrackova of the Czech Republic was born July 30th 2006 and got to compete in Beijing because the FIS cutoff was December 31st.
 

leilaofpaper

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317
I actually really like it being July 1st cause with the amended rules it means a skater needs to be turning 18 by the end* of the season.

*end-ish, I know it technically ends with Worlds or WTT
 

carriecmu0503

Well-Known Member
Messages
495
Yes, I actually agree with you the ISU methodology makes more sense.

I was just presenting a counter example where another major winter sports federation, the FIS, whose competition calendar (for ski and snowboard) also starts on July 1st, yet they've opted for the December 31st cutoff.

Example: (Still 15), Ski jumper Anezka Indrackova of the Czech Republic was born July 30th 2006 and got to compete in Beijing because the FIS cutoff was December 31st.
What is their qualifying procedure for competition? Do they have mandatory required minimum score like figure skating? Do they have significantly different requirements from the junior level to the senior level that would affect qualifying? I am not familiar with that sport, so I do not know. These questions would greatly determine whether it is possible to start the season as a junior and end it as a senior. It is really just not at all possible for figure skating. I actually wish they would have raised the age limit to 18, but I am a lot happier with 17 than 15!
 

Karen-W

Neither sexy nor sultry, but loving life!
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23,062
OK, then, make it 16.5 by July 1.
Oh, please. Now you're just playing semantics and over-complicating the rule. We get that don't like the rule and apparently can't handle arbitrary deadlines that aren't based on the calendar year. However do you pay your taxes by April 15th every year?
 

VGThuy

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39,470
OK, then, make it 16.5 by July 1.
Wouldn't that make it more complicated? With this suggestion, it's not enough to have a cut-off date, but now they have to measure sixteen years plus 182/3 days aka 6,022/6,023 days? Having the cut off be on July 1 makes more sense than January 1 since seasons run over two years (that's why we call it the 2022-23 season and not just the 2022 season).

Just think of it this way. Imagine the skating year was a regular year. Except, the New Year isn't on January 1 but July 1. Twelve months pass by and it's a whole new skating year. That's why the rule is by July 1.

Why would it make more sense if the ISU scheduled the cut-off date on January 1? Theoretically, all dates are kind of arbitrary anyway, so might as well choose a date that makes the most sense for the sporting calendar since it's an age cut-off rule for the sport.

Anyway, on the macro level, no matter when the ISU schedules the cut-off date, the situation will be the same — some skaters will make it in and others will just miss out even if some of them were born within less than a minute of each other. Hell, the idea of a global cut-off date in a world with different time zones and doesn't adjust for those time zones are already inherently unfair as those living to the "right" of the international date line have more time to make the cut-off than those living to the "left" of the international date line.
 

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