International Olympic Committee urges sports bodies to cancel events in Russia, Belarus

Andrey aka Pushkin

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Many russian and belorussian athletes are soldiers. Maybe only on the paper, but still.
I don't know if that might give a reason to ban the entire team. I am not even sure it allows to ban specifically them.

Again, I'm not against sanctions. I want the sanctions to be lawful, even if the actions of Russia are not.
Teams have the right to refuse competing against Russians. That's fair.
Federations might refuse to invite Russian athletes. That's also possible, although I don't think it's allowed for major championships.
Organizations might cancel events in Russia or at all. That's another legal way of action.

Just to say "we don't allow Russians" is illegal. Legality is more important that what might right now be perceived as justice here and now.
 

Asli

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I don't like it. In fact, I really don't like what is going on on that front.

ISU, IOC and the rest are sports organizations. They must be non political, that's the reason why they exist. It's not up to them to decide a certain country should be punished for political reasons.
The invasion of Ukraine is not simply a "political reason".

If Russia disagreed with some practices of the World Trade Organisation, that would be a political reason. If it disagreed with its carbon emission quota or passed a law banning demonstrations, that would be a political. Invasion, war, slaughter and destruction are not simply political.

Sports, OTOH has always been political, especially during the cold war. Success in sports is probably the best means of propaganda, the most effective show of superiority. In war, you don't allow your enemy's propaganda.

By invading Ukraine, Russia has taken itself out of the family of countries - even if it is a disfunctional family, members aren't allowed to kill each other. All institutions - including the ISU - are for the members of the family. These compêtitions are among members of the family. So bye bye Russia!
 

bcash

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I only support it if Chinese skaters are also banned for China committing genocide against Muslims
Stop throwing words like genocide around if you cannot present/point to evidence for genocidal actions and events. We see what Russian troops are doing and we heard Putin had to say.

And stop using distraction tactics so as to bleach values out of all human action. Others' wrongs do not excuse yours.
 

allezfred

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Just to say "we don't allow Russians" is illegal.
Is it though? Am fairly sure the IOC and ISU will have consulted their legal advisors before coming to this decision. If it is illegal, the Russian and Belarusian federations could take the case to CAS.

There is also precedent for banning a country due to political reasons. South Africa was banned by the IOC for decades due to apartheid. And sport whether we like it or not is absolutely political especially in somewhere like Russia where athletes are funded and feted by the state.
 

hanca

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I don't like it. In fact, I really don't like what is going on on that front.

ISU, IOC and the rest are sports organizations. They must be non political, that's the reason why they exist. It's not up to them to decide a certain country should be punished for political reasons.

The idea to remove the Russian/Belorussian sportsmen now is a political decision netto. It might be widely supported, but it's against the rules, and it creates a very problematic precedent. Just as well, I think the pressure to exclude the Russian/Belorussian athletes comes from politicians; we really don't want politicians being involved in the decisions of IOC (even if political decisions unofficially exist anyway). Currently the decision as it is now, simply illegal. Supposedly, the Russians will appeal to CAS and likely win. Of course, ISU and the likes will make up some other procedural way for the ban that might stand, but again, I don't think it is the right way to go.

There's no problem to ban Russia/Belarus from hosting, that's not an issue.
That said, there's a problem, IIRC in the fact EU countries, namely France, blankly refuse entry to their territory for citizens of a country. If I'm not mistaken, such policy should prevent any such country from hosting an international event.
This post expressed how I feel about this all. I think I couldn’t express it better. I am not against punishing Russia, but it really doesn’t feel right that they are excluded from sports. It just feels wrong.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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71,417
There are no winners in war. Everybody loses, especially those who had nothing to do with the decisions made be a few. This is just another causality of Putin's ambition and I'm heartbroken that this had to happen.
 

allezfred

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This post expressed how I feel about this all. I think I couldn’t express it better. I am not against punishing Russia, but it really doesn’t feel right that they are excluded from sports. It just feels wrong.
I think it is totally understandable to feel sad that Russian skaters (some of whom I am a fan of too) won't be at Worlds.

However, we also likely will not see Ukrainian skaters at Worlds because they have had to take up arms to defend their country. That is the worse injustice in this case.
 

hanca

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I think it is totally understandable to feel sad that Russian skaters (some of whom I am a fan of too) won't be at Worlds.

However, we also likely will not see Ukrainian skaters at Worlds because they have had to take up arms to defend their country. That is the worse injustice in this case.
I don’t feel sad about not seeing the skating from Russian skaters, I just honestly believe that banning Russians from sports events is not the right thing to do. Because then from now on, whenever there is a war, there should be skaters banned from that country. And who will decide who should be punished?

I feel sport should be above politics. Even if the skaters skate ‘under ISU’ rather than under the name of Russia. I would ban the judges, technical specialists and any officials. I would not ban the athletes. They would not be allowed to have their anthem, flag, their national team jackets with the name of their country etc, but not ban the athletes. Especially in sports where most of the athletes are not even old enough to vote!
 

MarieM

Grumpy Cynical Ice Dance Lover
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If your country is invading another, with a full war on, you shouldn't be able to participate in any competition.
When you do, you serve as a propaganda tool.
Anyway, explain to me how they could have come to any competition during war time? There will be no visas for people from Russia/Belorussia for some time, and no exceptions.
 

Asli

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That said, there's a problem, IIRC in the fact EU countries, namely France, blankly refuse entry to their territory for citizens of a country. If I'm not mistaken, such policy should prevent any such country from hosting an international event.

You are still thinking with a peace time logic, Andrey. I don't know if France has a blanket ban on visas to Russian citizens, but I am absolutely for such a meeasure.

Russia is at war and France is actively arming their enemy. What would be the standard response to that? Sabotage in France's defence industry and reprisals in France to scare the public into pushing their government to stop helping Ukraine. :scream:I don't want any risk to be taken in the country where my children walk in the street.

Asylum seekers who are known Putin-opponents excluded of course.
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

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The invasion of Ukraine is not simply a "political reason".

If Russia disagreed with some practices of the World Trade Organisation, that would be a political reason. If it disagreed with its carbon emission quota or passed a law banning demonstrations, that would be a political. Invasion, war, slaughter and destruction are not simply political.

Sports, OTOH has always been political, especially during the cold war. Success in sports is probably the best means of propaganda, the most effective show of superiority. In war, you don't allow your enemy's propaganda.

By invading Ukraine, Russia has taken itself out of the family of countries - even if it is a disfunctional family, members aren't allowed to kill each other. All institutions - including the ISU - are for the members of the family. These compêtitions are among members of the family. So bye bye Russia!
Lol, it's not often I disagree with you, especially that I'm not even necessarily disagree :lol:
And yet.

I'm looking at it from my very personal specific point of view. One of differences in perception between Russians and West is "justice" vs. "law". These two things are not the same. One of the reasons why we're where we are, is because the Russian narrative says "yes, it's illegal, but it's the right thing to do". In fact, this is how they annexed Crimea. "Yes, it's illegal, we are breaking the agreement we are signed on, but the justice demands it!". And know what, they actually had a point, historically, ethnically and by popular support, it was the "just" thing. It was just illegal AF and opened a whole new can of worms.

The question of what is right or wrong is a moral question and it is subjective. The question of what is legal or illegal is given to the interpretation, but ideally it's objective. I'm totally against opening the door for the moral ambiguity even if it is an extreme situation. I want to be on the lawful side of things, even if they are against my opinion right now. Yes, the Russians are breaking the law, but I don't want "my side" to break the law too, I want to have a strong moral ground.

And not to point fingers, but countless number of countries have gone to war in the last decades, with different levels of justifications. Included but not limited to my own. This is the first time sports organizations are either forced or decide to act in this indiscriminate way. I don't like this precedent, and I am really uncomfortable with it.

It's not about "poor skaters, they've done nothing wrong". Every single Russian person I know is suffering right now. Some of the people we both know have lost work, some lost their lifetime projects, some have lost opportunities, all lost most of their savings; and we are talking about people who don't in any way support Putin or this war. But it is justified and within the law, and they themselves accept it more or less as a result of the circumstances. I want us to remain in the realm of law, please.

Is it though? Am fairly sure the IOC and ISU will have consulted their legal advisors before coming to this decision. If it is illegal, the Russian and Belarusian federations could take the case to CAS.

There is also precedent for banning a country due to political reasons. South Africa was banned by the IOC for decades due to apartheid. And sport whether we like it or not is absolutely political especially in somewhere like Russia where athletes are funded and feted by the state.

I believe it is, and I believe the Russians are going to appeal :sekret:
Can't predict what will be the result, though. I think the more staunch organizations will prefer to cancel the event rather than host the Russians, other will probably try to prevent them from coming under different technical excuses, some might allow the Russians in. Or maybe CAS will decide in favor of IOC.

I don't know enough about S.African ban and how it was justified. However, the current war can't possibly fall under that justification because it's just so different. What I'm sure in - even though the context is political, the ban of S.Africa must have been justified by some paragraph or rule that was broken (I presume equality of the Olympic spirit or some other :drama: ). I don't think a paragraph regarding wars exists, otherwise the championships became Swiss nationals long ago.
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

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You are still thinking with a peace time logic, Andrey. I don't know if France has a blanket ban on visas to Russian citizens, but I am absolutely for such a meeasure.

Russia is at war and France is actively arming their enemy. What would be the standard response to that? Sabotage in France's defence industry and reprisals in France to scare the public into pushing their government to stop helping Ukraine. :scream:I don't want any risk to be taken in the country where my children walk in the street.

Asylum seekers who are known Putin-opponents excluded of course.
I am not disagreeing, and definitely not going to teach France how to react :lol:
Personally I don't think that outright visa denial is the way to go, because it targets the wrong people; but over all it's fair. But in that case, I fear, the Worlds should be canceled. That would be (as far as I'm aware, maybe I'm wrong) the legal way, and we're all going to pay the price in some form, this would be one of them.
 

Asli

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I am not disagreeing, and definitely not going to teach France how to react :lol:
Personally I don't think that outright visa denial is the way to go, because it targets the wrong people; but over all it's fair. But in that case, I fear, the Worlds should be canceled. That would be (as far as I'm aware, maybe I'm wrong) the legal way, and we're all going to pay the price in some form, this would be one of them.
You must be joking! No competition has been cancelled because some of the athletes couldn't get a visa. I know that there have been several cases when some Turkish athletes couldn't get a visa.
 
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Asli

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Every single Russian person I know is suffering right now. Some of the people we both know have lost work, some lost their lifetime projects, some have lost opportunities, all lost most of their savings; and we are talking about people who don't in any way support Putin or this war.
I'm very sorry to hear this. :(
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

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You must be joking! No competition has been cancelled because some of the athletes couldn't get a visa. I know that there have been several cases when some Turkish athletes couldn't get a visa.
There must be a difference between inability for a specific person to get visa and an outright entry denial.
I'm pretty sure there's a demand from the hosting country to not to have a blanket ban on any nation, or something to that extent. I never went too deep, but there have been several scandals involving Israelis and their entrance to the Gulf States, with cancelation of the event being a possible measure.

It's quite possible, btw, the way France currently denies entry actually falls under what is acceptable. I'm not sure what IOC does is.
 

airgelaal

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Ok, lets see. Nikita Katsalapov serves in the army now. russian army pays him regularly. So, it's ok if russian soldier will dance happily on the French ice. Then he will return home and will get another medal from russian army. He already has one medal - For military prowess (I hope its right translation). And now his comrades are killing people in Ukraine.
So how in the hell it's just a political decision? This skaters must do at least something!!!
 

Asli

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Personally I don't think that outright visa denial is the way to go, because it targets the wrong people; but over all it's fair. But in that case, I fear, the Worlds should be canceled. That would be (as far as I'm aware, maybe I'm wrong) the legal way, and we're all going to pay the price in some form, this would be one of them.
BTW, you and TAHbKA would still have to come to France even if the Worlds were cancelled, because I've been looking forward to it and I'm not prepared to pay the price of you two not being here. :drama:
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

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Ok, lets see. Nikita Katsalapov serves in the army now. russian army pays him regularly. So, it's ok if russian soldier will dance happily on the French ice. Then he will return home and will get another medal from russian army. He already has one medal - For military prowess (I hope its right translation). And now his comrades are killing people in Ukraine.
So how in the hell it's just a political decision? This skaters must do at least something!!!
Well, I won't go far. Krasnapolski has served in the Israeli army - that's the law in Israel. Quite a few countries see Israel as an aggressor on different instances.

I completely understand your point. If ISU finds a legal way to exclude Nikita or Russians in general - fair shot. If not, sorry about it, he should be allowed to compete (although, probably, the Russians might decide to withdraw themselves). But I don't want the decisions to be made based on what is "just". Because "justice" is a point of view and subjective, by using it, the neutral and apolitical entities take a political stand. It is not how it should be. It is important to have some bodies that are beyond politics, even at the worst of times.

Well we have a precedent now so the next time an aggressor nation invades a sovereign country we can petition the IOC and the ISU to do what they have done in this case.
I'm not against it. But if so, it has to be written as a rule, voted on a general assembly of IOC/ISU and applied to everybody. And then ban everyone who is part of any war (because I don't know how one determines objectively who is the aggressor and who is the victim, we all know Russians claim they are the victims). I guess we will be first out :)


BTW, you and TAHbKA would still have to come to France even if the Worlds were cancelled, because I've been looking forward to it and I'm not prepared to pay the price of you two not being here. :drama:
Agreed :)
I will come whether there are Worlds or not. I didn't let a world pandemic stop me, sure as hell I won't let some lunatic.
 

Twilight1

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9,385
This is Russia can't come so all events should be canceled is pathetic.

They are literally THREATENING NUKES.

Them whining about not being able to bring their ball to the game is literally the least they can do with their screwed up leader threatening murdering millions. 😳😳
 

Rafter

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I'm very sorry to hear this. :(

I too am very sorry about this. It’s sad that innocent Russians are suffering but I’m afraid it has to be done in order to try to stop the tyrant dictator murderer.

As for Russia at large, the way things are going they are certainly going in the way of being cut off and isolated to the world — North Korea style.
 

Karen-W

Neither sexy nor sultry, but loving life!
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@Andrey aka Pushkin - Russia gives so much of a damn about the sanctity of sporting competitions and respect for world peace and order that it chose to disregard the Olympic Truce. I realize that the UN resolution to "lay down arms" during the period of 7 days before and after as well as during any Olympic Games is voluntary, so Russia isn't bound by international law, but, the naked aggression demonstrated by Russia last week, which is only continuing to escalate, means they really do not deserve any further opportunities to "bring glory to the fatherland" like participating in international competitions.

I didn't see you bemoaning the EBS disinviting Russia from Eurovision when that happened (and that was the first major international competition they were banned from, IIRC). And I haven't read about the poor Belarusian athletes who are also being banned. I'd believe this was truly about sport being apolitical at all times if it wasn't so clearly obvious that you are only upset about RUSSIAN athletes and their exclusion. Go ahead and tell your delusional friends in Russian sports federations that they should appeal to CAS. Maybe in the weird, twisted Beijing bubble a few weeks ago, when the world still believed that Russia wasn't really that bad or blatantly scornful of international agreements and rules, they would be as successful as they were at Valieva's hearing. But that isn't the world we now inhabit and I would be shocked if CAS didn't treat any Russian appeals with the same regard as Russia has Ukraine's sovereignty.
 

caseyedwards

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Stop throwing words like genocide around if you cannot present/point to evidence for genocidal actions and events. We see what Russian troops are doing and we heard Putin had to say.

And stop using distraction tactics so as to bleach values out of all human action. Others' wrongs do not excuse yours.
You don’t know? You need a link from me? Not doing that
 

Rafter

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I believe it is, and I believe the Russians are going to appeal :sekret:
Can't predict what will be the result, though. I think the more staunch organizations will prefer to cancel the event rather than host the Russians, other will probably try to prevent them from coming under different technical excuses, some might allow the Russians in. Or maybe CAS will decide in favor of IOC.

I don't know enough about S.African ban and how it was justified. However, the current war can't possibly fall under that justification because it's just so different. What I'm sure in - even though the context is political, the ban of S.Africa must have been justified by some paragraph or rule that was broken (I presume equality of the Olympic spirit or some other :drama: ). I don't think a paragraph regarding wars exists, otherwise the championships became Swiss nationals long ago.

Appealing? Delusional.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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51,248
ISU, IOC and the rest are sports organizations. They must be non political, that's the reason why they exist. It's not up to them to decide a certain country should be punished for political reasons.
For decades, the sports world (and entertainment and other industries) banned participants from South Africa because of apartheid. Sometimes the actions of a country are so egregious, that people everywhere must take a stand.

@Andrey aka Pushkin what I don't think you understand is that we are at the start of WWIII. This isn't about political protest. It's about picking sides in a worldwide conflict.
 
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