Interesting article about Ukraine in NYT

Vash01

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I found this article in NYT and thought it was very interesting. It tells the historical background, why Ukraine is so important, how Putin thinks and why he is wrong.

I couldn't find a thread where it would be a fit. Admins can move it if this does not need a thread of its own.

 

Vash01

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Did you gift the link?
I didn't know how to. I looked up for help on NYT and they described a way to e-print an article. I will look for it again later, unless someone has already done it.
 
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ChelleC

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I didn't know how to. I looked up for help on NYT and they described a way to e-print an article. I will look for it again later, unless someone has already done it.
For future reference for you, if you look underneath the picture to the left, there's a link that says "give this article."
 

barbk

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A different NY Times article: As Russia Stalls in Ukraine, Dissent Grows over Putin's Leadership

In January, the head of a group of serving and retired Russian military officers declared that invading Ukraine would be “pointless and extremely dangerous.” It would kill thousands, he said, make Russians and Ukrainians enemies for life, risk a war with NATO and threaten “the existence of Russia itself as a state.”

To many Russians, that seemed like a far-fetched scenario, since few imagined that an invasion of Ukraine was really possible. But two months later, as Russia’s advance stalls in Ukraine, the prophecy looms large. Reached by phone this week, the retired general who authored the declaration, Leonid Ivashov, said he stood by it, though he could not speak freely given Russia’s wartime censorship: “I do not disavow what I said.”

In Russia, the slow going and the heavy toll of President Vladimir V. Putin’s war on Ukraine are setting off questions about his military’s planning capability, his confidence in his top spies and loyal defense minister, and the quality of the intelligence that reaches him. It also shows the pitfalls of Mr. Putin’s top-down governance, in which officials and military officers have little leeway to make their own decisions and adapt to developments in real time.
....
 

caseyedwards

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In 2004 Ukraine elected a pro nato president! It wasn’t that Ukraine opposed being in nato it was nato opposed Ukraine being in nato. So Ukraine had been already lost to Russia in 2004. it elected a “pro Russia president” (in western conventional wisdom) in 2010 everyone saw it overthrown in 2014! So what’s the difference

Plus Russia wasn’t punished so much for crimea as much as it was this year because Obama and other countries leaders wanted Russia for the Iran nuclear deal
 
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Nadya

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I found this article in NYT and thought it was very interesting. It tells the historical background, why Ukraine is so important, how Putin thinks and why he is wrong.

I couldn't find a thread where it would be a fit. Admins can move it if this does not need a thread of its own.


I don't understand the obsession with "Russians and Ukrainians are one people!", as if this means anything. I mean what if they were? What if they weren't? What earthly difference does it make?

Russia prides itself on being a place for many different ethnicities, at least on paper. Chechens, for instance, are completely different from Russians in religion, language, customs and history. No one sane would claim Chechens and Russians are the same people, yet Russia came down hard on them when they (misguidedly) sought independence, killing many thousand civilians and razing Grozny down. It did not make one iota of difference that they were "different" from Russians ethnically. The entire North Caucasus is a veritable patchwork of discrete ethnicities with their own language and customs, yet no one questions it is a part of Russia.
 

skatingguy

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I don't understand the obsession with "Russians and Ukrainians are one people!", as if this means anything. I mean what if they were? What if they weren't? What earthly difference does it make?

Russia prides itself on being a place for many different ethnicities, at least on paper. Chechens, for instance, are completely different from Russians in religion, language, customs and history. No one sane would claim Chechens and Russians are the same people, yet Russia came down hard on them when they (misguidedly) sought independence, killing many thousand civilians and razing Grozny down. It did not make one iota of difference that they were "different" from Russians ethnically. The entire North Caucasus is a veritable patchwork of discrete ethnicities with their own language and customs, yet no one questions it is a part of Russia.
There are actually a large number of separatist movements in various parts of Russia, including the North Caucasus. If Russia's strong central government collapsed it's hard to know how many of these might lead to declare independence.

 

Nadya

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There are actually a large number of separatist movements in various parts of Russia, including the North Caucasus. If Russia's strong central government collapsed it's hard to know how many of these might lead to declare independence.

My point is that when these separatist movements raise their heads, it's not like Russia says - oh you guys are so different from us in every way, godspeed and good luck with your independence "journey". The iron fist comes out again. So logically, if Ukraine MUST be merged with Russia because "we are one people", then all the clearly not-one-people ethnicities ought to be let go, no?
 

skatingguy

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My point is that when these separatist movements raise their heads, it's not like Russia says - oh you guys are so different from us in every way, godspeed and good luck with your independence "journey". The iron fist comes out again. So logically, if Ukraine MUST be merged with Russia because "we are one people", then all the clearly not-one-people ethnicities ought to be let go, no?
There is evidence of genocide in the actions that of the Putin regime so far in Ukraine, so maybe.
 

caseyedwards

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Losing territory is very embarrassing. No country wants to lose territory. And what if there is some kind of natural resources or money to be made in these areas. The country would become poorer. When the government of Russia was always on verge of collapse in the 90’s you had Chechnya of course but also Tatarstan and Ingushetia. It’s amazing how many tatars consider themselves a form of Russian. So while there was a big independence movement it didn’t become dominant
 

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