Insurrectionists and subversives: Trump and his supporters (Thread for all things Trump)

jenny12

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,036
How ‘bout we stop calling it “critical race theory” and call it “What’s Goin’ On”?
It seems me that racists get REAL uncomfortable about talking about racism. That’s what the push against CRT is mostly about.

Agreed. I don’t get people who are personally offended by talking about racist systems that need to be dismantled. Unless it’s because they know deep down that the only reason for their success is taking advantage of those said systems…
 

caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
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16,413
Agreed. I don’t get people who are personally offended by talking about racist systems that need to be dismantled. Unless it’s because they know deep down that the only reason for their success is taking advantage of those said systems…
The problem is any new system if at any point is run by mostly white people or have mostly white people in it they will make it a white Supremacist organization through their unconscious bias unless any new organization can never be run by white people or they find some way to never express what could be unconscious racism
 

skatingguy

Golden Team
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8,376
Woke gobbledygook.
Just because you disagree with that perspective doesn't mean that it's nonsense, it's just a different definition of the term that takes into account a different perspective.
Racism is judging someone by the color of their skin.
But surely must we recognize that it is more than just individual judgement, and that if racism was just individual judgement we would have eliminated most racial discrimination and we have fewer quantifiable differences between racial groups.
That's your problem. It's not a matter of your vote being suppressed and needing to "dismantle" the system.
I never said that I had a problem.
 

Japanfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
24,464
So according to crt, can black or brown people be racist?
Interesting question.

Of course POC can be racist in the sense of sub-groups of an ethnicity being racist against each other (eg. Japanese/Korean).

But one doesn't commonly hear oppressed people called racist or sexist, while their oppressors may be. Perhaps an argument can made that they can be racist or sexist, but I can't make one ATM. Oppressed people may fear the oppressor, or feel shame in the presence of the oppressor, but that doesn't make them racist.

To give an example. I have a gut reaction of discomfort when I deal with men from certain cultures, particularly in my business. This is because those men come from tremendously patriarchal cultures, and I've had negative experience with them in the past (like the guy coming on to me in my office and complimenting my breasts, while my husband watched TV in the living room). I fear I will not be respected by them, or will be diminished by virtue of being female. Once two men from such a culture came to work with me in my office on English language test preparation, and goodness, they were SO uncomfortable. It was very strange, especially since the first test question was whether schools should be gender segregated (which they were in the students' home country).

It's true that men from my own culture can behave awfully towards me also, and have done so.

So - does my discomfort with these men make me a racist?
 

Jot the Dot Dot

Headstrong Buzzard
Messages
4,074
Interesting question.

Of course POC can be racist in the sense of sub-groups of an ethnicity being racist against each other (eg. Japanese/Korean).

But one doesn't commonly hear oppressed people called racist or sexist, while their oppressors may be. Perhaps an argument can made that they can be racist or sexist, but I can't make one ATM. Oppressed people may fear the oppressor, or feel shame in the presence of the oppressor, but that doesn't make them racist.

To give an example. I have a gut reaction of discomfort when I deal with men from certain cultures, particularly in my business. This is because those men come from tremendously patriarchal cultures, and I've had negative experience with them in the past (like the guy coming on to me in my office and complimenting my breasts, while my husband watched TV in the living room). I fear I will not be respected by them, or will be diminished by virtue of being female. Once two men from such a culture came to work with me in my office on English language test preparation, and goodness, they were SO uncomfortable. It was very strange, especially since the first test question was whether schools should be gender segregated (which they were in the students' home country).

It's true that men from my own culture can behave awfully towards me also, and have done so.

So - does my discomfort with these men make me a racist?
It would only make you racist if you made a sweeping generalization about an entire race based on such encounters. Myself, I've worked with countless people of all races all my life, and know by experience and inclination that such generalizations are unfounded. Are all white people like the two angry-mouthy punk co-workers I had to deal with at Company X? Of course not. I've dealt with both congenial people and bad eggs from all groups, that's life as I know it.
 

allezfred

Lipinski Stole My Catchphrase
Staff member
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58,486
People in line may die waiting to vote because they can't get water??!! That's bull. People in line can receive water from election officials as much as they want, just not from political activists trying to gift water.
The fact that people might need to receive water while waiting in line to vote is the problem.
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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58,470
The fact that people might need to receive water while waiting in line to vote is the problem.
Indeed.

And what the 2020 US election showed us is that there don't ever need to be lines. By allowing extended early voting, mail voting, drop boxes and the variety of alternatives that were employed because of the *********, more people can vote without hassle. And more people did vote--more people of all political persuasions.

And this was considered the most secure election in US history with extremely minimal instances of fraud.

I would like to see a higher percentage of people voting in all elections in the US and 2020 pointed the way to that for us.

That anyone can argue that there should be long lines at voting stations is just bizarre.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
24,588
Indeed.

And what the 2020 US election showed us is that there don't ever need to be lines. By allowing extended early voting, mail voting, drop boxes and the variety of alternatives that were employed because of the *********, more people can vote without hassle. And more people did vote--more people of all political persuasions.

And this was considered the most secure election in US history with extremely minimal instances of fraud.

I would like to see a higher percentage of people voting in all elections in the US and 2020 pointed the way to that for us.

That anyone can argue that there should be long lines at voting stations is just bizarre.
Absolutely. In a first world country how is that even a problem? But apparently in the US it is.
 

Vagabond

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,953
And what the 2020 US election showed us is that there don't ever need to be lines. By allowing extended early voting, mail voting, drop boxes and the variety of alternatives that were employed because of the *********, more people can vote without hassle. And more people did vote--more people of all political persuasions.
You have missed the biggest factor of all in terms of what causes lines when people vote in person: the supply and accessibility of polling places. In my city, each polling station typically serves fewer than ten blocks and serves a few hundred voters. Some polling places in other parts of the country serve tens or even hundreds of thousands of voters. And those polling places are often located in outlying locations that are not served by public transportation.
 

caseyedwards

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Messages
16,413
I did do more research especially into “teachers guides for Teaching critical race theory” and all over them is the use of the word “whiteness” as possibly the worst thing in America. Without whiteness america could become anti racist. Now they use that word not to mean white people but seriously how are white people not bad if whiteness is the term for all evil in America?
 

once_upon

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,642
The fact that people might need to receive water while waiting in line to vote is the problem.
I agree, but the "can't give voters water while waiting to vote" component of the laws is really.a smoke screen for the real issue. Legislative bodies being able to negate the results if they don't like the outcome. By overriding the election boards certification of results, by replacing election boards, etc.

The Republican lead lawmakers want people to focus on the other issues not how they really intend to change results.
 

DORISPULASKI

Watching submarine races
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12,570
@caseyedwards Whatever you read, is not a teaching guide for the 1619 project. Because the articles are written by different authors, they have quite different points of view.

Here is a free link to the full text (100 pages) of the 1619 Project.

It is definitely worth reading imo.

If you read nothing else, read the article on health care.




I did do more research especially into “teachers guides for Teaching critical race theory” and all over them is the use of the word “whiteness” as possibly the worst thing in America. Without whiteness america could become anti racist. Now they use that word not to mean white people but seriously how are white people not bad if whiteness is the term for all evil in America?
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
24,588
I agree, but the "can't give voters water while waiting to vote" component of the laws is really.a smoke screen for the real issue. Legislative bodies being able to negate the results if they don't like the outcome. By overriding the election boards certification of results, by replacing election boards, etc.

The Republican lead lawmakers want people to focus on the other issues not how they really intend to change results.
That is an excuse for not addressing the real problem which is the waiting times. And then punish people for being forced to wait because they haven't address the core problem that they themselves have created. It is a way to try and discourage people from voting.

It really is the height of stupidity. They are not interested in solving problems but more interested in creating them. And playing politics to the max.

I really hope that the games these GOP politicians are playing come back to bite them on butts around elections but I doubt it.
 

DORISPULASKI

Watching submarine races
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12,570
The source of racist ideas was not ignorance and hate, but self-interest.

The history of racist ideas is the history of powerful policy makers erecting racist policies out of self-interest, then producing racist ideas to defend and rationalize the inequitable results of their policies, while everyday people consume those racist ideas, which in turn spark ignorance and hate.

Kendi

In other words, to reference Tommy Douglas's Mouseland, the problem is

You see my friends the trouble wasn’t with the colour of the cats. The trouble was that they were cats. And because they were cats they naturally look after cats instead of mice.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
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10,072
I don’t know all of the details on the food and water laws. There has to be a way to work around that part of it, let’s get creative.
Well, the most obvious would be to bring your own water. But really, who is going to enforce any of this? People are going to test it just to challenge it. (Removing access to public restrooms would be a much more drastic problem in November in much of the country). Still seems like a distraction to me from other measures which are giving partisan lawmakers power over final vote accreditation.

--There is a measure going to Congress requiring that no lines be over 30 minutes long. Do we know if it could get any traction? (Seems pretty simple & straightforward. If you can't man your polling places & move people through, then . . . maybe you should allow more drop boxes).
 

caseyedwards

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16,413
@caseyedwards Whatever you read, is not a teaching guide for the 1619 project. Because the articles are written by different authors, they have quite different points of view.

Here is a free link to the full text (100 pages) of the 1619 Project.

It is definitely worth reading imo.

If you read nothing else, read the article on health care.
That’s true. It was not a teaching guide for the 1619 project but critical race theory.

1619 project rewrites American history according to critical race theory principals but is not what I mentioned.
 

ErikWilliam

Well-Known Member
Messages
548
Article about Lauren Boebert:

I noticed on FB there is a white woman who has decided to challenge Boebert. If she gains momentum, I will certainly donate to her campaign. Hell, I'd even donate to a Republican challenger, providing she's not just as batshot cray as Boebert. Same with MTG in Georgia (or is she NC?). Boebert, MTG, and Matt Gaetz are only in this to stir the pot, and become RW celebrities. Looking to cash in eventually on a lucrative position at any RW organization. As someone who grew up in a heavily Republican family, I'm ashamed at what the Republican Party has become, and so are many in my family. They are embarrassed to see those 3 call themselves Republican. American politics has become unrecognizable in the last ten years.
 

ballettmaus

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Messages
16,361
Okay, I was wrong. MSNBC wasn't next, Democrats on the Intelligence Committee were next. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/10/us/politics/justice-department-leaks-trump-administration.html

As the Justice Department investigated who was behind leaks of classified information early in the Trump administration, it took a highly unusual step: Prosecutors subpoenaed Apple for data from the accounts of at least two Democrats on the House Intelligence Committee, aides and family members. One was a minor.
Just how paranoid do you have to be if you think you need to subpoena the records of a minor?
 

DORISPULASKI

Watching submarine races
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12,570
That’s true. It was not a teaching guide for the 1619 project but critical race theory.

1619 project rewrites American history according to critical race theory principals but is not what I mentioned.

Actually, 1619 reports history that was omitted from our schoolbooks.

And it is not written from a background of CRT. It is written primarily by black journalists and black historians, not the black legal scholars and policy wonks that write about CRT for college and law school. Not that historians won't argue about some parts of it. Historians still argue about the causes of the Civil War. Arguing is what they do.

In schoolbooks, we either ignore slavery or worse, pretend the slaves were happy and well cared for. When we ignore slavery, we are making the preposterous claim that an enterprise that was key to the lives of so many of our citizens, both black and white, somehow just disappeared without having any effect on the culture and events that followed.

And ignoring history is never smart.

So please read it. Especially the article on medical treatment of black people, the article on sugar and Angola prison, and the article on the day to day operations of a large sugar plantation, as developed from financial accountbooks of the owners. This last is dry reading, but worth the effort.

Imo, Teaching 1619 project is definitely a good idea, especially at the high school level. And it is not CRT, despite what right wing media says.
 

DORISPULASKI

Watching submarine races
Messages
12,570

The state rep was expelled for helping plan and execute an armed incursion into the state capitol.

The vote to expel was 59-1, the one being Nearman himself.
 
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Dobre

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10,072
In schoolbooks, we either ignore slavery or worse, pretend the slaves were happy and well cared for.
I don't know any school history books that do either of these things. They could clearly do a better job integrating the discussion of slavery with the coverage of more history. And it's a tough ethical challenge to determine how much of the harsh realities of slavery to share with kids at specific ages. Teens, I think, really engage mentally in gritty difficult discussions. (Keeping in mind that much of the history kids learn in school is also presented via language arts).
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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66,720
As both an archaeologist and health care educator, I can attest that high school history textbooks are very much "white" washed with regard to race issues. And the US health care system is a perfect example of systemic racism. I provide dozens of examples to my senior level students much to their dismay
Much to my dismay, half deny ever witnessing overt racism, while the other half can provide multiple examples. From the same clinic site. Those who deny, don't want their comfortable world disrupted with other people's reality.
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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58,470
I don't know any school history books that do either of these things. They could clearly do a better job integrating the discussion of slavery with the coverage of more history. And it's a tough ethical challenge to determine how much of the harsh realities of slavery to share with kids at specific ages. Teens, I think, really engage mentally in gritty difficult discussions. (Keeping in mind that much of the history kids learn in school is also presented via language arts).
This is why I just observe this discussions from afar. I don't know anything about what is actually taught and I don't have any educational training to know how history should be taught at different ages.

The 1619 Project was published in the NY Times which I presume means it was intended for readers of the Times. Its an incredible resource in that way.

I think teaching history in schools is a complex subject that isn't just about what is factually accurate history. And even beyond schools how we use history as a society is fundamental to who we are and what kind of society we have so its naturally an incredibly contentious area.
 

Dobre

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10,072
As both an archaeologist and health care educator, I can attest that high school history textbooks are very much "white" washed with regard to race issues.
But can you attest that they totally ignore slavery or that they depict it as a positive experience? I don't think so.

I still think what really needs to happen is that we need to start mandating 2 years of U.S. history in high school. More needs to be taught. History only gets longer & currently, our kids are barely getting past Reconstruction by the time we get to May. They aren't getting an in-depth study of the past century & a half--much of which deals with some pretty heavy duty stuff. If it wasn't for Anne Frank, most kids probably wouldn't even cover World War II. If it wasn't for Martin Luther King Day, they might never get to the Civil Rights movement. History & language arts teachers try to tackle some of the major events of the 20th century, but this is very piecemeal. I've done units on Japanese internment camps. I had one in the 8th grade on Vietnam. A friend read All Quiet on the Western Front as part of her high school curriculum. But the reality is that few kids would get all three of those things in their studies because no one has time!

In fact, there is far less social studies being taught at the lower levels now because it is not tested & administrators are mandating more & more time for math & reading because $$$ is attached to passing those tests.
 
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BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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58,470
But can you attest that they totally ignore slavery or that they depict it as a positive experience? I don't think so.
I went to elementary school in Washington DC in the 1960s so that may not have been typical, but we certainly did learn about slavery but not in much detail. We were taught the civil war was about slavery but also that it ended slavery and we didn't learn much else about racism in our history.

That's more than 50 years ago, when legal segregation had barely ended so I have to wonder if its worse today?
 

Dobre

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10,072
That's more than 50 years ago, when legal segregation had barely ended so I have to wonder if its worse today?
No, its not worse. Most modern textbooks I've seen are better about including minority groups & women throughout their books.

I edited my post above to help explain the new problem, which is that we are teaching less history overall in schools now. When we should be teaching more.
 

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