Insurrectionists and subversives: Trump and his supporters (Thread for all things Trump)

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Dobre

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Dobre

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Per this Tweet, Graham is required to answer questions for the Georgia grand jury tomorrow.

I thought he wasn't allowed to take the fifth as he wasn't designated as a target. This tweet implies otherwise. Does this mean my assumption (based off of earlier comments elsewhere) was incorrect? Or does it mean Graham has now been named as a target?
 
once_upon

once_upon

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Dobre said:

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twitter.com

Per this Tweet, Graham is required to answer questions for the Georgia grand jury tomorrow.

I thought he wasn't allowed to take the fifth as he wasn't designated as a target. This tweet implies otherwise. Does this mean my assumption (based off of earlier comments elsewhere) was incorrect? Or does it mean Graham has now been named as a target?
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I thought it was the other way around. He is not the target, so he is not in jeopardy of criminal action.

In other words, he is not the subject of a crime, he is a witness.
 
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attyfan

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You don't have to be a target to take the 5th. You don't lose the right to take the 5th by being labeled a "witness" instead of a "target" -- otherwise, there would never be any "targets" until after the "witnesses" were forced to incriminate themselves.
 
once_upon

once_upon

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Right. You can plead the 5th, but it does make you look guilty in both a civil and criminal action.

I'm not a lawyer and therefore any advice or opinion is just my personal one but I believe

You can say something like "I don't recall" "I don't remember". No one can say you are lying, because there is no way they are able to know what you recall.

Even if they have a video or recorded action - you could say, I don't recall or remember. They can ask you if that's you, you could answer, it appears to be. You still could say you don't recall.

I think Graham just wanted to be above the law and not have to answer questions ie how dare you tell me I have to show up in your court
 
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Dobre

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I think Graham is/was worried about Graham.

Worried that if he tells the truth Trump will be angry at him & target him.

Worried that if he doesn't tell the truth, another witness will contradict any lies or obfuscation & the justice system will target Graham.
 
once_upon

once_upon

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Dobre said:
I think Graham is/was worried about Graham.

Worried that if he tells the truth Trump will be angry at him & target him.

Worried that if he doesn't tell the truth, another witness will contradict any lies or obfuscation & the justice system will target Graham.
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Which is probably why he should say "I don't remember" type of answers.

Now if he is outright asked - was, in your opinion, 2020 election results fixed or incorrect? That might be a bit harder to dodge.
 
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Dobre

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"a jury has convicted JESSE BENTON, on six campaign finance-related charges. Benton, a former adviser to Rand Paul and GOP political consultant was pardoned by Trump for other crimes just before he left office."


GOP operative found guilty of funneling Russian money to Donald Trump​


"A Republican political strategist was convicted of illegally helping a Russian businessman contribute to Donald Trump’s presidential campaign in 2016.

Jesse Benton, 44, was pardoned by Trump in 2020 for a different campaign finance crime, months before he was indicted again on six counts related to facilitating an illegal foreign campaign donation. He was found guilty Thursday on all six counts."
 
Yazmeen

Yazmeen

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Dobre said:
I think Graham is/was worried about Graham.

Worried that if he tells the truth Trump will be angry at him & target him.

Worried that if he doesn't tell the truth, another witness will contradict any lies or obfuscation & the justice system will target Graham.
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Graham is always worried about Graham. He shifts his positions so often to whatever will benefit him most that I'm amazed he's never had whiplash. Of course, I also have to thank him; that stupid little power play about a national law against abortion after 15 weeks helped squash the red wave "bigly." Learn your lesson, Miss Lindsey: don't pi** women off.
 
Sparks

Sparks

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NEW: Attorney General Merrick Garland plans to announce Friday that he has appointed a special counsel to oversee investigations into Mar-a-Lago and parts of 1/6 investigations

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peibeck

peibeck

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Sparks said:
NEW: Attorney General Merrick Garland plans to announce Friday that he has appointed a special counsel to oversee investigations into Mar-a-Lago and parts of 1/6 investigations

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Not thrilled with this decision, to be honest. The Mar-a-Lago case seems pretty ready to go with charges. (Anyone else would have been indicted months ago.) This is just further delay.
 
Vagabond

Vagabond

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A

Allskate

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peibeck said:
Not thrilled with this decision, to be honest. The Mar-a-Lago case seems pretty ready to go with charges. (Anyone else would have been indicted months ago.) This is just further delay.
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Yeah, but I'm not surprised. The impending Republican House majority already is planning to investigate Merrick Garland and the DOJ. And, IMO, Garland already has proven himself to be very cautious.

I wonder who is going to be the attorney during the oral argument that is scheduled for next week.

ETA: Andrew Weissmann seems to think that the special counsel is quite aggressive and will bring cases if warranted by the facts and law:

Also, for those who don't want to wade through the "model prosecution memo" on MAL that a bunch of national defense attorneys/former prosecutors put together, here is a summary:

 
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Reuven

Reuven

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Here’s a link to why the Special Counsel is a good idea by Randall Eliason

Now that Trump has announced, Biden’s DOJ is investigating and potentially prosecuting a candidate who will undoubtedly be a front-runner for the nomination to run against Biden in 2024. It’s hard to imagine a starker conflict of interest. Any resulting prosecution could easily lead to a perception that the attorney general is trying to “take out” one of his boss’s chief political rivals.
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But I don’t think there needs to be a lot of additional delay. A special counsel need not start from scratch. The prosecutors and investigators already working on the investigation could simply be detailed over to the special counsel’s office and continue their work. It would take a little time for the new boss to get fully up to speed, but even while that’s happening the investigation could continue.
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As for comparisons to Mueller:

But the Mueller investigation record is not evidence that special counsels are ineffective. I’d argue Mueller did a terrific investigation and did it very quickly. He obtained indictments of the Russians who interfered with the 2016 election and provided an invaluable, detailed report for the public about their activities. He also did an exhaustive investigation of potential obstruction of his own investigation and indicted and convicted a number of those in Trump’s inner circle. My only real quarrel with Mueller was his refusal to take a position on whether Trump obstructed justice. Although I understood his reasoning, I didn’t agree with it.

Mueller’s real problem was that he trusted an attorney general whose primary goal was protecting the sitting president. Bill Barr betrayed Mueller by announcing himself that Trump did not obstruct justice and by giving a misleading public summary of Mueller’s report before it was released. Then Congress failed to impeach Trump for obstruction of justice, even though Mueller’s report clearly set out a basis for impeachment. If you’re unhappy with the outcome of the Mueller investigation, I’d suggest the fault does not lie primarily with Mueller, and certainly not with the special counsel system.
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Dobre

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Prosecutors Look at Florida Election Protest as a Model for Jan. 6​

www.nytimes.com

Prosecutors Look at Florida Election Protest as a Model for Jan. 6

The Justice Department is examining ties among the far-right Proud Boys, Roger Stone and others over their roles in 2018 “Stop the Steal” demonstrations.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

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Trump Family’s Newest Partners: Middle Eastern Governments​

The government of Oman is a partner in a real estate deal signed last week by the former president, intensifying questions about a potential conflict as he seeks the White House again.
www.nytimes.com

Trump Family’s Newest Partners: Middle Eastern Governments

The government of Oman is a partner in a real estate deal signed last week by the former president, intensifying questions about a potential conflict as he seeks the White House again.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
 
DreamSkates

DreamSkates

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sk9tingfan said:
This is a very interesting analysis of how the psych community is viewing the whole MAGA/Trumpist phenomenon and why it has occurred. From @Duty2Warn

Many psychologists increasingly use Addiction Theory to explain the cult of Trump. The premise: Trump supporters engage compulsively, pursue rewarding stimuli, ignore adverse consequence. Like an addict.
It explains why they adopt arguments that work against their own interests.
10:06 AM · Nov 2, 2022

One example of Trump supporters adopting an argument or taking action against their interests was not getting vaccinated. Another is sending him $. It's defiant behavior. It's compulsive. MAGA are very much addicted. The reward is owning the libs. The drug is dopamine.

The first recommended treatment is hypnosis! Also, from @kedgedragon

The first stop in hypnosis is to induce dissonance
The second is to suggest a path of relief
Repeat until suspension of critical barriers
Introduce new concepts and behaviors through suggestion
Reinforce through repetition until habits are formed

Release subject to autonomy
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What is the void in their lives that influences susceptibility to this behavior?
 
Prancer

Prancer

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Appeals panel grills Trump lawyer over FBI search of Mar-a-Lago​


Pryor also seemed to criticize Trump’s team for asking for a special master without proving that the initial search was illegal.
“If you can’t establish that it was unlawful," he said, "then what are we doing here?”

CNN has more quotes:

“Other than the fact that this involves a former president, everything else about this … is indistinguishable,” Judge William Pryor, the chief judge of the appellate court, told Trump lawyer James Trusty during the arguments.

“We’ve gotta be concerned about the precedent that we would create that would allow any target of offense of a federal criminal investigation to go into district court and to have a district court entertain this kind of petition, exercise equitable jurisdiction (that allows a court to intervene) and interfere with the executive branch’s ongoing investigation,” Pryor said.

Perhaps, just perhaps, it is going to be clearly established that Presidents are not above the law.

Trusty argued to the court on Tuesday the search and seizure might have violated the former president’s rights, saying the FBI took golf shirts and Celine Dion pictures from the beach home and resort along with documents marked as classified.

Seriously, this was an argument?

“The problem is you know, the search warrant was for classified documents, and boxes, and other items that are intermingled with that. I don’t think it’s necessarily the fault of the government if someone has intermingled classified documents and all kinds of other personal property,” Pryor told Trusty during the arguments.

And then there was this:

In a separate exchange, Grant cut Trusty off when he called the August search at Mar-a-Lago a “raid.”

“Do you think a raid is the right term for the execution of a warrant?” Grant asked.

Trusty then apologized for using the “loaded term.”

Heh. I wonder how some news organizations will address that. My money says they won't.
 
A

Allskate

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Prancer said:
Trusty then apologized for using the “loaded term.”

Heh. I wonder how some news organizations will address that. My money says they won't.
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Fox won't. But, I've noticed that there are some on MSNBC who are careful not to use the term "raid."

More importantly, from what I've heard and read, this panel of Republican-appointed judges is very likely to rule unanimously against Trump. I still think they will find that Judge Cannon didn't even have jurisdiction. Of course, Trump got a lot of what he wanted - delay.

ETA: I think Trump's attorneys realize he is going to lose and that the entire civil case might be over soon. Today, they asked Judge Cannon to provide Trump with an unredacted copy of the affidavit underlying the MAL search warrant:

 
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D

Dobre

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After Court Fight, Lindsey Graham Appears Before Atlanta Grand Jury
www.nytimes.com

After Court Fight, Lindsey Graham Appears Before Atlanta Grand Jury

Lawyers for Mr. Graham had fought to keep him from having to testify in the investigation of election interference by former President Donald J. Trump and his allies.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

"'Today, Senator Graham appeared before the Fulton County special grand jury for just over two hours and answered all questions,' his office said in a statement on Tuesday afternoon."
 
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Dobre

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