Insurrectionists and subversives: Trump and his supporters (Thread for all things Trump)

sk8pics

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And the next 5-minute story brings us the fact that Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas did not report $700,000 of his wife's income from a conservative think tank for at least five years!! There also was another year of undisclosed/unknown salary amount from another year from Common Cause. Supreme Court Justices are mandated by law to disclose any spousal support".

I am no fan of Clarence Thomas, but this article was written in 2011. Would be nice to have a more recent update; were there any corrective actions taken? Is it still going on?
 

Allskate

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11,840
DOJ has asked for a one-day extension to contract with a 3rd party vendor to develop a portal to share documents with Trump's team because none of the suggested document review vendors would agree to work with Donald Trump! DOJ has also indicated that they expect Trump to pay for the associated costs,

https://twitter.com/MuellerSheWrote/status/1574894142789890048
It sounds like they are willing to work with the Trump attorneys, but that it has to be the government that signs the contract and pays them. Basically, they don't trust Trump to pay his bills. Can't blame them.
 

once_upon

Enough
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It sounds like they are willing to work with the Trump attorneys, but that it has to be the government that signs the contract and pays them. Basically, they don't trust Trump to pay his bills. Can't blame them.
What my husband said he heard? Read? That if Trump doesn't pay invoices in 7 days, he will be held in contempt with appropriate judgements?
 

Allskate

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Surely he has a credit card he can use. That is how most of us pay for these things.
Yeah, I used a credit card the last time I brought a civil suit after having my club searched for classified documents. :lol:

Trump has a long history of not paying his bills, including his legal bills. If I were a vendor, I would insist that the DOJ be the one to pay and then they can worry about reimbursement.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
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Yeah, I used a credit card the last time I brought a civil suit after having my club searched for classified documents. :lol:

Trump has a long history of not paying his bills, including his legal bills. If I were a vendor, I would insist that the DOJ be the one to pay and then they can worry about reimbursement.
Why would the DOJ have to pay for this when Trump is the plaintiff and is obligated to pay for any expenses related to this?
 

sk9tingfan

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Abdrew Weissmann on Lawrence O'Donnell believes that Trump is "quiet-quitting" the case after the 11th Circuit's opinion stating that Trump had no right to any of the documents.
 

Dobre

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I think the only way you can learn from history is if you are open to making the comparisons between the present and the past.
 

Aussie Willy

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No vendor will do business with Trump because he does not pay his bills. DOJ will pay upfront and then bill Trump.
Sorry if this is a silly question but why would the DOJ for the bill and then bill Trump when they know that he more than likely will not reimburse them?
 

Allskate

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Weissmann on Lawrence O'Donnell believes that Trump is "quiet-quitting" the case after the 11th Circuit's opinion stating that Trump had no right to any of the documents.
I think he's probably right. But, imagine if Trump and the DOJ disagreed about the return of some of the non-classified presidential documents and Dearie ended up ruling that DOJ had to keep them and use them for now, explaining the ways in which the documents were evidence of Trump's criminal state of mind. But, I doubt Trump's attorneys would do this. The DOJ already has given Trump's attorneys copies of the potentially privileged documents and have offered to give them copies of other documents that are his personal property. The only reason they might try to make a claim of executive privilege is if they are pulling a Hail Mary and want some kind of ruling on executive privilege from the Supreme Court that might help Trump in some of the election-related cases. But, they can fight that battle in those cases.

Sorry if this is a silly question but why would the DOJ for the bill and then bill Trump when they know that he more than likely will not reimburse them?
The DOJ can't get the documents reviewed by the special master and get permission to use the remaining documents until they get a vendor. The vendors they've already talked to won't contract with Trump because they are afraid of not getting paid. So, if the DOJ is not the one who makes the initial payment, the DOJ may not get the evidence back or, at the very least, there will be more delay and more headaches while they try to find a vendor who will contract with Trump. The special master already has had to push back deadlines because of the difficulty getting a vendor.

Trump reportedly isn't the one paying the fees. A PAC is. So, I would guess the DOJ will get paid by them. If not, the DOJ will file a motion and publicly point out that Trump brought this bogus case for bogus reasons and isn't paying and Dearie will rule accordingly, once again making Trump look bad. If we're lucky, this will coincide with the New York trial where there will be proof of other financial wrongdoing by Trump. :lol:
 

MacMadame

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I think some are seeing similarities to what Hitler was doing in the very beginning on a domestic level with what Trump would have been able to do and seems to have been ok with doing had there not been some protections thanks to our governmental infrastructure and our ability to still retain the rule-of-law, despite so many attempts to undermine, subvert, or overcome it.
Yes. It's not the end that we're seeing but the beginning. And, just like with Hitler, people are minimizing what he's doing.

I think the only way you can learn from history is if you are open to making the comparisons between the present and the past.
Ding. Ding. Ding.
 

caseyedwards

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Yes. It's not the end that we're seeing but the beginning. And, just like with Hitler, people are minimizing what he's doing.


Ding. Ding. Ding.

So is the answer just voting for democrats or try to put all those people in prison under new laws

This article goes into how it’s basically illegal to be a nazi in Germany. Very easy to see effort being made to make q anon a crime with jail time

 
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BlueRidge

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Yes. It's not the end that we're seeing but the beginning. And, just like with Hitler, people are minimizing what he's doing.


Ding. Ding. Ding.

In the aftermath of the Iraq invasion of 2003, Paul Bremmer, who led the effort to remake Iraq for the Bush Administration, steeped himself in the steps the US took in dealing with occupied Japan. He reportedly had documents from how that effort unfolded that he continually referenced and compared to the situation in Iraq.

He failed to see what was actually happening in Iraq and the vastly different circumstances.

The Bush administration wanted to believe the situation was closely aligned with the experience of occupied Japan and so they saw that in Iraq. Their efforts were a failure.

There is learning from history and there is looking for history to repeat itself. The latter is unwise.
 

Theatregirl1122

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One photo looked like slanted arms but take a look at this video at the beginning of the NY Times article (gifted) Trump Rally Plays Music Resembling QAnon Song

The reason I'm harping on this is because I do think these are dangerous times and critical thinking is called for.

I think critical thinking would tell us that global fascism is not a one time phenomenon reserved to the 1930s and 40s. It's a dangerous ideology that has reared it's head multiple times throughout history and that tends to threaten in multiple places around the world at the same time, and that becomes more and more true as the world globalizes. The Nazis may have been one incidence of fascism and genocide, but they are not, unfortunately, unique. The internet has a bad habit of comparing everything to Nazis, which needs to be curtailed. But the reason it needs to be curtailed is so that, when we are once again looking at the rise of global fascism, such comparisons aren't trivial. Most things shouldn't be compared to Nazis. Critical thinking is what tells us the difference between sports fans holding up the number 1 and a fascistic cult of personality based around white supremacy and conspiracy saluting their leader.

Hitler invaded other countries, started a world war, and murdered millions of people. Given that some of the people who suffered as a result were my family members, I don't find the differences trivial.

Acting like people are trivializing the holocaust or WWII is an interesting and incredibly hostile choice. But I guess thanks for thinking of me that way.

You do understand that Hitler didn't start by invading other countries and murdering millions of people. If you wait until something is at the scale of the holocaust to call out the danger means you will always be too late.
 

BlueRidge

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I think critical thinking would tell us that global fascism is not a one time phenomenon reserved to the 1930s and 40s. It's a dangerous ideology that has reared it's head multiple times throughout history and that tends to threaten in multiple places around the world at the same time, and that becomes more and more true as the world globalizes. The Nazis may have been one incidence of fascism and genocide, but they are not, unfortunately, unique. The internet has a bad habit of comparing everything to Nazis, which needs to be curtailed. But the reason it needs to be curtailed is so that, when we are once again looking at the rise of global fascism, such comparisons aren't trivial. Most things shouldn't be compared to Nazis. Critical thinking is what tells us the difference between sports fans holding up the number 1 and a fascistic cult of personality based around white supremacy and conspiracy saluting their leader.

One thing I thing is not critical thinking is assuming that unless people use a certain word to describe a phenomenon the are downplaying how dangerous it is.

I just object to the wholly a-historical notion of this whole obsession with labeling Trumpism as Nazism and I think that it is dangerously ignoring the actual phenomenon that is happening. That's what I'm warning against.

I see it as the same species of thing that leads people down conspiracy rat holes. Looking for clues that seem to show a preconceived idea, finding patterns that lead to a conclusion whether it adds up or not.
 

BlueRidge

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Did I say that?
Others did. There's a conversation going on here.

I saw so many liberal columnists going "oh look Nazism" about that rally it alarmed me. Group think and failure to think. Liberals do it too.


Meanwhile instead of squinting as hard as people can to see Hitler everywhere (on all sides of the political spectrum) I suggest reading about what is happening out there on the far right. Here's a good piece from the NY Times today (gifted): article link.
 

caseyedwards

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So? What’s the answer? There is a nazi fascist movement in America. Is it free speech or is it dangerously criminal. Should people go to jail.
 

caseyedwards

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And then america would invade Italy. Probably would have killed Mussolini if Italians didn’t. Also same with hitler probably. So should america do what it did in Germany and Italy in America and toward trump and q anon? If they are are fascist nazi why should they not be treated like they were during ww2?
 

Susan1

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Acting like people are trivializing the holocaust or WWII is an interesting and incredibly hostile choice. But I guess thanks for thinking of me that way.

You do understand that Hitler didn't start by invading other countries and murdering millions of people. If you wait until something is at the scale of the holocaust to call out the danger means you will always be too late.
At the end of the third episode of Ken Burns' documentary, they compared it to today. And several times said the only way to stop it is before it starts.
 

BlueRidge

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Can we agree that MAGA smells like fascism? Some of them may not be actual Nazis, but they certainly are Fascists

No. :p

I've come to the tentative conclusion that trying to fit the present day to Fascism just diverts us. Feels good to call people Fascists, but there's plenty of other supreme evils that have happened in history. Its ahistorical to fit everything to the same terms.

A few random thoughts.

Why there won't be a new Hitler and Nazism. (Though let's note that there are actual Nazis today who follow Hitler's "thought.") Look at the link I posted earlier of the 1936 Nuremburg rally. That was a phenomenon of a pre-Television era, when propagandists used distinctly different tools. Genocide has arisen in the present day. Did it look like a Nuremburg rally or was it facilitated by Facebook? Think about it. The QAnon phenomenon, which is delusional, dangerous and violent, is a phenomenon of the internet. It is manifesting very differently than anything would in the pre-television, early radio era.

Another thing is that the truth is that fitting the present to a historical pattern is comforting. Because you know how it ends. With Nazism, we know two things that are comforting in different ways: It revealed itself as the ultimate evil, not something anyone could equivocate about, and it was defeated totally by the forces of good.

The present day is by definition beset by uncertainty. We don't know what the future is going to be. We want patterns that we can follow in our minds into the future to a definite end. But we don't get that. We get uncertainty and it is scary.

For a couple of examples of history not ending neatly:

There's a book that came out a couple of years ago by a historian of Fascism called Strongmen. It detailed a bunch of different "strongmen" phenomena. The writer considered Trump in the strongman mold. The writer wrote about Mussolini. Now, we have a political descendant of Mussolini who has just taken over in Italy. Clearly we are on the path to fascism. Except one of the other strongmen she writes a chapter on is Silvio Berlusconi. He took power and then lost power in a democracy and not only that, he's back again and part of the coalition which just won the elections in Italy. So clearly we're back on the path to fascism. Or are we?

Things just don't unfold in a clear neat way. Here's another example. Back in 1990 Nicaragua held a democratic election and Daniel Ortega and the Sandinista communists were defeated and removed from power. Neatly wrapping up a chapter of authoritarian rise and fall. Or not. Daniel Ortega more than thirty years later is back in power in Nicaragua and implementing a totalitarian politics. How will that end? Is it fascism or communism or what?

The world is messy and we don't know what will happen. We need to learn from history. @VGThuy made the point that historical phenomena like dehumanization and racism are very much alive and well. What we learn from studying Hitler is what the worst outcome of allowing dehumanization to run rampant can lead to. We don't have to see the same thing unfolding today to be aware of what can happen and to use lessons from the past to stop the worst from happening.

And obviously people can argue about whether Trumpism is fascism, but I think ultimately its besides the point. I mostly just was unnerved by people seeing Nazism in a rally that didn't look anything like Nazism. But I'll try to bury that bone and move on. :lol:
 
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KCC

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I wonder if people in Florida will try to lure immigrants with construction skills to help rebuild areas hit hard by Ian. It looks like there will be a high demand for laborers and construction workers there, probably for several years.
 

sk9tingfan

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I wonder if people in Florida will try to lure immigrants with construction skills to help rebuild areas hit hard by Ian. It looks like there will be a high demand for laborers and construction workers there, probably for several years.
Ask @RonDeSantis. He has absolutely no understanding of labor economics and the concept of relevant labor pools.
 

once_upon

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I wonder if people in Florida will try to lure immigrants with construction skills to help rebuild areas hit hard by Ian. It looks like there will be a high demand for laborers and construction workers there, probably for several years.
When we were in Appalachicola to Panama City Beach area in January, that had been devastated in Hurricane Michael, help wanted signs were everywhere for construction jobs to rebuild.

No one seemed welcoming to immigrants at that time.
 

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