Insurrectionists and subversives: Trump and his supporters (Thread for all things Trump)

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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70,872
In 2005, former national security advisor Sandy Berger was fined $50,000 because he took copies of one document. I'm pretty sure Trumps 26 boxes of documents, some of them highly classified, "trumps" that. So, it's not as if the DOJ just says, now, now, you know you shouldn't do that.

Trump supporters can believe whatever fantasies they want. But, as Agent Mulder would say, "the truth is out there."

Trump has potentially violated some very serious federal laws. If the documents meet the criteria, than he will be prosecuted. I say potentially because we do have a policy of innocent until proven guilty. He's going to need much better lawyers than Rudy.

But, until the DOJ convenes a grand jury and decides to go to trial, we can only speculate, but I really don't think Garland would have moved if they didn't intend to go all the way. He's too good a prosecutor to do otherwise.
 

caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
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18,024
The defenders can’t do anything if he is jail! Then they all have to move on because politics won’t stop! The republican race can even be about who will pardon him quickest
 

Barbara Manatee

Well-Known Member
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1,921
Informative thread about the the Espionage Act from Asha Rangappa - some highlights:

Unpacking the Espionage Act, 18 U.S.C., Chapter 36. We are concerned here with Section 793 — Gathering, Transmitting, or Losing Defense Information.

Section 793 (and 794, which I briefly note below) of the Espionage Act concern “information related to the national defense.” Importantly, there is no requirement that such information officially be classified. But EVEN IF, somehow, Trump were to successfully argue that he was legally authorized to possess it, the Espionage Act has an identical subsection for that, too

Either way, it is a violation of the Espionage Act to willfully retain such information and fail to turn it over to an official who is lawfully entitled to receive it. Like NARA, when they asked nicely. Or the Counterintelligence and Export Control section of DOJ w subpoena

That is, it appears, what Trump has done…AT A MINIMUM. If he affirmatively conveyed it to a foreign government (no evidence of that, just explaining), it would be a violation of Section 794…which is super serious and can carry the death penalty (see, e.g. Rosenbergs)
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
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13,853
Posting this because it's informative & the topic might come up later when I won't be able to access it:


"Two sections of the Espionage Act (§ 793(d) & (f)) apply even to those lawfully in possession of national security information — and prohibit certain conduct even by those who were entitled to have the underlying material in the first place:"

A link is provided.

----

@once_upon , I think McConnell was seen earlier this week publicly speaking at something about the flooding & asked a question related to the Mar-a-Lago search but declined to speak about it.
 

once_upon

Believer in woman's right to own healthcare decisi
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23,157
@once_upon , I think McConnell was seen earlier this week publicly speaking at something about the flooding & asked a question related to the Mar-a-Lago search but declined to speak about it.
Yes, I was kind of being sarcastic. I'm thinking he might have laid down the law to STFU to all Republicans in Congress.
 

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
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17,599
Graham posted he needs to see the affidavit. That's a reach.
My guess is, he's just moving goal posts but he does know that the affidavit would contain all the underlying evidence and would be even worse for Trump, right? (I mean, from a strictly 'let's see the evidence' standpoint, they can go ahead and release it... :p )
 

Susan1

Well-Known Member
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11,882

Somebody today said it's not like he took them home since he doesn't even live in Chicago (you moron - that part was me). They were for his Presidential library, not his basement. That reminded me of this meme I saw the other day -

Breaking News Trump’s personal library just burned down​


The fire consumed both books and he hasn’t even finished coloring the second one.
 
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Vash01

Fan of Yuzuru, T&M, P&C
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53,573
If he wasn't supposed to have the documents, which he wasn't, what is there to negotiate? There is nothing "ordinary" about misappropriating something (whether intentionally or accidentally) and then doing anything less than immediately surrendering that material once you're asked to do so. That's how this should be framed.

Even if he declassified the material as he may try to claim, under he still wasn't support to have it in his possession.
Someone recently (this week) said- "Stupidity is not an acceptable defense".

Translation - A crime is a crime.
 

caseyedwards

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One of these documents has a classification that can't be viewed outside a SCIF.

There is no way such a document can be declassified without a record being maintained and the original classifying person being informed.

Excuses about Trump declassifying by the book are not credible.
Scifs can be anywhere.
One of these documents has a classification that can't be viewed outside a SCIF.

There is no way such a document can be declassified without a record being maintained and the original classifying person being informed.

Excuses about Trump declassifying by the book are not credible.
Read a book that said scifs can be set up anywhere. They are even fixed locations. Get some soundproofing and a lock and you can turn anything into a scif
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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60,779
I'm not sure what's behind this comment. Should the matter not be pursued because Trump's supporters might act out? That's now law and order, and without law and order, we have no democracy.
No. But acting like he can just be prosecuted with no consequences doesn't make sense.

Without law and order we have no democracy that is true, but Trump and his supporters have been undermining democracy and I just am surprised by comments here that seem to indicate people think that won't continue.

We can't just pretend that Trump can be taken into custody, tried, convicted and punished without a major reaction from the forces that have so far reacted to every corrupt and disruptive thing he has done by attacking the United States of America itself and trying to undermine our constitution.

Its just that I'm concerned about what will happen. Its clear enough that Trump has likely committed some serious breaches of the law and that has to be pursued. But we need to be clear-eyed about what the consequences might be. I mean I keep hoping that this will be the last straw and all but the die-hards will abandon him and we can move on. But how likely is that?
 

caseyedwards

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No. But acting like he can just be prosecuted with no consequences doesn't make sense.

Without law and order we have no democracy that is true, but Trump and his supporters have been undermining democracy and I just am surprised by comments here that seem to indicate people think that won't continue.

We can't just pretend that Trump can be taken into custody, tried, convicted and punished without a major reaction from the forces that have so far reacted to every corrupt and disruptive thing he has done by attacking the United States of America itself and trying to undermine our constitution.

Its just that I'm concerned about what will happen. Its clear enough that Trump has likely committed some serious breaches of the law and that has to be pursued. But we need to be clear-eyed about what the consequences might be. I mean I keep hoping that this will be the last straw and all but the die-hards will abandon him and we can move on. But how likely is that?
If people commit any illegal act they will go to jail. Like if that guy in Cincinnati killed some FBI agents does that mean trump shouldn’t go to jail? That man was ultimately killed in a shootout I believe. But if there is more of that than it will have to be dealt with but before that -prepared for and precautions taken. You need to take all those steps.

Arrest trump
Jail trump
Try trump
And if convicted sent to solitary confinement

It’s done thousands of times a year


In your scenario trump is kept free and everyone hopes Desantis beats him in the primary. What if that doesn’t happen.
 
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Amy L

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7,700
Without law and order we have no democracy that is true, but Trump and his supporters have been undermining democracy and I just am surprised by comments here that seem to indicate people think that won't continue

Its just that I'm concerned about what will happen. Its clear enough that Trump has likely committed some serious breaches of the law and that has to be pursued. But we need to be clear-eyed about what the consequences might be. I mean I keep hoping that this will be the last straw and all but the die-hards will abandon him and we can move on. But how likely is that?

Huh? Who here? Yesterday a dude died trying to storm into an FBI office. Most of us seem to be aware that these incidents will continue. Team Insurrection were calling for the defunding of the FBI and trying to stoke the rabid base into going after the judge that signed the search warrant. The RNC had to tell them to hush because it was about to get worse and it would make them look bad. Earlier today some GOP Congresspeople had a half-assed "But! Hillary!" press conference. They're just regrouping until they can think of another angle to go after, but I don't think there's anyone here that assumes that this cast of knuckleheads will be permanently shut down.
 

Vash01

Fan of Yuzuru, T&M, P&C
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He was the damn president, ignorance doesn’t cut it. If you are the commander in chief you should not get to claim it. It was his duty to know or have those that did.
Sadly his party never confronted him, so he got away with everything he did.
 

BittyBug

Disgusted
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25,021
No. But acting like he can just be prosecuted with no consequences doesn't make sense.

Without law and order we have no democracy that is true, but Trump and his supporters have been undermining democracy and I just am surprised by comments here that seem to indicate people think that won't continue.

We can't just pretend that Trump can be taken into custody, tried, convicted and punished without a major reaction from the forces that have so far reacted to every corrupt and disruptive thing he has done by attacking the United States of America itself and trying to undermine our constitution.
First he would need to be prosecuted - we don't know yet whether charges will be filed.

Do I think there's a risk of wide-spread violence if Trump is charged? Yes. But does that possibility make me think they shouldn't charge him if there is substantial reason? No.

We're in very precarious times, and I think the only rational thing to do is to follow law and order. If the country can't withstand that, we're doomed anyway.
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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60,779
First he would need to be prosecuted - we don't know yet whether charges will be filed.

Do I think there's a risk of wide-spread violence if Trump is charged? Yes. But does that possibility make me think they shouldn't charge him if there is substantial reason? No.

We're in very precarious times, and I think the only rational thing to do is to follow law and order. If the country can't withstand that, we're doomed anyway.
I agree that the Justice department needs to follow the evidence and enforce the law or we are worse off. Its beyond absurd that Trump took and held these highly classified documents; it has endangered the country even if he did nothing with them himself. He held them at a public club without them being properly secured.

It is incredibly sad when unstable people engage in violence and get themselves or others killed, but I don't see that as the threat to the country itself. The threat is if a large chunk of our political class, elected officials, politicians, media commentators etc says Trump did nothing wrong and Biden is abusing power. They are going to bring about a constitutional crisis at some point and blow this country apart.

Trump is who he is, but a whole lot of other people NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY RIGHT NOW AND STOP SUPPORTING TRUMP AND TRUMPISM. The country is at stake.
 

Barbara Manatee

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,921
Without law and order we have no democracy that is true, but Trump and his supporters have been undermining democracy and I just am surprised by comments here that seem to indicate people think that won't continue.

We can't just pretend that Trump can be taken into custody, tried, convicted and punished without a major reaction from the forces that have so far reacted to every corrupt and disruptive thing he has done by attacking the United States of America itself and trying to undermine our constitution.
Nobody is suggesting there won't be a reaction. There will. It is worth worrying about. But not to the point of distraction - the focus belongs on what Trump has done and holding him and everyone else who broke the law accountable.
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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60,779
Thinking about it, Trump's actions are exactly the kind of thing that could ramp up if people on the right follow the rhetoric of delegitimizing government institutions such as the FBI and the Justice Department. Refusing to follow laws and norms, taking possession of property without authorization. This can be the sort of thing that we would see if those on the right believe the rhetoric they are using to defend Trump's action. Things such as taking election files and machines and the like and claiming that any government force that tries to stop that is illegitimate or abusing power.

Trump has set the stage essentially. There's no choice but to follow through on stopping his actions but we just don't know whether this kind of action will multiply.
 

caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
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18,024
I agree that the Justice department needs to follow the evidence and enforce the law or we are worse off. Its beyond absurd that Trump took and held these highly classified documents; it has endangered the country even if he did nothing with them himself. He held them at a public club without them being properly secured.

It is incredibly sad when unstable people engage in violence and get themselves or others killed, but I don't see that as the threat to the country itself. The threat is if a large chunk of our political class, elected officials, politicians, media commentators etc says Trump did nothing wrong and Biden is abusing power. They are going to bring about a constitutional crisis at some point and blow this country apart.

Trump is who he is, but a whole lot of other people NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY RIGHT NOW AND STOP SUPPORTING TRUMP AND TRUMPISM. The country is at stake.
What people? Voters?
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
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13,853

Ex-Wisconsin Supreme Court Justice Behind Partisan Review of the 2020 Election Has Been Fired After a Judge Said His Probe Came Up Empty​


"Wisconsin’s pricey and taxpayer-funded partisan review of the 2020 election collapsed on Friday, as one of the state’s GOP leaders fired the retired judge leading it for providing no results for a lot of money.
 

TOADS

Toad whisperer.....
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20,767
Having had top secret clearances (and higher), there is very strict protocol in handling, transporting and logging such documents plus they have to secured in a high security vault.

If top secret documents were stuffed away in cardboard boxes, he is in deep, deep, deep shit!
 

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