Insurrectionists and subversives: Trump and his supporters (Thread for all things Trump)

ballettmaus

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17,740
I saw someone post a theory that the reason why the FBI went after the documents is because of the deals that Jarrad has done with the Saudis and then the golf tournament last week. Just linking these things together.
Former FBI agent and legal analyst Asha Rangappa said yesterday that it is possible that the national security apparatus has even seen proof that information they think/know was in these documents had been shared (she didn't speculate that it happened, she just pointed out the possibility). I don't have an opinion on that but if what you say is true then what she said might very well be true as well. I hope neither is true and that they simply went after the documents because they were tipped off they were there. At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if any of it turned out to be true.
 

ballettmaus

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When CNN writes Trump will be deposed Wednesday, they mean today, right? Can't they add a date to it to make it clear? https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/10/politics/trump-deposition-ny-attorney-general/index.html

I have a hard time imagining how this will go. I'm hoping that his narcissism will not allow him to plead the 5th and rant about the "illegitimate raid" but I expect he'll be the subdued Trump we got whenever he needed to appear reasonable while President.
 

Susan1

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I have to admit that opening helped calm me a bit. The hysteria and other stuff surrounding the Trump loyalists ready to go to war was amping up my anxiety.
I'm still nervous. Who knows what planning is going on behind the scenes for some future date.
 

Susan1

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I think the rest of us are grateful that he is the AG. And I am sure what he is doing now is much more interesting.
There's an expression "may you live in interesting times". It's not a compliment. My comments were not politically-related. Hence the "ha ha". He's got investigations coming out of his ears and everybody wants him to do everything and solve everything and tell them about it right now. "Only" having to be a SC judge would have been a piece of cake. ;) :lol: :wall:
 

Spikefan

Rooting for that middle-aged team
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3,068
Former FBI agent and legal analyst Asha Rangappa said yesterday that it is possible that the national security apparatus has even seen proof that information they think/know was in these documents had been shared (she didn't speculate that it happened, she just pointed out the possibility).
It does seem odd that they had an idea he still had documents and did nothing until now. Does make you this something happened. However, the documents are in Florida and the golf tournament was in NJ.
 

Reuven

Official FSU Alte Kacher
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Former FBI agent and legal analyst Asha Rangappa said yesterday that it is possible that the national security apparatus has even seen proof that information they think/know was in these documents had been shared
Of course they have been shared. Remember back a few years ago when Japan’s then PM Abe was visiting Mar-A-Lardo? There were missiles launches by North Korea and TDFG started hauling out all these documents at the dinner table, in the public restaurant, with sycophantic tourists snapping pictures all around them? When TDFG hosted Russian foreign minister Lavrov and the Russian Ambassador, in the Oval Office, after he kicked out all the American media and only allowed Russian photographers, and revealed the existence of a top secret programme between the Israelis and the US? If he can use any classified information to gain leverage, he will.
 
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BlueRidge

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This is feeling a bit like September 2019 when the information about Trump's phone call to Ukraine came out.

This FBI search of Mar a Largo better be on that level because it is drawing a great deal of attention back to Trump and energizing his supporters. And that is not what we need.

If this is run-of-the-mill classified documents that should not be there its doing way more harm than good.
 

Cachoo

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9,605
This is feeling a bit like September 2019 when the information about Trump's phone call to Ukraine came out.

This FBI search of Mar a Largo better be on that level because it is drawing a great deal of attention back to Trump and energizing his supporters. And that is not what we need.

If this is run-of-the-mill classified documents that should not be there its doing way more harm than good.
Lock and load baby! Just kidding though I did see someone who is awaiting sentencing for Jan 6 did tweet this out. What an idiot.
 

DORISPULASKI

Watching submarine races
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It does seem odd that they had an idea he still had documents and did nothing until now. Does make you this something happened. However, the documents are in Florida and the golf tournament was in NJ.
They got 10-12 boxes of stuff in this raid, according 5 the WSJ. They had listed some 100 pages of items on their request for a search warrant. It took them this long to catalog all the stuff in the 15 boxes they got from Trump in 2021, and then figure out what was missing. Once they knew what was missing, they waited until Trump & his Secret Service agents & entourage were out of town. Perhaps Saudi, perhaps China was the final straw.
 
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BlueRidge

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Lock and load baby! Just kidding though I did see someone who is awaiting sentencing for Jan 6 did tweet this out. What an idiot.
I'm less concerned with the threats of violence, although the likelihood is raised that someone will act on these, than I am the energizing of Donald Trump and the Trumpian political forces in myriad ways.
They got 10-12 boxes of stuff in this raid, according 5 the WSJ. They had listed some 100 pages of items they listed on the request for a search warrant. It took them this long to catalog all the stuff in the 15 boxes they got from Trump in 2021, and then figure out what was missing. Once they knew what was missing, they waited until Trump & his Secret Service agents & entourage were out of town. Perhaps Saudi, perhaps China was the final straw.
It does seem like there must be something really serious in what was missing and perhaps what has been done with something classified.

As I say there darn well better be because otherwise its just handed the Trump forces a big boost.
 

VGThuy

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I'm less concerned with the threats of violence, although the likelihood is raised that someone will act on these, than I am the energizing of Donald Trump and the Trumpian political forces in myriad ways.

It does seem like there must be something really serious in what was missing and perhaps what has been done with something classified.

As I say there darn well better be because otherwise its just handed the Trump forces a big boost.
I just like to compare and contrast this post with all the posts @ballettmaus has been making.

As a reminder (not to you @BlueRidge), prosecutors have huge discretion as to when to execute warrants and prosecute a case. They usually wait until it is strategically good to do so and not just go after every little lead as too much of that will be careless, will undermine the case, and can look like a fishing expedition absent probable cause which will feed right into Trump’s victimization complex and it would make it much easier to buy into. Look at what some fake “moderates” reaction was when this carefully orchestrated action happened. Garland is no fool and is very familiar with the prosecutorial process. In fact, his “understanding” of prosecutors and the state’s side in these sorts of criminal proceedings/procedure was a big criticism of his from the left who felt he may have been biased towards prosecutorial agencies in his criminal Justice ideology.
 
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once_upon

Enough
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24,071
It does seem odd that they had an idea he still had documents and did nothing until now. Does make you this something happened. However, the documents are in Florida and the golf tournament was in NJ.
The theories I've read (cant remember which, i read Washington Post, New York Times, Atlantic, Reuters, CNN, MSNBC or multiple):

The FBI, JOD had been working since spring with Trump's legal team and had just reached an impasse

Something about 90 days pre midterms and restrictions to data confiscation. Monday was 91 or 92 days before mid term elections

An insider providing more proof of destruction of documents being or about to be destroyed

Exact location of the higher than top security level, a level so high it can't be discuss or known, was given to FBI by high level informant

Extremely high level threat to National Security disclosed by an informant

My guess-all of the above.
 

VGThuy

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In Trump’s latest social media post on that platform he’s allowed to use, he presented the idea of “planting” evidence. That must mean there’s evidence to be found and that was found. It’s one of his biggest unintended admissions, and there’s been a lot of those.
 

VGThuy

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When CNN writes Trump will be deposed Wednesday, they mean today, right? Can't they add a date to it to make it clear? https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/10/politics/trump-deposition-ny-attorney-general/index.html

I have a hard time imagining how this will go. I'm hoping that his narcissism will not allow him to plead the 5th and rant about the "illegitimate raid" but I expect he'll be the subdued Trump we got whenever he needed to appear reasonable while President.
Yes today. He already invoked his 5th Amendment right to not self-incriminate himself.

 

sk9tingfan

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Yes today. He already invoked his 5th Amendment right to not self-incriminate himself.

Of course, Trump; took the fifth:


NEW YORK (
@AP
) — Donald Trump says he invoked Fifth Amendment, declined to answer questions during testimony in NY civil investigation.
 

VGThuy

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This is rationale:

Trump issued a statement shortly after the questioning began confirming that he was going to decline to answer questions from the attorney general. In the statement, Trump noted that he once asked, “If you’re innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?” He then added, “Now I know the answer to that question. When your family, your company, and all the people in your orbit have become the targets of an unfounded, politically motivated Witch Hunt supported by lawyers, prosecutors, and the Fake News Media, you have no choice.”

Further:

Trump, in defending his decision to invoke his Constitutional right against self-incrimination, said, “I have absolutely no choice because the current Administration and many prosecutors in this Country have lost all moral and ethical bounds of decency.” He added, “Under the advice of my counsel and for all of the above reasons, I declined to answer the questions under the rights and privileges afforded to every citizen under the United States Constitution.”

Imagine if Hillary Clinton had said any of the above. She would have been tarred and feathered as "guilty", I mean even more than she was already and is now.
 

DORISPULASKI

Watching submarine races
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It is clear Trump took some 27 boxes of government records. If any of the listed hyper secret records are in any of the new boxes, it is worse. Trump was in violation of the presidential records act of 1978 for taking even a single page. If he showed any of this stuff to anyone else, including any member of the media, he could be subject to the Espionage Act. I am thinking Hannity or Alex Jones

If I remember Reality Winner's case. She sent a report to the Intercept and got sent to jail for a felony.

But all that is needed is the Presidential Records Act, which he has clearly violated, and a conviction of a felony.

It then provides a fine and/or jail time, plus never being able to run for office again.

Both the Espionage Act and records acts have been used by DoJ before, so unlike many other odd statutes, they have been thoroughly tested, even with respect to a president.

Next best thing to conviction on an impeachment.

Fine him $1000 per document. 100 pages of documents, at about 25 documents per page is $2,500,000, lots more if you include the other 15 boxes. And he can never run again, at least federally.

There is no Trump in jail with Secret Service agents problem. There will be no Free Trump protests. Even SCOTUS cannot deny he took at least 15 boxes of stuff.

If anything is missing from the Archivist's list, he destroyed some
documents, btw, which is also bad.

The law was designed for a president like Nixon.

Perfect if it works.
 

BlueRidge

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Perfect if it works.
What do you think the response of the Republican Party, the Trump supporters, and also the far right will be if this happens?

I'm not feeling like they all just say, oh Trump did wrong and deserved this.

(Not saying it shouldn't happen, just frightened of what is to come if Trump is really going to be taken down.)
 

Dobre

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14,289
I'm less concerned with the threats of violence, although the likelihood is raised that someone will act on these, than I am the energizing of Donald Trump and the Trumpian political forces in myriad ways.
If it wasn't this, it would be something else. Possibly something a lot less cut & dried.

He is under at least 4 investigations at once, and odds are that the Georgia one is close to calling his name.
 

caseyedwards

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18,257
This is rationale:



Further:



Imagine if Hillary Clinton had said any of the above. She would have been tarred and feathered as "guilty", I mean even more than she was already and is now.
But only among republicans and Hillary haters. No democrats would have cared
 

VGThuy

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But only among republicans and Hillary haters. No democrats would have cared
Did you not see the Bernie voters and other Democrats who openly campaigned against her and was against her candidacy during the 2016 election? Or did you just forget? They pushed the "Crooked Hillary" message too. Not saying they were wrong to do so if they truly believed it, but she was NOT getting the benefit of the doubt from a lot of the Democrats, especially those on the left. As a member of the far left, I've seen it first-hand. It's that lack of backing the final horse that is one of the Dems' biggest criticisms in terms of "winning" elections compared to the Republicans where they can seriously insult each other, make fun of the other candidate's spouses, and do the most immature and insulting things to one another, but then they all pretend none of that happened once one of them is chosen. Then if one of them wins, well...they all wait in line to kiss the ass of that candidate who've they spent a year insulting and disparaging and lose all sense of personal integrity, ethics, and any idea of fair play or justice in order to perform the twisted logic and mental gymnastics that is required to blindly follow the dear leader.
 

caseyedwards

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Maybe they'll stay home on election night 2024 because to them, no other candidate will be legitimate, especially the Republican they didn't choose or want to be the Republican candidate (most likely DeSantis).
Probably2022 too look how the whole senate Republican leadership is firmly on the side of the FBI. That means republicans in DC are working with the FBI to put trump in prison
 
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caseyedwards

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Did you not see the Bernie voters and other Democrats who openly campaigned against her and was against her candidacy during the 2016 election? Or did you just forget? They pushed the "Crooked Hillary" message too. Not saying they were wrong to do so if they truly believed it, but she was NOT getting the benefit of the doubt from a lot of the Democrats, especially those on the left. As a member of the far left, I've seen it first-hand.
Small potatoes ultimately. In November 2016 she won the election. So it was only because she never went to Michigan or Wisconsin that she lost
 

VGThuy

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Small potatoes ultimately. In November 2016 she won the election. So it was only because she never went to Michigan or Wisconsin that she lost
That wasn't the point. The point was that she ended up losing to a candidate that she shouldn't have lost to and her overall numbers suffered because more Dems stayed home than they should have and so-called moderates ignored the blatant racism, sexism, ableism, and downright incompetence of the other candidate when they voted for him all because she was not given the benefit-of-the-doubt and was persecuted in many fishing expeditions and had so much mud slung her way that came out of nowhere in a way beyond what Trump imagines he is going through now.

The fact is, policy-wise, this country is actually a lot more left than our representatives have lead the rest of the world and even our own citizens to believe because of the systems put in place (single-member district/winner-take-all, electoral college) ensure the will of the majority isn't followed. That said, even with that, Hillary managed to lose huge numbers she should have gotten because of optics and all the crap thrown at her. Then Comey, etc. It really was supposed to be a blow-out.

Yes, her campaigned in the Midwest states should have been a priority, but you're dreaming if all that "Crooked Hillary" crap had no part to play. It was a major influencing factor among other things.
 
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DORISPULASKI

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What do you think the response of the Republican Party, the Trump supporters, and also the far right will be if this happens?

I'm not feeling like they all just say, oh Trump did wrong and deserved this.

(Not saying it shouldn't happen, just frightened of what is to come if Trump is really going to be taken down.)
I think the fact that very few protesters showed up at Mar a Lago yesterday is hopeful.

It is more hard to get worked up about stealing records, if no jail time is involved, than any 1/6 issue. He gave back 15 boxes of records. Of course he stole records. He didn't give back 10 or 12 boxes, so of course he was even more in violation. Some records identified by the archivist are missing. The presidential records act of 1978 makes him responsible for maintenance of all presidential records, so he is responsible for that too.

The time for Trumpists to get violent is when they find out he can't run again, but that is not now.

With any luck, a deal will be made to drop the fine and jail, and he agrees to not run for office

I do not see anything that might work better to keep Trump from running while creating minimal havoc in the streets
 

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