bardtoob
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Gymnastics Event Finals - Men's PB, Women's BB, Men's HB, Women's FX
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BaileyCatts
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Today on Good Morning America, right at the start, I was barely awake and heard them talking something gymnastics related. Did something new happen that it was being talked right at the start of the show? That is usually when they do their big news stories but I was still barely awake to hear it all.
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Rob
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Theatregirl1122
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I'm not sure I understand what that is supposed to be saying? How does a meeting with the Swiss federal tribunal result in a conversation between USAG, IOC, and FIG? I don't get how the Swiss federal tribunal and this meeting are related.
Also confused about what conversation with the Swiss Federal Tribunal this even was
kwanfan1818
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I thought it was a filing to supercede CAS's decision on the grounds that Chiles' rights had been violated by a Swiss-based body. That's been the basis on which other CAS decisions were overruled.
Rob
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That is what Chiles appeal is about (not having proper notice/time to prepare evidence for the CAS hearing, conflict of interest of CAS panel etc) but I thought Voineas is about reversing the .1 OOB deduction that would require reversing precedent on field of play decisions and would require the Swiss court to review video and basically rejudge the event. Most of the articles I have read say that legal experts in this area believe the Swiss court will not reverse this precedent or take on de novo review. So this Romanian request for a meeting is perhaps about giving FIG one last chance to remedy the situation before Romania proceeds to drag FIG through the mud (and US drags CAS through the mud) even though Romania at least likely will not win? It seems FIG is already publicly muddy and has done nothing for Voinea or Chiles.
Theatregirl1122
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That's what USAG and Chiles will be appealing on. I do not believe they have filed yet.
This meeting seems to be with FRG. They made a filing about Voinea. We know that her initial appeal to CAS was about the 0.001 OOB call, but not the subject of her filing. We don't know why there was a meeting or if it was about this filing.
Rob
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Theatregirl1122
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No, just that they think CAS is wrong and they want 3 medals. Of course Sabrina's team wants three medals. That's the only way any medal goes to her. If there's 1-2, it's definitely not her.
What do they think the CAS got wrong? Her case was pretty cut and dry. It was a field of play decision. They had the right to inquiry about it. They didn't.
Rob
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Maybe Romanian Fed once had the power to broker a deal like this, but doesn't seem like they do now.
bardtoob
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My uneducated opinion is that USA Gymnastics has the strongest "legal" case. Romanian Gymnastics, realizing this, is trying to get the best outcome possible for their athletes, despite the IOC's virtual ban on shared medals in judged sports.
Keep in mind that I think it is quite possible that a competition rescoring could yield a 5th place finish for Jordan, but there is no avenue for a rescoring and there were failures to challenge the scores on the field of play by Romanian Gymnastics, which had more time to challenge than USA Gymnastics, and then Romanian Gymnastics pushed for an inherently flawed legal process with CAS.
Keep in mind that I think it is quite possible that a competition rescoring could yield a 5th place finish for Jordan, but there is no avenue for a rescoring and there were failures to challenge the scores on the field of play by Romanian Gymnastics, which had more time to challenge than USA Gymnastics, and then Romanian Gymnastics pushed for an inherently flawed legal process with CAS.
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Firedancer
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Jordan Chiles has appealed to the Swiss Federal Tribunal:
The appeal apparently relies on video shot for the Simone Biles docuseries. The video reportedly shows that Cecile Landi made the inquiry 49 seconds after Jordan's score was announced.
The way that CAS (mis)handled the matter is ridiculous in multiple ways, including the failure to provide adequate notice about multiple things, including an arbitrator's conflict of interest:
Footage for Simone Biles' Netflix doc could be smoking gun in Jordan Chiles' medal appeal
If Jordan Chiles gets to keep her Olympic bronze medal, she might have Simone Biles − and her Netflix documentary − to thank.
www.yahoo.com
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Theatregirl1122
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I would say the appeal includes the video footage but doesn't rely on it? The appeal has to show procedural errors, so the video shows that they could have produced evidence that would materially have affected the result IF they were given due process. In order to get it sent back to CAS, they have to prove violations of due process.
Their claims on that front are:
The lawyers in here can comment, but in US courts, generally for an appeal you have to show that 1. you were not granted due process, and 2. had you been granted due process, you could have produced evidence that would have resulted in a different outcome. Essentially the video is addressing part 2.
Also, based on what is being reported about the transcript, some aspects of the CAS report are pretty misleading. For example, they said that no one disputed the omega time, when apparently there was extensive discussion of the fact that there would be a delay between the verbal report and the recorded time.
Their claims on that front are:
- All of the information was sent to incorrect email addresses. The incorrect email addresses produce errors when you email them, so it would have been obvious the communication was not getting through.
- Because of this, Jordan's team and USAG did not find out about the hearing until less than 24 hours in advance (they claim in the filing they had about 3 hours), at which point they had to secure council and prepare a defense. Due to to short notice, they did not have the time to do the appropriate evidence gathering and did not find out about the video until the day after the hearing.
- When they were finally contacted, the information was forwarded to them without the attachments, including the attachment showing the conflict of interest of panel president Hamid G. Gharavi, who had served as counsel for the Romanian Government multiple times and was representing them as recently as June. These were multi-million dollar cases.
- As a result, when they were asked if they objected to the composition of the panel, CAS claimed in it's report that they did not object. They had no grounds on which to object as they did not have the information and it wasn't presented in the hearing.
The lawyers in here can comment, but in US courts, generally for an appeal you have to show that 1. you were not granted due process, and 2. had you been granted due process, you could have produced evidence that would have resulted in a different outcome. Essentially the video is addressing part 2.
Also, based on what is being reported about the transcript, some aspects of the CAS report are pretty misleading. For example, they said that no one disputed the omega time, when apparently there was extensive discussion of the fact that there would be a delay between the verbal report and the recorded time.
Karen-W
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Here's video/audio of the inquiry - Cecile clearly made the verbal request, not once but twice, within the 1 minute mark.
Theatregirl1122
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So just to sum it all up, Jordan was stripped of her medal, but the video evidence clearly shows she rightfully won it and should have been the sole holder of the medal.
Vagabond
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Lawyer with a comment here.
That really isn't how most appeals in U.S. courts work.
Theatregirl1122
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Lawyer with a comment here.
That really isn't how most appeals in U.S. courts work.
Okay, can you clarify then? Because that has been my understanding from listening to other lawyers discuss appeals. Just saying it doesn't work that way doesn't really explain anything at all.
Another lawyer here. There are lots of different decisions a person or entity can appeal. Most of them aren't about due process. And there is a very wide range of issues in all the other appeals. Answering your question would take volumes and volumes and isn't particularly relevant to this thread. Suffice it to say that your original post definitely was incorrect.
Coco
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I think what @Theatregirl1122 has heard is what is required specifically to appeal an arbitrator's decision, or at least what is required to appeal a CAS decision.
Simone411
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This is a slideshow from Sports Unlimited News.
sportsunlimitednews.com
Simone Biles may have wrongfully been robbed of another gold Olympic medal |
ilovesalchows
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Simone's response is basically that Andrade deserved it anyway, and she is moving on.
Simone411
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Yes, Simone is moving on because she felt Andrade deserved the gold medal. But Simone also said, “Upsetting how it wasn’t processed but I’m not mad at the results.”
skatfan
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FIG is looking worse and worse the more we see. Gymcastic notes that an inquiry is supposed to be signed by the coach according to the rules but none of that happened in Paris. That would have clarified whether an inquiry was submitted.
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Rob
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How could they mess this up so badly when inquiries are made in nearly all of the Rhythmic performances - they know how to do this!
Simone411
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I know Simone has let it go and moved on, but she's still supporting Jordan and made the comment, “BUT JUSTICE FOR JORDAN ya hear me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
This is another article from People Magazine that's similar to other articles.
The reason I feel this investigation must proceed ahead is because of judges' screw ups, and how on earth it could have happened. I'm thinking of the future for Gymnastics.
The gymnasts work hard, and practice like hell for Nationals, Worlds and the Olympics. They deserve to have judges that know what they're doing. Otherwise, it will be a hopeless case in the future. How will these gymnasts be able to trust the judges to be fair in the future? The answer to the question is that they won't be able to trust the judges.
Rob
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Of course, the appellate rules of different countries can be...different. In the US courts, grounds for appeal include admissibility of evidence/lack of evidence supporting a finding of the trial court, Constitutionality, procedural errors, abuse of judicial discretion, ineffective assistance of counsel, jury misconduct, lack of jurisdiction, newly discovered evidence (or evidence hid from a party) that can change the outcome of a case. But it is not a second bite at presenting the whole case - if there are significant factual or procedural errors, the appeals court would likely remand the case to the trial court with instructions.
In the US, appeals of arbitral awards are often waived by the parties so the arbitrators' decision can be binding. This is generally a matter of contract between the parties. If an appeal is allowed, it is not a complete representation of the case - grounds have to be based on fraud or corruption or partiality, corruption or misconduct of the arbitrator (which can include refusal to consider evidence), abuse of discretion/arbitrator exceeding his powers. The appellate body would vacate or set aside the arbitrators award, not render a decision on the merits.
According to the link below, "Judicial recourse to the Swiss Federal Tribunal is allowed on a very limited number of grounds, such as lack of jurisdiction, violation of elementary procedural rules (e.g. violation of the right to a fair hearing) or incompatibility with public policy."
Frequently Asked Questions
Since I am not a Swiss lawyer (I am US), this article discusses appeals of CAS decisions: https://academic.oup.com/jids/article/1/1/217/879395?login=false#SEC2
kwanfan1818
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I wonder if the on-prem panel’s Valieva decision could have been appealed through the taking parties by surprise section “However, the arbitral tribunal may not take the parties by surprise by applying legal provisions or principles that neither party could reasonably have expected it to apply.166” when they inserted protections into the WADA rules that weren’t there.
